Vote to bar churches with women pastors fails again at SBC Annual Meeting

[Silverhair]

I think I understand your reasoning, but really it doesn't work like that. It's not only the issue of women pastors; there are several matters on which genuine, born again Christians differ. They hold the beliefs they do because that is what the believe God teaches in His word. Take the issue of baptism. Baptists believe that baptism is for Christian believers, yet Presbyterians think they should baptise babies. As a Baptist, I am not going to say, "Well, if Presbyterians believe that babies should be baptised, that must be because God has determined that they should believe that." Think of what the bible says about Pharaoh. The Lord hardened his heart, so that he did not let the Children of Israel go. Does that mean that we say he was performing a righteous act in not letting them go? Of course not! (And to avoid misunderstanding, I am certainly not comparing the issue of women pastors with Pharaoh.)

David as I said in my post I am curious why those that hold to the view that God determines all things have such a problem with God, possibly, determining that women be pastor/teachers.

If God has called a women to that position who are we to question His doing so?

From my reading of the text it was Paul's personal view and fit with the culture of the time.

 

[Salty]

I have my comfort zone and I have my biblically-based opinion, but I wouldn't force another church body to agree with me.
It's a grey area for me. I can understand those churches that support the option of women as ministers of the faith.

I'm fairly well read in the topic; In fact, I've got 7 books specifically on the topic of 'Women and Ministry'. [I received a newer one just last week sitting on my bed stand waiting for me to crack open and read (Gender as Love by Fellipe do Vale).]

My opinion: Unless you can provide a good argument against what you believe, you have not studied the subject enough to force others to agree with you.

Rob

So what you are saying - People know what they believe - they just don't know WHY they believe it?!

 

[justapewfiller]

If I may, I'm going to flip the question a bit.

I was recently reading this article in the Baptist Press --> Amendment on role of women in pastoral ministry fails to achieve 2/3 vote | Baptist Press

That ended with this quote...

“The aim of complementarianism is not to limit what women can do in the church,” he said, “but to actually free them to minister in the church in appropriate roles alongside men.”

In the Baptist churches I've been a part of, the role of women has largely been limited to the following:
Cooking
Cleaning
Decorating
"Hospitality / event committee"
Secretary / book-keeping
Children's Sunday School or Children's Church (but not leading the overall Sunday school program)
Women's Sunday School and / or Women's ministry.
Choir (playing an instrument or singing - but not leading)

Most men seem not to have an issue with women in these roles. However, some women do have gifting for roles outside of these and want to do them.

Other than the list I have above. Are there other roles / functions within the Baptist church you feel that a woman can fill and still be aligned with Scripture? If so, what are they?

The reason I ask, is that it dawned on me that in this debate much of the talk has been on what women cannot do, with little talk of what they can do. Yes, I'm looking for some specifics other than my list above. It is turns out to be limited to my list, then so be it.

The driver for my question is a exasperated Christian female friend recently asked me, "What exactly do Baptist men think women can do in church besides cook, clean, decorate, take care of the kids and be ya'll's secretary?! You tell us there are all these equally important things we can do, what are they?!"

 

[Jerome]

The Southern Baptist pastor you quoted, who sponsored the 'Law Amendment' at this year's annual meeting, freely admitted that he has women deacons at his church!

That's the context of your quote of him emphasizing 'what women can do in the church', so deacon must be added to the list.

You're welcome.

 

[justapewfiller]

The Southern Baptist pastor you quoted, who sponsored the 'Law Amendment' at this year's annual meeting, freely admitted that he has women deacons at his church!

That's the context of your quote of him emphasizing 'what women can do in the church', so deacon must be added to the list.

You're welcome.

Thank you - I did not know that.

I admit, I do find it interesting as the Baptist churches I've attended and the local associations have interacted with held a firm "No" on women as deacons due to 1 Timothy 3:11-12 and often 1 Timothy 2:12 despite Romans 16:1

Is this simply a case where I need to get out more, or does the SBC generally hold that women as deacons not ok and they are a bit of an anomaly depending the views of each local church?

I will also admit I was frankly surprised to see a female appointed as head of the IMB trustees due to how I've seen 1 Timothy 2:12 interpreted in the local Baptist churches and associations.

As stated, I will be happy to be to told, "Filler - you need to get out more".

 

[Mikey]

How foolish of me to actually think that we are all equal in Christ.

I actually believe that God is sovereign and that He can choose whom He wants to preach His gospel message.

But then again I believe a number of things the bible says that you do not, but we can leave that to another time.

Though we are equal in some respect, we are not equal in others. this is clearly true otherwise you are saying the at men and women are the same (equal in every way).

God is Sovereign and He chooses who pastors and preaches. God's choice is told in Scripture, which makes it clear it is to be Men and Men only.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Each local church can operate the way they see its obedience to God's Word. If I don't agree with them, I won't be part of that church . Simple.

BUT when churches unite in association/convention of churches, there MUST be agreement on orthodoxy and orthopraxy (doctrine and practice). The SBC has fought battles over this concept since 1845. In 1925 they rejected what the Northern Baptist Convention adopted - that "the Word of God is our authority for faith and practice" - since that was used be liberals and modernists to basically say you can interpret the Bible any way you want and still be part of our group. Destroyed the Convention and today it is a sham.

SBC listed detailed things you MUST agree to if you want to be part of their organization. Almost 2/3 of messengers from thousands of congregations agreed that elders serving as "pastor" (one of the gifts/duties of some elders) must be males. For the minority to rule and allow women pastors would make me question continuing in such a group, since the Bible is crystal clear about the matter.

Back 50 years ago the SBC fought this battle over inspiration and for a long time could not seem to win. Thankfully, they stuck it out and today if you don't agree to the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God, you can run off to a different fellowship. God bless those fighting for the right.

 

[Jerome]

You need to get out more, it's way beyond deacons in the SBC. According to the 'Called to Ministry' website sponsored by Albert Mohler's Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, pastoral ministries considered open to women include:

DISCIPLESHIP PASTOR

“The work of a Discipleship Pastor is significant to the development of and ministry in any New Testament Church…to guide the church in developing and maintaining a comprehensive strategy as well as enlist and equip disciple making leaders.”

“…HE OR SHE accomplishes this task by being knowledgeable, supportive…”

CHAPLAIN

“Chaplains are trained to provide …pastoral services”

“Chaplaincy affords MEN AND WOMEN unique opportunities for ministry. Chaplains are in the people-care business. When people provide care to others, they provide it unto God”

MINISTER OF YOUTH/STUDENTS

“A minister of students (Youth Pastor) has the responsibility to plan and coordinate everything a local church does to minister to students and their parents”

“HE OR SHE works directly with students…this work includes…time spent one-on-one”

COLLEGIATE MINISTER

“…sponsoring of a weekly worship services, evangelism, missions, and discipleship. The campus based Collegiate Minister has various groups that HE OR SHE relates to…”

 

[Dr. Bob]

Yes you are being foolish. Though we are equal in some respect, we are not equal in others. this is clearly true otherwise you are saying the at men and women are the same (equal in every way).

God is Sovereign and He chooses who pastors and preaches. God's choice is told in Scripture, which makes it clear it is to be Men and Men only.

Glad you didn't have to use the obvious "foolish" word for this brother as he admitted it in his posts.

 

[Jerome]

I will also admit I was frankly surprised to see a female appointed as head of the IMB trustees due to how I've seen 1 Timothy 2:12 interpreted in the local Baptist churches and associations.

Fundamentalist Baptist mission ABWE was headed by Lucy Peabody a century ago, in the 1920s! She founded it as the "Association of Baptists for Evangelism in the Orient" after separating from the Northern Baptist Convention.

 

[Silverhair]

Glad you didn't have to use the obvious "foolish" word for this brother as he admitted it in his posts.

That is the difference between you and me Bob because I actually do believe that God is sovereign and trust Him to put the right people in the right place at the right time to move His plan along.

Actually since you are a calvinist I am surprised that you disagree with women pastors. Those women pastors are just doing what God determined for them to do. But then He has also determined that you would disagree with those women pastors.

That calvnist philosophy is really confusing.

So ya I guess I am foolish to actually believe we are all equal in Christ. But that is a foolish I can live with.

 

[justapewfiller]

Each local church can operate the way they see its obedience to God's Word. If I don't agree with them, I won't be part of that church . Simple.

BUT when churches unite in association/convention of churches, there MUST be agreement on orthodoxy and orthopraxy (doctrine and practice). The SBC has fought battles over this concept since 1845. In 1925 they rejected what the Northern Baptist Convention adopted - that "the Word of God is our authority for faith and practice" - since that was used be liberals and modernists to basically say you can interpret the Bible any way you want and still be part of our group. Destroyed the Convention and today it is a sham.

SBC listed detailed things you MUST agree to if you want to be part of their organization. Almost 2/3 of messengers from thousands of congregations agreed that elders serving as "pastor" (one of the gifts/duties of some elders) must be males. For the minority to rule and allow women pastors would make me question continuing in such a group, since the Bible is crystal clear about the matter.

Back 50 years ago the SBC fought this battle over inspiration and for a long time could not seem to win. Thankfully, they stuck it out and today if you don't agree to the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God, you can run off to a different fellowship. God bless those fighting for the right.

I am fine with women not being the lead pastor.

However, I'm also fine with a lady being the head of the IMB trustees, or leading the choir, or running a community outreach (which may or may not have males what work or volunteer there) or well - many other things.

 

[justapewfiller]

You need to get out more, it's way beyond deacons in the SBC. According to the 'Called to Ministry' website sponsored by Albert Mohler's Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, pastoral ministries considered open to women include:

DISCIPLESHIP PASTOR

“The work of a Discipleship Pastor is significant to the development of and ministry in any New Testament Church…to guide the church in developing and maintaining a comprehensive strategy as well as enlist and equip disciple making leaders.”

“…HE OR SHE accomplishes this task by being knowledgeable, supportive…”

CHAPLAIN

“Chaplains are trained to provide …pastoral services”

“Chaplaincy affords MEN AND WOMEN unique opportunities for ministry. Chaplains are in the people-care business. When people provide care to others, they provide it unto God”

MINISTER OF YOUTH/STUDENTS

“A minister of students (Youth Pastor) has the responsibility to plan and coordinate everything a local church does to minister to students and their parents”

“HE OR SHE works directly with students…this work includes…time spent one-on-one”

COLLEGIATE MINISTER

“…sponsoring of a weekly worship services, evangelism, missions, and discipleship. The campus based Collegiate Minister has various groups that HE OR SHE relates to…”

Jerome - Thank You.

This is the type of thing I was looking for.

I suppose it is human nature. It certainly was with my kids, and with people in the business world and admittedly myself at times.
People that are trying to get a message across as well those hearing the message tend to focus on what we can't do rather than what we can do.

That is one reason I asked my question the way I did. Much of the debate around this has become focused on two words, "Women can't". Ok - women cannot be pastors and be in friendly cooperation with the SBC. That's fine. But, it it leaves out all the things women can do. I freely admit I had no idea the SBC would embrace women in the roles you listed, but I am glad it does.

 

[Reynolds]

You need to get out more, it's way beyond deacons in the SBC. According to the 'Called to Ministry' website sponsored by Albert Mohler's Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, pastoral ministries considered open to women include:

DISCIPLESHIP PASTOR

“The work of a Discipleship Pastor is significant to the development of and ministry in any New Testament Church…to guide the church in developing and maintaining a comprehensive strategy as well as enlist and equip disciple making leaders.”

“…HE OR SHE accomplishes this task by being knowledgeable, supportive…”

CHAPLAIN

“Chaplains are trained to provide …pastoral services”

“Chaplaincy affords MEN AND WOMEN unique opportunities for ministry. Chaplains are in the people-care business. When people provide care to others, they provide it unto God”

MINISTER OF YOUTH/STUDENTS

“A minister of students (Youth Pastor) has the responsibility to plan and coordinate everything a local church does to minister to students and their parents”

“HE OR SHE works directly with students…this work includes…time spent one-on-one”

COLLEGIATE MINISTER

“…sponsoring of a weekly worship services, evangelism, missions, and discipleship. The campus based Collegiate Minister has various groups that HE OR SHE relates to…”

Mohler talks out of both sides of his mouth.A woman is not permitted to have authority over. Man. Discipleship and collegiate pastor has authority over a man.