Are you reading the posts? You have not seen them say, that man comes to God first, then they ...become elect? Man comes to Jesus first...then they get the Spirit! You can see it everyday if you look
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Predestination Is God's Identification As The true and Living God
- Thread starter Zaatar71
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Can I request that the BB technical people add a "bury your face in your hands" emoji? It is the only thing I can do to express myself at this point.
POST 55
Yes. POST 37
Webster's 1828 Dictionary
ordained
ORDA'INED, pp. Appointed; instituted; established; invested with ministerial or pastoral functions; settled.
That would make God the author according to your post.
What dictionary are you using??
Election is about adoption. See Romans 8.
Ro 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Ro 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Ro 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Ro 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Ro 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Ro 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Ro 8:26 ¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Ro 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
God came to man first, many times.
God came to Adam first.
Ge 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Ge 3:9 ¶ And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
God started the conversation with Cain first.
Ge 4:6 ¶ And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Cain also resisted God after God offered Him the better way.
Ge 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
God offered a full-faith opportunity and was not lying to Cain. Cain refused with his free will.
Ro 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
If that isn't God taking the initiative, I don't know what is.
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No Ben, wrong again! It does not say God caused it. It does not say God made them sin! this is why you miss it by a mile, another swing and a miss, my friend. From vines nt dictionary;
Ordain
[ 1,,G5087, tithemi ]
to put: See APPOINT, No. 3.
[ 2,,G2525, kathistemi ]
from kata, down," or "over against," and histemi, "to cause to stand, to set," is translated "to ordain" in the AV of Titus 1:5; Hebrews 5:1; Hebrews 8:3. See APPOINT, No. 2.
[ 3,,G5021, tasso ]
is translated "to ordain," in Acts 13:48; Romans 13:1. See APPOINT. NO. 5
[ 4,,G1299, diatasso ]
is translated "to ordain" in 1 Corinthians 7:17; 1 Corinthians 9:14; Galatians 3:19, the last in the sense of "administered." Cp. diatage, under DISPOSITION. See APPOINT. No. 6.
[ 5,,G3724, horizo ]
is twice used of Christ as Divinely "ordained" to be the Judge of men, Acts 10:42; Acts 17:31. See DETERMINE, No. 2.
[ 6,,G2919, krino ]
"to divide, separate, decide, judge," is translated "ordained" in Acts 16:4, of the decrees by the Apostles and elders in Jerusalem. See JUDGE.
Notes:
(1) In 1 Corinthians 2:7, AV, proorizo, "to foreordain" (See RV) is translated "ordained." See DETERMINE, No. 3.
(2) In Mark 3:14, AV, poieo, "to make," is translated "ordained" (RV, "appointed").
(3) In Hebrews 9:6, AV, kataskeuazo, "to prepare" (so RV), is translated "were ... ordained. See PREPARE.
(4) In Acts 14:23, AV, cheirotoneo, "to appoint" (RV), is translated "they had ordained." See APPOINT, No. 11.
(5) In Ephesians 2:10, AV, proetoimazo, "to prepare before," is translated "hath before ordained" (RV, "afore prepared"); See PREPARE.
(6) In Jude 1:4, AV, prographo, lit., "to write before," is translated "were before ... ordained" (RV, "were ... set forth"). See SET (forth).
(7) In Acts 1:22, AV, ginomai, "to become," is translated "be ordained" (RV, "become").
The things that come to pass , are ordained to come to pass. That does not mean that God causes the sinful Acts. Acts 2:23!Do you see it yet?
God coming to man, does not free man to come on His own! The gospel of the kingdom cannot be welcomed until and unless The Spirit of God draws the man savingly, giving the new heart Ezk.36:25 speaks of! Let me know if you see the difference yet.
Jesus spoke to multitudes, he came to them externally, why did they not come? I will tell you why! Only the elect are effectually called, that's why!
John 15:16
NT rendering. If any man be in Christ He is a new creature.
Nowhere in Ezekiel does it say any of those things happen over a period of time or in different steps. There is no gestational period for being born again. Life begins at conception. Born again is regeneration.
I'll tell you why. They made the wrong choice.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Only the elect effectually believed.
Just like when Stephen witnessed. They could not resist what he said. But, they still resisted the Holy Spirit.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
ORDAINED TO DO WHAT??
Not be saved.
Bear fruit.
Once again, "Election" refers to people who are saved, not who will be.
Fruit as evidence of them having already been now saved
Yes, that is part of the GOOD WORKS that God has ordained that we walk in them Eph2;10
You seem to read it wrong each time. God elects a multitude of lost sinners and transforms them into saints who bear the fruit thereof.
Sorry, you left out the definitions. I don't have my Vine's with me so I will have to use the Strong's. I hope you will not object.
B. to appoint, ordain, order
1. to appoint one's own responsibility or authority
2. to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon
Acts 13:48
they saw their own responsibility, they agreed with the speaker
Romans 13:1
God places authority. this has nothing to do with salvation and does not mean that everything has been ordained.
But it is clear that God places authorities. Dan. 4
Paul ordains in 1 cor. 7:17 what he ordains is not an example for salvation, rather, Christian behavior.
the others also are not salvation related. they are specific to the support of the minister and the giving of the law.
these do not support determinism or have to do with salvation.
this, as you say, is descriptive of Christ. That understood, it applies there and is not an argument for determinism or election for salvation.
Agreed.
and so it has nothing to do with God ordaining everything or anything to do with election for salvation.
This is talking about wisdom not salvation.
He chose 12 disciples to be close to Him and to send out. This is not salvation. He ordained Judas also.
This is talking about physical objects being prepared and set apart for the use in the tabernacle. None of the tabernacle furniture made with hands is born again and I don't expect to see any of the man made object in heaven.
This is appointing or choosing Leaders in the church. They had better be born again before this. Since they are probably "laying hands on no man suddenly," I suspect that they had been saved well in advance to this ordination.
God has told us what we are to be doing as believers. This, once again refering to what we are to do after salvation.
You left out "of old." This means "Back in the day." "in the History books."
the reference is to say that there are Written about before
prographo, lit., "to write before," pro=before grapho=written
so this is reffering to history, not salvation
They are choosing someone to fill the spot of Judas who was also ordained. If the person is qualifying at this point he should be a believer. I assume they took that into account before hand. This is filling a position of title, "his bishoprick let another take." This has nothing to do with salvation.
Acts 2:23 specifically stated that Jesus was delivered to the ungodly. It does not say that God ordained for them to do any of the things they did. These things are prophesied, but God knowing and telling, is different than God causing.
Do you see it yet?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
To quote your LBCF/WCF "freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass"
Then we see that the framers of this say just how bad it made God look decided to the contradict themselves. Typical calvinism. Try to walk both sides of the street at the same time.
I have condsidered my ways Za and that is wy i reject the false rligion of calvinism.
My theology is based on the word of God not on some pagan philosophy.
Man is sinful just as the bible shows us but we also have the free will to make responsible choices just as the bible shows.
We are born with a sin nature but we are not born condemned for the sin of Adam. That is just one more of the errors of calvinism.
No man seeks God continuously which is what Rom 3:11 is telling us. Calvinism has once again abused the word of God so that it fits their false religion.
Seeks After G1567 V-PAP-NSM
Tense-Present
The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. The action is Progressive (Continuous) Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes
Bob & BF say they preached so they should know this
Odd that calvinists focus on that verse but ignore
Rom 3:13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips";
Rom 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Context really does not do calvinism any favors it just keeps pointing out their errors.
God is sovereign but He does not have to pull the strings as if we were all puppets. God is in control but He is not controlling as your divine detreminism requires as that would then make Him responsible for all the sin and evil in the world. Is the the position that you are now taking?
We have a fallen nature but we are not fallen in Adam as in guilty of his sin. That is just one of the calvinist errors. You continue to see the bible through your calvinist lens which causes you to distort the truths of the bible.
God has provide the various means by which all men can know God. If what you say about God making man willing to believe then we have to wonder way He did not make all people willing since His desire is for all to come to repentance.
So either God is not powerful enough to make them willing, He lied as He really does not want all to come to repentance or the real reason is that your theory is false.
Those that hear and respond to the gospel message in faith will be saved.
The positive interaction is a nice change ZA but no my view has not changed. Calvinism is still, shall we say, a less than honest view of God's word.
Well since by your LBCF/WCF God has determined all things then even the second causes have been determined so all thoughts and actions fall back to God.
Where the problem comes in for the calvinist is that we do understand the language of the calvinist confessions. We see the obvious contradictions.
I do understand the position of calvinism, you have drifted from biblical theology into pagan philosophy. Can you not see that?
If they understood what the scriptures said then they would not make the errors that they have done and continue to do.
but not ordained to be saved.
Jesus said we should bear fruit because we abide in Him. It did not say that He chose them to be in Him.
37818
Well-Known Member
Not everyone. And I need not to have read any of them.
I see you are yet without spiritual eyesight on these matters. You are consistent indeed! Wrong, but consistent
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That comment sounds a lot like Gnosticism. You need special enlightenment to be able to understand the word of God.
So what makes you think you have this special eyesight ZA?
I mean it could just be the you have evanescent faith and at any moment it will be snatched away from you as it was not your faith to start with, it had to be given to you.
Even the fact that you say you believe is only because you think God determined that you would.
So in reality your whole religion is just a house of cards.
But as a calvinist you are consistent. Wrong, but consistent.
But really how consistent are you?
If Calvinism is true I can't think of a better excuse for an atheist than the one that Calvinism ultimately gives him.
They can honestly say, if Calvinism is true I was born a God hater without the ability to believe in my own God unless He unilaterally picked me before I was even born for reasons that He never reveals and gives me this miracle of faith causing me to believe.
I can't think of a better excuse in the world than I was born unable to believe without a miracle and God withheld that miracle from me.
Silverhair said;
I mean it could just be the you have evanescent faith and at any moment it will be snatched away from you as it was not your faith to start with, it had to be given to you.
Even the fact that you say you believe is only because you think God determined that you would.
So in reality your whole religion is just a house of cards.
But as a calvinist you are consistent. Wrong, but consistent.
But really how consistent are you?
If Calvinism is true I can't think of a better excuse for an atheist than the one that Calvinism ultimately gives him.
They can honestly say, if Calvinism is true I was born a God hater without the ability to believe in my own God unless He unilaterally picked me before I was even born for reasons that He never reveals and gives me this miracle of faith causing me to believe.
I can't think of a better excuse in the world than I was born unable to believe without a miracle and God withheld that miracle from me.
I mean it could just be the you have evanescent faith and at any moment it will be snatched away from you as it was not your faith to start with, it had to be given to you.
Even the fact that you say you believe is only because you think God determined that you would.
So in reality your whole religion is just a house of cards.
But as a calvinist you are consistent. Wrong, but consistent.
But really how consistent are you?
If Calvinism is true I can't think of a better excuse for an atheist than the one that Calvinism ultimately gives him.
They can honestly say, if Calvinism is true I was born a God hater without the ability to believe in my own God unless He unilaterally picked me before I was even born for reasons that He never reveals and gives me this miracle of faith causing me to believe.
I can't think of a better excuse in the world than I was born unable to believe without a miracle and God withheld that miracle from me.