Zane Hodges has passed and recieved his rewards...

[TCGreek]

Therefore will it be safe to say that you believe unless there was faith in the elect sinner first, then the blood of Christ is ineffective ? The finished work meant nothing for the sinner unless his faith first came into play ? If so, then we go back full circle to Romans 3:3 - "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"

Pinoybaptist,

If we let Scripture speak, then sinners who trust Jesus for salvation have the blood applied to them and are thereby redeemed.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Therefore will it be safe to say that you believe unless there was faith in the elect sinner first, then the blood of Christ is ineffective ? The finished work meant nothing for the sinner unless his faith first came into play ?

The finished work of Christ at Calvary ensures the salvation of the elect, who will certainly believe.

If so, then we go back full circle to Romans 3:3 - "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"

The point here has nothing to do with the salvation of unbelievers. It has to do with the fact that Israel's unbelief does not mean God is unfaithful. It seems to point exactly to the opposite of your position.

 

[Martin]

You might want to check a bit further before lumping all the above together in one group in one 'pigeonhole.' It is not an accurate classification.

Ed

Why not?

What do you believe is the differences between Charlie Bing, Bob Wilkin, and Zane Hodges?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Martin,

You said...

What did Paul say?

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" -Rom 10:9

"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..." -1Cor 15:1-4"

Those are great scriptures. But here are several scriptures that clearly state that eternal salvation is based solely and simply on the condition of faith or belief in Christs promise to save, with absolutely no requirment to acknowledge or promise anything else...

* John 1: 12.."But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name"

* Gal 2:16..."knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

* Gal 3:11..."But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith."

* Gal 3: 14..."that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

* Eph 1: 13-14..."13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

* Eph 2: 8-9..."For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast."

* Eph 3: 16-17..."that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith;"

* John 7: 37-39..."On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

* John 17:20..."20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[a] believe in Me through their word;"

* Acts 8: 9-13...9 "there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, 10 to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the great power of God.” 11 And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. 12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done."

* Acts 26: 17-18...17 " will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now[a] send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’"

* Romans 1:16-17..."16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,[a] for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”"

* Romans 3: 21-22..."but now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[a] who believe For there is no difference;"

* Romans 4: 4-6...4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works"

No doctrinal quiz to pass. No surrendering to Christs Lordship. No promising obedience. No calling Him Lord, even.

Notice that according to Paul one must believe in the substitutionary death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

Ummm...but Paul wrote many of the passages of scripture I posted, and according to the passages of scripture I quoted, thats not true.

There was nothing about believing in the substitutionaty death and resurrection or Christ in any of the passages I posted.

What was required was sincere belief, or faith, and Christs promise to save them.

And....ETERNAL SALVATION IS PROMISED.

The sole condition in every case was FAITH in Christs promise, or BELIEF in Christs promise.



Regarding belief in the Lord Jesus Christs substitionary death and resurrection, you say.....

Wilkin denies that.

No he doesnt. Just like I dont deny it.. And here is why:

When someone places their faith in Christ they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is called "the Teacher". The Holy Spirit will do more than simply secure the new believer for eternity. He will also begin to open the new born believers eyes to truth.

So...when the new believer reads, or is taught, about Christs Divinity, His substitutionary death and resurrection, etc etc, *OF COURSE* he will immedietly believe!

The switch has been turned on. The eyes have been opened. The Holy Spirit is present.

OF COURSE he will believe it!

"Wilkin said (in part) "What about...Jesus' bodily resurrection, Jesus' post-resurrection appearances, Jesus' substitutionary death on the cross...and so on? Knowing these things certainly makes it easier to believe in Jesus for eternal life. But does it follow that we must believe these things to be saved? No." . In that statement Bob Wilkin denied that a person must believe in the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross and the resurrection in order to be saved."

Well, I just gave you 14 passages of scripture, and I could have given pages more, where the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ, as well as His Lordship was NEVER mentioned...and yet...as important as all those truths are....eternal salvation is promised!

"Yet, as I showed, Scripture clearly states that one must believe in the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross and the resurrection in order to be saved."

And if someone believes that right off the bat, Praise the Lord!

But if they dont...and they are born again through faith (or belief) in Christs promise of salvation alone...then they will believe those things in due time afterwords.

Either way, they ARE going to believe those things.

"Bob Wilkin is teaching a heresy that we call the "crossless gospel"."

So far I have seen absolutely no evidence of that.


:godisgood:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Martin,

Something that just came to my mind here.

Of course, Jesus Christ is Lord all the time. We dont "make" Him Lord. He IS our Lord, whether we like it or not. (and I like it!)

But dont you think, that if a lost person is willing to place their eternal destiny, and escape from damnation, completely in the hands of a person they have never phyically seen, and who physically left this earth 2000 years ago...its pretty much a foregone conclusion that that person is considering that one to be "Lord"?


:godisgood:

 

[Martin]

Those are great scriptures. But here are several scriptures that clearly state that eternal salvation is based solely and simply on the condition of faith or belief in Christs promise to save, with absolutely no requirment to acknowledge or promise anything else...

==I always find it a bit troubling when someone says something along the lines of "I know that is what Scripture says, but...". You have just, in a single stroke, cancelled out the whole picture that Scripture paints. I showed you what Scripture said about the Gospel (1Cor 15:1-4, Rom 10:9, Lk 24:46-47, Acts 17:30-31, 26:17-23, etc). We could even look to John 3:16 and other such passages. To be saved a person must believe that Christ died for thier sins and rose again on the third day. That is what Scripture means when it tells people to believe in the Lord Jesus. Telling people to believe "in Christs promise to save" while leaving out the cross and the empty tomb is not giving people the Biblical Gospel (that saves).

No doctrinal quiz to pass. No surrendering to Christs Lordship. No promising obedience. No calling Him Lord, even.

==Nobody said anything about a "doctrinal quiz" that must be passed. Believing in the death of Christ on the cross for our sins and that He rose on the third day is hardly a "doctrinal quiz". It is the Biblical requirements for salvation. It is what is meant when Scripture says "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31). How do I know? The statements that define what that faith believes. You are basing your position on part of the Scriptures. To rightly divide the Word of truth you must take the whole witness of Scripture into consideration.

You say that submitting to the Lordship of Christ is not a part of true saving faith. Yet it is Scripture that says to be saved a person must "confess...Jesus as Lord" (Rom 10:9). Confess is to agree, Lord is a master. True saving faith confesses that Jesus is Lord, it agrees that He is the Master.

You say that submitting to the Lordship of Christ is not part of true saving faith, yet it was the Lord Jesus Himself who warned that His sheep (true believers) follow Him (Jn 10:27). In order to "follow Him" we must die to ourselves. Christ warned:

"If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me." -Luke 9:23

Christians are those who have by faith turned to Christ as their Lord (and Savior). Those who want salvation without Christ's Lordship will get neither.

The extreme non-Lordship position of Hodges, Wilkin, Bing, and Evans will be the reason hundreds (if not thousands) of people spend eternity in hell. While on earth Christ warned about the dangers of shallow faith or light hearted commitment. The extreme non-Lordship folks have ignored that warning. It sounds like you are among those who have ignored our Lord's warning about that. I pray I am wrong.

Ummm...but Paul wrote many of the passages of scripture I posted, and according to the passages of scripture I quoted, thats not true.

==But according to the passages I quoted, it is true. We could go around that circle all day and night. What we must do is take all of Scripture and not just isolated verses. See above.

There was nothing about believing in the substitutionaty death and resurrection or Christ in any of the passages I posted.

==But there is in plenty of other passages such as 1Cor. 15:1-4 where Paul defines the Gospel He preached. Maybe yours is different from Paul's?

Again we must take the whole picture and not just one part.

No he doesnt. Just like I dont deny it.. And here is why:

==Wilkin, like you, denies that a person must believe in the death and resurrection of Christ in order to be saved.

When someone places their faith in Christ they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is called "the Teacher". The Holy Spirit will do more than simply secure the new believer for eternity. He will also begin to open the new born believers eyes to truth.
So...when the new believer reads, or is taught, about Christs Divinity, His substitutionary death and resurrection, etc etc, *OF COURSE* he will immedietly believe!

==Yet Scripture tells us that one must believe those things to be saved (see above). Saving faith is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9, Heb 12:2, 1Pet 1:21, 1Cor 1:26-31, Phil 1:29, 2Tim 2:24-25, etc).

Well, I just gave you 14 passages of scripture, and I could have given pages more, where the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ, as well as His Lordship was NEVER mentioned...and yet...as important as all those truths are....eternal salvation is promised!

==That is very twisted logic. You seem to be saying that because more Scriptures don't mention it than do then it is not required. Yet all Scripture is from God and all of it must be taken into consideration.

But if they dont...and they are born again through faith (or belief) in Christs promise of salvation alone...then they will believe those things in due time afterwords.

==A person who does not believe in Christ's finished work has not believed the Gospel and is not saved (Rom 10:9, 1Cor 15:2).

 

[Pastor Larry]

No doctrinal quiz to pass. No surrendering to Christs Lordship. No promising obedience. No calling Him Lord, even.

Curious as to why you omitted verses like Acts 16:31, Romans 10:9-10, Romans 10:13?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Martin,

"The extreme non-Lordship position of Hodges, Wilkin, Bing, and Evans will be the reason hundreds (if not thousands) of people spend eternity in hell. While on earth Christ warned about the dangers of shallow faith or light hearted commitment. The extreme non-Lordship folks have ignored that warning. It sounds like you are among those who have ignored our Lord's warning about that. I pray I am wrong."

I have been familiar with Zane Hodges for many years from reading two of his books. Both were just excellant. Very rich and very edifying. Filled with strong biblical truth. I am SHOCKED to see this dear brother labeled a heretic. Regarding GES, I have fairly recently been made aware of their web-site, and so far everything I have read is just fine as far as I am concerned. As I said before, I hear these things in church (Baptist) from time to time and they get lots of "Amen, brother!" comments from those in attendance.

"We could go around that circle all day and night. What we must do is take all of Scripture and not just isolated verses."

Well, I agree completely. But so far I have given you 14 passages of scripture that place the condition for salvation being "faith in Christ's promise alone" or "belief in Christs promise alone", while you are standing on your 1 passage of scripture about having to add some things to faith or belief alone.

Why are you asking me to interpret my 14 passages of scripture in light of your 1 passage, rather than you interpret your 1 passage in light of my 14?

And let me just mention this again....the reason I am somewhat sympathetic to the views of these brothers in Christ at GES is due to my personal experience. When all those christians were witnessing to me those many years ago, nobody ever confronted me with inquiries like...

"Friend, this is very important. Do you confess Jesus as your Lord right now!. Do you understand his substitutionary death and resurrection for you right now! You cant be born again without believing those! Do you confess it? Do you?"

They simply shared with me that Jesus Christ was my answer for everything. Eternal salvation, freedom from sin, an abundant life here and now, etc. All through faith alone, and resulting in the new birth.

In due time I came to the end of my running from God. I gave up, and called on Christ. And I was WONDERFULLY and JOYFULLY born again of the Spirit of God, and my life has never been the same since. And I have been basically a "scripture sponge" all these years as well. Feeding on the scriptures, and growing in grace and truth for decade after decade.

So brother...I am living proof that the type of evangelism you are saying doesnt work...DOES!


:godisgood:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Pastor Larry,

"Curious as to why you omitted verses like Acts 16:31, Romans 10:9-10, Romans 10:13?"

Great passages...

"So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

"For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

:godisgood:

 

[Pastor Larry]

Great passages...

All of which speak of Jesus as Lord being part of saving faith, and thus disproving your notion (and Hodge's as well). The Bible clearly includes the lordship of Christ as a part of saving faith. Hodges did not.

 

[Martin]

I have been familiar with Zane Hodges for many years from reading two of his books. Both were just excellant. Very rich and very edifying. Filled with strong biblical truth. I am SHOCKED to see this dear brother labeled a heretic.

==And it is not just so-called "Lordship" folks like myself calling Hodges on the carpet (so to speak). Even "freegrace" folks are warning about the dangers of GES...

"Their view is not another flavor. Their view is not an alternative interpretation. Hodges and the GES are not in mild error between the division of labors of elders and deacons. They have abandoned the faith by clever arguments. And they are heretics." -SOURCE

Regarding GES, I have fairly recently been made aware of their web-site, and so far everything I have read is just fine as far as I am concerned. As I said before, I hear these things in church (Baptist) from time to time and they get lots of "Amen, brother!" comments from those in attendance.

==From reading your replies (etc) I can see where you would not have any problems with GES.

Well, I agree completely. But so far I have given you 14 passages of scripture that place the condition for salvation being "faith in Christ's promise alone" or "belief in Christs promise alone", while you are standing on your 1 passage of scripture about having to add some things to faith or belief alone.

==I am not sure how that statement proves your agreement with what I said. In fact, it seems you are doing the exact thing I cautioned against. If you would go back you would find that my position is not based on one "isolated" text, but on the whole testimony of Scripture. Of course salvation is by faith in Christ alone. Nobody disputes that. The issue of debate is the substance of that faith. Scripture teaches that "believing in Christ" is not just believing that He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him but it is also believing in His Lordship, His death on the cross for our sins and His resurrection. Take those things out and there is no more good news (Acts 17:29-31, Rom 10:9, 1Cor 15:1-3, Lk 24:46-47, etc). I would like to see you deal with passages like 1Cor. 15:1-3 where Paul describes the Gospel he preached as including the death and resurrection of Christ. I would like to see you deal with his ministry in the book of Acts where it is recorded on several occasions that he preached the very same Gospel he spoke of in 1Cor 15:1-3 (Acts 13:23-39, 17:1-5, 17:22-31, 23:6, etc). Your position subtracts from what people are required to believe (about Christ) in order to be saved.

Why are you asking me to interpret my 14 passages of scripture in light of your 1 passage, rather than you interpret your 1 passage in light of my 14?

==I am asking you to take the whole council of Scripture into consideration instead of isolating your pet verses and ignoring the others.

And let me just mention this again....the reason I am somewhat sympathetic to the views of these brothers in Christ at GES is due to my personal experience. When all those christians were witnessing to me those many years ago, nobody ever confronted me with inquiries like...

==Let's see what you said they failed to mention:

"Do you confess Jesus as your Lord right now"

==Paul said "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9). So if they failed to mention Christ's Lordship to you that was a major failure on their part.

"Do you understand his substitutionary death and resurrection for you right now"

==Paul said that the Gospel he preached included the death of Christ for our sins according to the Scriptures and the resurrection (1Cor 15:1-3). If they left out the cross, if they left out the resurrection, then they failed to preach the Biblical Gospel. You may have been saved notwithstanding their failures but that does not change the fact that they failed to obey the Scriptures.

Besides all of that, we judge truth by Scripture and not experience. After all salvation is of the Lord, it is a work of the Lord, and not the work of man. But that does not change the fact that they did not faithfully preach the whole council of God.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Pastor Larry,

"The Bible clearly includes the lordship of Christ as a part of saving faith."

Then you must deny all of the scriptures I posted...

"* John 1: 12.."But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name"

* Gal 2:16..."knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

* Gal 3:11..."But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith."

* Gal 3: 14..."that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

* Eph 1: 13-14..."13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

* Eph 2: 8-9..."For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast."

* Eph 3: 16-17..."that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith;"

* John 7: 37-39..."On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

* John 17:20..."20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[a] believe in Me through their word;"

* Acts 8: 9-13...9 "there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, 10 to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the great power of God.” 11 And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. 12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done."

* Acts 26: 17-18...17 " will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now[a] send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’"

* Romans 1:16-17..."16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,[a] for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”"

* Romans 3: 21-22..."but now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[a] who believe For there is no difference;"

* Romans 4: 4-6...4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works"

One of the most important principles in interpreting the scriptures, Larry, is letting the scriptures interpret themselves, rather that interpreting them in light of our personal preferances.


:godisgood:

 

[Pastor Larry]

One of the most important principles in interpreting the scriptures, Larry, is letting the scriptures interpret themselves, rather that interpreting them in light of our personal preferances.

Yes, indeed. And this itself provides the most conclusive evidence against Hodges. Hodges let his personal preferences get in the way of the plain teaching of the Scriptures.

 

[Paul Kersey]

Zane Hodges / Wilkin / Charlie Bing comparison

I have observed this thread with a queasy feeling. I personally disagree with much of Zane Hodges' teaching. However, in view of the fact that the man just passed away, would it not be more noble and loving to avoid harsh attacks at this time? Again, I recognize many of you have legitimate disagreements with his teaching. Yet, many of these posts are venomous and seem to be painted with a very broad (and very judgmental) brush. I am not saying that there are not implications for what authors/theologians teach. Yet, is this really how you would like those who disagree with you to respond at the time of your passing?

Also, there is a clear distinction between Wilkin/Hodges and Dr. Bing. Wilkin/Hodges reject the notion that repentance is necessary for salvation. Charlie Bing has clearly stated, on many occasions, that repentance is a vitally important component of salvation. I am in strong agreement with him on the "change of heart" definition of metanoia/metanoeo, rejecting the "turn from sin" idea, in its soteriological context. Please don't start another extended thread on the idea of repentance. If you disagree, that's certainly your right. I am simply pointing out the differences between these three men. It has been my experience that though Dr. Charles Stanley is often lumped in with Zane Hodges, due to some similar ideas regarding the fate of those who walk away from the faith, Stanley is actually closer to Dr. Bing in his teaching. He clearly teaches repentance, in the change of mind context. I just received a mailout regarding this very idea.

Additionally, Dr. Bing, a man I hold in very high regard (as I do Dr. Stanley), spends much of his time overseas on the mission field, training pastors in very remote areas in evangelism. You may disagree with Dr. Bing, but he is actively seeking to make a difference for Christ. Dr. Bing is a moderate free-grace proponent, as are (in my opinion) Ron Rhodes, Stanley, Norman Geisler, and Chuck Swindoll. Wilkin/Hodges are on the extreme end of the free grace scale, and there are many other points of disagreement other than repentance. Most free grace proponents I know are not comfortable with the GES.

 

[Martin]

I have observed this thread with a queasy feeling. I personally disagree with much of Zane Hodges' teaching. However, in view of the fact that the man just passed away, would it not be more noble and loving to avoid harsh attacks at this time?

==As you know, the truth does not wait for anyone nor does it take a day off. The errors of Zane Hodges are still alive and well and will be for years to come. There is no telling the damage that man did to the church. So while I have sympathy for his family and friends, I must continue speaking out against the errors and confusion he left behind.

It has been my experience that though Dr. Charles Stanley is often lumped in with Zane Hodges, due to some similar ideas regarding the fate of those who walk away from the faith, Stanley is actually closer to Dr. Bing in his teaching. He clearly teaches repentance, in the change of mind context. I just received a mailout regarding this very idea.

==Dr. Stanley is "lumped" in with Hodges because his book "Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure" depends heavily upon the teachings of Hodges. It seems that some of the ideas Dr. Stanley wrote in his book no longer represent his positions.

You may disagree with Dr. Bing, but he is actively seeking to make a difference for Christ. Dr. Bing is a moderate free-grace proponent

==I don't consider the moderate free-grace position a major problem. Do I believe they are wrong on points? Yes. But nothing that will cause people to end up in hell. Men like Charles Stanley, Charles Ryrie, and Ron Rhodes (etc) are wonderful teachers whose work I generally admire. The heretics are in the extreme free-grace camp (not the moderate).

 

[Alive in Christ]

Martin,

"==I don't consider the moderate free-grace position a major problem. Do I believe they are wrong on points? Yes. But nothing that will cause people to end up in hell. Men like Charles Stanley, Charles Ryrie, and Ron Rhodes (etc) are wonderful teachers whose work I generally admire. The heretics are in the extreme free-grace camp (not the moderate)."

Well, why not let the "heretics" speak for themselves, regarding the "Lordship" of Christ issue.

An excerpt from their web-site, by Bob Wilken...

"Lordship Salvation is the view that in order to be born again one must do more than simply believe the facts of the gospel. John MacArthur writes, “The gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ’s authority. That, in a sentence, is what ‘lordship salvation’ teaches” (Faith Works, p. 23).

Lordship Salvation proponents do not believe that that the One who died on the cross for our sins and rose from the dead guarantees eternal life to all who simply believe in Him. They would say that believing that proposition is just believing facts. We must believe in a Person, and that entails His entire Person, including commitment to His Lordship.

MacArthur says this directly: “Those who want to eliminate Christ’s lordship from the gospel see faith as simple trust in a set of truths about Christ. Faith, as they describe it, is merely a personal appropriation of the promise of eternal life…[However], real faith, saving faith, is all of me (mind, emotions, and will) embracing all of Him (Savior, Advocate, Provider, Sustainer, Counselor, and Lord God)” (Faith Works, p. 30). Later he adds, “Saving faith, then, is the whole of my being embracing all of Christ. Faith cannot be divorced from commitment” (p. 45).


It has become common for Lordship Salvation proponents to describe the Free Grace position as “no-lordship.”

For example, in his book Faith Works MacArthur uses the term “no-lordship” hundreds of times, often three or more times on the same page. He speaks of “no-lordship theology” (pp. 50, 56, 61, 70, 91, 95, 96, 106, 107, 124, 173, 188, 200), “no-lordship teaching” (pp. 35, 37, 38, 39, 46, 56, 60, 106, 107, 108, 163, 191), “no-lordship doctrine” (pp. 28, 35, 38, 39, 50, 94, 97, 123, 173, 198, 202, 222, 232, 256), “no-lordship apologists” (pp. 46, 140), “no-lordship advocates” (pp. 32, 94, 96), “no-lordship proponents” (p. 97), “no-lordship teacher” (p. 124), “a no-lordship newsletter”—talking about Grace in Focus (p. 201), “No-lordship” (pp. 214-217, 233), “radical no-lordship” (pp. 45, 76, 91, 214-217), “the no-lordship gospel” (pp. 25, 222), “no-lordship salvation” (pp. 26, 39, 232), “the no-lordship view” (pp. 25, 34, 76, 96, 123, 124), “no-lordship terminology” (p. 26), “the no-lordship error” (p. 37), “the no-lordship definition of faith” (pp. 38, 76), “the no-lordship partisan” (p. 39), “no-lordship thought” (p. 50), “no-lordship appeals” (p. 50), “the no-lordship movement” (p. 56), “no-lordship grace” (p. 61), “no-lordship books” (pp. 70, 78), “no-lordship definition of repentance” (p. 77), “no-lordship theologians” (p. 81), “the no-lordship tendency” (p. 96), “the no-lordship approach” (p. 107), “no-lordship people” (pp. 140), and “the no-lordship position” (p. 155n).


It is unfair and misleading to call our position “no-lordship,” since we do believe in and preach the Lordship of Jesus.

We Believe and Teach That Jesus Is Lord

The issue is not whether Free Grace advocates believe and teach the Lordship of Christ. We do.

It is in all our books, articles, sermons, and messages.

I personally am prepared to die for the Lord Jesus and His gospel. I know many other Free Grace proponents who are as well. We are prepared to do so not because we must be committed to His Lordship to gain kingdom entrance or to prove we are truly born again. We are prepared to do so because we love Jesus and long to please Him (2 Cor 5:14; 1 John 4:19), because we believe He is indeed the One to whom we will one day give an account at the Bema, the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:9-11), because we long to rule with Him in the life to come (2 Tim 2:12), and because we are grateful for the everlasting life which we know is ours forever (2 Cor 5:14).


Because Jesus is sovereign, we evangelize the way He did. Lordship Salvation is a rejection of the evangelistic message that Jesus gave to Nicodemus in John 3:14-18, the woman at the well in John 4:10-14, Jewish audiences in John 5:24, 6:35, 47, and to Martha in John 11:20-27.


The funny thing is that if you wish to be popular today, hold to Lordship Salvation. That is attractive to 95% of the people in Christianity including Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, Church of Christ, Nazarenes, Reformed, Arminian, etc. The Free Grace position is an unpopular position. We hold this position because this is what Jesus taught, not because this is the message we would make up if we were in charge of creating the evangelistic message."

The thing is, I have no problem with you guys disagreeing with Hodges and the others. Nothing wrong with that at all. Completely normal and even profitable. Much good has come from healthy disagreement. God approves of it in Romans 14.

The thing that is so bewildering to me is this condemnation of them, and this silly buisiness of considering them to be these evil heretics.

When they are so clearly proclaiming the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I wonder if their might be wisdom to be found in certain passages of Galatians 4-21-31

" 1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Fears for the Church

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. 13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What[c] then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

17 They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them. 18 But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you. 19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you, 20 I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you.

Two Covenants

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:


“ Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”[e]

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”[f] 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Not a direct application concerning every "jot and tittle" of course, but maybe something to think about.


Link to the quoted material from GES...


http://www.faithalone.org/news/y2008/we%20believe%20Jesus%20is%20Lord.htm


:godisgood:

 

[drfuss]

Martin writes:
"==Dr. Stanley is "lumped" in with Hodges because his book "Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure" depends heavily upon the teachings of Hodges. It seems that some of the ideas Dr. Stanley wrote in his book no longer represent his positions."

drfuss: But it seems Dr. Stanley's basic ideas on the matter are still the same. I just copied the following from his Website under the section on those who stop believing:

"I imagine that a woman who has gone through an experience like the one described above would always have faith in firemen and their nets. But even if she did not, the fact remains that she was saved from the fire. In the same way, in all probability, a Christian who has expressed faith in Christ and experienced forgiveness of sin will always believe that forgiveness is found through Him. But even if the believer does not, the fact remains that he is forgiven."

 

[jonathan.borland]

Gentlemen and ladies: I hardly think that the announcement of the death of this long-time Bible teacher is the place to debate and disparage his views.