Zwingli was also a murderer

[Thinkingstuff]

Surprised you didnt add Glock---perhaps as an addendum. Im old school 1911. In the olden days all 1911s were pretty much limited to ball ammo. The new ones though are less problematic.... get out on the range & pop of at least a 100 rounds...that will break it in nicely

not to mention the sheer joy of shooting off 100 rounds.

 

[WestminsterMan]

You still haven't answered my question: will I forfeit my salvation depending on whether I die on one day or another?

If you die with unrepented sins on your soul, then you are very likely to forfeit your salvation. Clearly, only God knows for sure, but remember that no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God. Further, I believe that scripture provides a very complete list of sins that will keep you out of heaven. Not adulterers, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor murderers, etc.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Revelation 21;27

WM

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If you die with unrepented sins on your soul, then you are very likely to forfeit your salvation. Clearly, only God knows for sure, but remember that no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God. Further, I believe that scripture provides a very complete list of sins that will keep you out of heaven. Not adulterers, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor murderers, etc.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Revelation 21;27

WM

So, just a simple question from a simple mind. If you "get saved" or become a born again Christian. And then you "live the good life" for the most part repenting sin and turning from your old ways. Then lets say a tragedy happens or something not easily for seen. Then in your Anger or what ever you sin against God and arn't repented for it. The say death swiftly comes have you forfeited your salvation?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you die with unrepented sins on your soul, then you are very likely to forfeit your salvation. Clearly, only God knows for sure, but remember that no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God. Further, I believe that scripture provides a very complete list of sins that will keep you out of heaven. Not adulterers, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor murderers, etc.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Revelation 21;27

WM

Oh Oh..... Im hitting 3 outa 4. If Im not going to heaven I guess I should go back to my old ways & enjoy myself while I can.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So, just a simple question from a simple mind. If you "get saved" or become a born again Christian. And then you "live the good life" for the most part repenting sin and turning from your old ways. Then lets say a tragedy happens or something not easily for seen. Then in your Anger or what ever you sin against God and arn't repented for it. The say death swiftly comes have you forfeited your salvation?

Depends....are you an Arminian?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Depends....are you an Arminian?

Are you saying God saves us according to our theological stance?

BTW I'm neither Arminian nor Calvinist. A long time ago I would have said I was a Calminianist. But in reality that isn't accurate any more.

 

[WestminsterMan]

So, just a simple question from a simple mind. If you "get saved" or become a born again Christian. And then you "live the good life" for the most part repenting sin and turning from your old ways. Then lets say a tragedy happens or something not easily for seen. Then in your Anger or what ever you sin against God and arn't repented for it. The say death swiftly comes have you forfeited your salvation?

Ultimately, I would say that God will look at the circumstances for each individual. We all have differing levels of culpability. For example, the mentally ill, or those who have never heard the Gospel of Christ. But, if one knows the truth, and falls into your scenario above (assuming one takes scripture into account) then yes - it is my opinion that one could forfeit one's salvation. Let me reiterate that I don't know for sure as only God is the final arbiter. It takes all I can do to worry about my own salvation.

WM

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you saying God saves us according to our theological stance?

BTW I'm neither Arminian nor Calvinist. A long time ago I would have said I was a Calminianist. But in reality that isn't accurate any more.

OK my Christian belief system tells me that Christ Saves on the Cross & that certain selected people are provided with saving grace. Once you are elected, it becomes difficult to sin any longer & now try as I might to be a scoundrel, I'm having a hard time doing it......heck Im poorer but strangely happier because of this grace! Let the song Amazing Grace run through your mind for a moment....and if your going to argue that you were never dead.....well how about being blind....were you ever blind to doing the right thing, ever NOT have a conscience.

Now I think if I understand Westminster Man correct, he is saying you can still sin......well yes unintentionally. Intentionally & I gotta question if your truly a saved & elect person.

Here is my temptation of the week (personal): Im in the Walmart Supermarket on Tuesday & a really stunning woman is there also.....I mean really stunning. Everything in my nature is going YES YES YES (ohhhh YES)! Then this Grace thing says ....ahhh your wife, ahhh your married, ahhhh your a Christian, bought & paid for by the Blood of Christ. IE NO NO NO!!!

That same NO NO NO comes each & every time I want to sin. 16 months ago Yes Yes Yes would have been acted out! So you tell me....Im a living breathing man who now is in fact following Christ....and enjoying it. Soooo strange this transformation but soooo rewarding.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Ultimately, I would say that God will look at the circumstances for each individual. We all have differing levels of culpability. For example, the mentally ill, or those who have never heard the Gospel of Christ. But, if one knows the truth, and falls into your scenario above (assuming one takes scripture into account) then yes - it is my opinion that one could forfeit one's salvation. Let me reiterate that I don't know for sure as only God is the final arbiter. It takes all I can do to worry about my own salvation.

WM

I'm in agreement with WM though many would deny the possibility of such a senario. However, I've been around the block enough to know things like this actually happen.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Oh Oh..... Im hitting 3 outa 4. If Im not going to heaven I guess I should go back to my old ways & enjoy myself while I can.

Sarcasm duly noted. However, I like to follow St. Paul's advise:

Run the good race - fight the good fight and never give up!

Otherwise I could fall into the categories of:

"The washed pig returns to the mud" OR "A dog returns to it's vomit"

WM

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ultimately, I would say that God will look at the circumstances for each individual. We all have differing levels of culpability. For example, the mentally ill, or those who have never heard the Gospel of Christ. But, if one knows the truth, and falls into your scenario above (assuming one takes scripture into account) then yes - it is my opinion that one could forfeit one's salvation. Let me reiterate that I don't know for sure as only God is the final arbiter. It takes all I can do to worry about my own salvation.

WM

Ahhh haaa...if you were a presbyterian you would not say that....youd have certainty. Guess your a Baptist....then you have humility.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Sarcasm duly noted. However, I like to follow St. Paul's advise:

Run the good race - fight the good fight and never give up!

Otherwise I could fall into the categories of:

"The washed pig returns to the mud" OR "A dog returns to it's vomit"

WM

I'm jus messin wit ya!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You're my brother in Christ. And just wanted to put out there that even if we disagree on certain theological points and perspectives in my mind that doesn't change that fact. So I have nothing against you in any way. That being said here are some differences we have.

OK my Christian belief system tells me that Christ Saves on the Cross & that certain selected people are provided with saving grace. Once you are elected, it becomes difficult to sin any longer & now try as I might to be a scoundrel, I'm having a hard time doing it......heck Im poorer but strangely happier because of this grace! Let the song Amazing Grace run through your mind for a moment....and if your going to argue that you were never dead.....well how about being blind....were you ever blind to doing the right thing, ever NOT have a conscience.

I don't believe it becomes any more difficult to sin. But certainly were sin is involved your new nature certainly lets you know about it in your conscience. Sin may not be as appitizing as it once was. However, I know from experience before I converted I had a conscience about certain things and avoided them like drugs for instance.

Now I think if I understand Westminster Man correct, he is saying you can still sin......well yes unintentionally. Intentionally & I gotta question if your truly a saved & elect person.

That is often the fall back but life experience has taught me different and ultimately God decides. However, since my conversion at 15, I've sinned intentionally many times and repented many times. That's not to say that there wasn't a marked improvement from before. There was and I was less willful towards God than I once was. However, I never lost assurance that Jesus was leading me towards Glory even in my errors. Not that its right to sin but there is also forgiveness. What is your experience and how does it match up to what you are saying?

Here is my temptation of the week (personal): Im in the Walmart Supermarket on Tuesday & a really stunning woman is there also

Sweet!!!!

.....I mean really stunning

Woah Sweet dude!

Everything in my nature is going YES YES YES (ohhhh YES)!

Natural response. You fleshy man! :smilewinkgrin:

Then this Grace thing says ....ahhh your wife, ahhh your married, ahhhh your a Christian, bought & paid for by the Blood of Christ. IE NO NO NO!!!

Yes the new nature kicks in and your conscience tells you and the Holy Spirit leads you against further thoughts of the flesh.

That same NO NO NO comes each & every time I want to sin. 16 months ago Yes Yes Yes would have been acted out!

The New Nature Jesus Gives you definately fights against our flesh and like I've said Sin is not as alluring as it once was. But the question is you have victory in this thing but how about other areas in your life. Have you chosen to sin? Ie let your anger have its way, told a white lie, ect? Not all sin are in the "big" Catagory. However, smaller sins can be just as damning. Have you purposely ignored what God asked of you like Jonah? These things are more insiduous. But even if you do them have you lost your election ? or would you say you were never elect to begin with?

So you tell me....Im a living breathing man who now is in fact following Christ....and enjoying it. Soooo strange this transformation but soooo rewarding.

That is the evidence of the New Nature which comes from above and is from the Holy Spirit. Its evidence. If this never occured then your initial question would be right were you ever elected in the first place. However, I've seen from my experience people change their lives for Christ and have a similar testimony to yours. But then their spouces leave them. They come into hard times. They find that they're judged by other Church members. They become disillusioned and seperate themselves from their Church and begin to live secularily. Some would say they were never elect yet there is the evidence of a life change to which you 've spoken to. It that really an accurate thing to judge? With your perspective can the person be forgiven and still be elect? Or do they blow it all on their first willful sin never again to return to the faith?

 

[WestminsterMan]

not to mention the sheer joy of shooting off 100 rounds.

Here's a church in my home town that takes this gun stuff seriously. Yes... This is real.

http://libcfl.com/images/IMG_1193.jpg

WM

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here's a church in my home town that takes this gun stuff seriously. Yes... This is real.

http://libcfl.com/images/IMG_1193.jpg

WM

Bless their hearts! :thumbs:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Here's a church in my home town that takes this gun stuff seriously. Yes... This is real.

http://libcfl.com/images/IMG_1193.jpg

WM

Note they are Landmarkist which means we now have evidence Jesus and the disciples were packing.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

blow it.....LOL...... no God no.....quite the contrary the business is failing, my church wont church plant up here, Im scraping by & Im strangely content. God is molding me every day like a potter to pottery in his direction. At 54 I should be cursing God for not keeping me in the career game, accumulating wealth & believe me Ive got ways & means to capitalize on the economy & on peoples losses....... only I dont & thats just probably nuts from a worldly position. God help me but I cant really put my finger on it, but He just provides for me. Not only that brother, but He grows you....Im no longer fearful & Im no longer in a panic to perform & get ahead. Some how, I feel I like I am ahead of the game. Your perception changes ..... and Im content with the day to day rather than projecting for the quarter, for the end of year. I now know I can live with less, my relationship with my wife is much better, my health has improved ...... all I can say is that these are gifts.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Note they are Landmarkist which means we now have evidence Jesus and the disciples were packing.

old Marty Feldman (Young Frankenstein Movie) Line .... Which should make them very popular!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

blow it.....LOL...... no God no.....quite the contrary the business is failing, my church wont church plant up here, Im scraping by & Im strangely content. God is molding me every day like a potter to pottery in his direction. At 54 I should be cursing God for not keeping me in the career game, accumulating wealth & believe me Ive got ways & means to capitalize on the economy & on peoples losses....... only I dont & thats just probably nuts from a worldly position. God help me but I cant really put my finger on it, but He just provides for me. Not only that brother, but He grows you....Im no longer fearful & Im no longer in a panic to perform & get ahead. Some how, I feel I like I am ahead of the game. Your perception changes ..... and Im content with the day to day rather than projecting for the quarter, for the end of year. I now know I can live with less, my relationship with my wife is much better, my health has improved ...... all I can say is that these are gifts.

Amen to that!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Nazaroo,

I would like to agree with the concept of believers’ baptism, thus endorsing the stand of Felix Manz and the Swiss Brethren or Brethren in Christ.

Zwingli was not in the Spirit of Christ when he hounded and persecuted his theological opponents, right or wrong, and ended up murdering them. Nor was he right in the idea that a council could dictate the meaning of Holy Scripture for men. Nor was it right that a city council should impose death and torture on opponents and conscientious dissenters. Nor was Zwingli right in opposing the simple Baptist Felix Manz, and having him murdered.

Felix Manz and others suffered for their acceptance from the Scriptures and practice of believers’ baptism. This is clearly taught in the Scriptures as evidenced from the following:
Matthew 3:5-6,13-15 (KJV): 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Acts 8:35-38 (KJV): 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Ephesians 4:4-6 (KJV): 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
From the above the one baptism consists of an affectionate belief of the true gospel consisting of the things concerning the Name of Jesus and the things concerning the Kingdom of God and this belief will motivate the individual to become united in the death and resurrection of Christ through baptism:
Romans 6:1-12 (KJV): 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Thus Bible baptism is the response of true faith, and it is not “works”. It cannot be imposed on others as is done with infant sprinkling and some immersions. Romans 6 and Galatians 2:20 show that the sacrifice of Christ was representative, not substitutionary and baptism is the means of identification and thereafter living the crucified and motivated life through faith. Acts 8:5,12 show also that a correct understanding and belief in the things concerning the Name of Jesus and the Kingdom of God is part of the one faith.

Kind regards
Trevor