10 Reasons Why Calvinites Are Calvinites

[Ray Berrian]

ILUVLIGHT,

That passage in Romans 4:5, frankly, I had forgot about its perfect answer to those floundering souls who still think faith is a human work and thus a contribution to their salvation. God through Paul is telling them and us that to believe in Jesus, to trust Him as your only hope of salvation is not a work 'on our side of the fence, if you will. You would think this would end all of the mantra coming from the contrived notions of the deceived ones.

Let us see if their 'wills' will override their alleged bowing to and then standing on His promises.

What do you think will be their response? My guess is these kind of persons will use their volition and still say that believing in Jesus is a work and then imply that God predestined them to think in this unlawful way in the eyes of the Lord God.

 

[Frogman]

Good Morning Brother Mike,
Isn't it a wonderful thing that God prepares the heart and the mouth (Proverbs 16:1; Romans 10:9 & 10).

It is a very significant point to note the true commission of the Church is to preach the gospel (Matt. 28) and to note this gospel includes preaching repentance and remission of sins in Jesus' name (Luke 24:47) and that Romans 10:14 tells us that they (the lost) cannot call on Him in whom they have not believed. Note here the Bible does not tell us they do not already believe, but that they cannot call on him in whom they have not believed and also they cannot believe except they hear, and they cannot hear except there is a preacher and that they cannot preach except they be sent.

The preaching of the Gospel brings to light life and immortality, it does not bring life and immortality, only light, or knowledge of existing life and immortality, the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (1 Tim. 1:10; 1 Cor. 1:9 and 2 Cor. 4:6).

Then, as long as we are making reference to the commission, let's not forget the commission to the ministry (via Peter) in John 21 to feed the sheep.

The sheep are already there, it is the task of the ministry of reconciliation to gather them together into the flock and to feed them. We use the Gospel to feed them and not the rudimentary things of the world.

May God Bless,
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Frogman]

Dear Brethren,
The work is not in the believing. The work is in the hoping by your belief, by your intellectual understanding, by your flesh, wish is in control of the sinful will, that you possess the eternal hope.

Again, the Bible never tells us the lost sheep do not already believe, it tells us they do not believe in Jesus, the kinsman redeemer, because they have not heard of him. What is it they are in need of hearing? That they by their sinful volition are able to deliver themselves over into His righteousness? To cloak themselves in His Garments of Righteousness?

No, what they are in need of Hearing by the Faithful Gospel messenger is Christ has come, they no longer must look to the promised coming, but the promised fulfilled and simply rest in His faithful work to accomplish their righteousness.

This is the forward looking faith of Abraham in as much as the Scripture affirms to us that the OT saints saw the promises afar off, were persuaded of them, and embraced them.

Now, your daysman has come and has stood between your sinful self will and that perfect Holy Will of God and has delivered you, yet you still insist upon walking by the flesh and not by faith resting wholly in Him and His accomplished work.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Brother Dallas;

It is a very significant point to note the true commission of the Church is to preach the gospel (Matt. 28) and to note this gospel includes preaching repentance and remission of sins in Jesus' name (Luke 24:47) and that Romans 10:14 tells us that they (the lost) cannot call on Him in whom they have not believed. Note here the Bible does not tell us they do not already believe, but that they cannot call on him in whom they have not believed and also they cannot believe except they hear, and they cannot hear except there is a preacher and that they cannot preach except they be sent.

Well you see most think it would be insanity to talk to someone who you don't believe exist. However they can come to believe by simply hearing about Christ through a preacher. We can all hear just fine and understand.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Not only this but man knows that there is a God a creator and yet they do rebel with out the conviction of the Spirit. The conviction brings belief not regeneration.

Then, as long as we are making reference to the commission, let's not forget the commission to the ministry (via Peter) in John 21 to feed the sheep.

No one is a sheep of His without belief.

The sheep are already there, it is the task of the ministry of reconciliation to gather them together into the flock and to feed them. We use the Gospel to feed them and not the rudimentary things of the world.

If the sheep are already there then they believe with out hearing the gospel first and that is impossible.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Bro Dallas;

The work is not in the believing. The work is in the hoping by your belief, by your intellectual understanding, by your flesh, wish is in control of the sinful will, that you possess the eternal hope.

Once we believe we are already saved and once saved we have hope of everlasting life with Christ.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[Frogman]

Hello Dear Brother Mike,

You say this is impossible:

If the sheep are already there then they believe with out hearing the gospel first and that is impossible.


Where in Scripture do you support this? If this is true, there is not one of the OT saints who are quickened at the present time and not one possessed the hope of awakening in His likeness.

The statement above that ends my paragraph is from the mouth of the prophet and king David. How did he know and come to be assured of his awakening in the Likeness of the messiah? The same can be asked of Abraham when he stated to Isaac that God would provide Himself and Lamb for the offering, the same may be said of Job when he said he knew his Redeemer lived and that he would see him in the last day and not by the eyes of another. How did these men receive such gospel reassurance apart from a gospel preacher?

They did have a gospel preacher, the Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God, the Spirit itself preached and does preach the gospel to all the elect according to the purpose of God. So, you are correct, there is no need of a gospel preacher in order that any for whom Christ has died will come to Him. Instead, the purpose of preaching the gospel is simply to bring to light life and immortality that is already existing in the regenerated elect.

The problem with a man centered theology is that it begins, remains and perseveres in its focus upon the outward work of man, whehter it be belief as an intellectual capability or whether it be a gospel obedience to baptism, or faithful attendance upon the church, etc.

Because of this there can be no real assurance of having believed to the saving of the soul. Instead there is a continual fear of falling away or not being obedient to the end such that the sheep might enter into the same fear and unrest.

I am thankful that God brought me by way of the experiences I have. Because of this I have been able (not capable for they are different concepts), but rather I have been able to see the purpose of His full reconciliation of man with God. I pray that many shall be brought to the same rest, if only they would leave off their continual rejection of the Rest of God in Christ.

You see, having been made free by the Son, we are indeed free. This means we possess the Spirit of Liberty in Christ; but here is where obedience comes into question and not obedience to belief of something that men so often adulterate.

If we are not careful we walk according to the law and teach that except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses ye cannot be saved. This makes void the preaching of the Cross, even the purpose of the Cross.

May God Bless,
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Ray Berrian]

King James Bond,

I will make a few comments about your flimsy statements about your meanderings in theological thought. Give us something solid.

You said, 'Such a call does not imply any person whatsoever is able to come.'

Then Jesus words to us a an exercise in futility. Why would He say come if He knew people would not have the ability to respond. You don't make sense. [End Quote}.

Just because the call is there.....it does not prove people have any ability to come.

These are your contrived thoughts which do not make sense to a thoughful person. [End Quote].

Why you may ask? Because of mans wretched will.

I am deeply sorry that you think the Lord's thoughts about His will placed in every human being is wretched. [End Quote].

It is not free but rather bound and held in sins sway.

If the will were fettered as you and Luther thought, why would Jesus ask us to use our volition to drink '. . . of the water of life freely?' [End Quote}.

There are other calls to all people.

I am sure there are other calls to people. Why did you not name a couple of them. [End Quote].

Never lie! And who has not lied? Just because you are ordered not to lie does not imply you are capable of obedience.

People are commanded not to lust, not to be greedy, no selfishness, humble ourselves, honor parents, love others as our selves, do not envy, do not covet.......no murder even hate in a heart......

Yes, we agree that we are to use our wills to keep free from sins; what was your point in your list? [End Quote}.

Want a list of things we are commanded that we are incapable to do?

Yes, give them to us; don't hold back! You have wetted our appetite. [End Quote].

Just because God gave ten commandments to people does not mean people have the ability to keep them.

Unsaved people pay little attention to the Ten Commandments, except they do not want to violate the ones that might land them in prison.

Christians have the inner resource of the Holy Spirit so we can overcome our sins and become 'conformed to the Image of Christ.' But then we have to use our will to do those things that will keep us close to the Lord, such as prayer, Bible study, and attendance at a Bible believing church and finding other Christian friends. [End Quote].

It is the same with the outward calling to come to Christ......they calling may be loud and clear to all people......but people are dead.

There is no 'outward call' and 'an Effectual Call.' Whenever the Lord speaks through the Holy Spirit He is effectual; He gets His point through to the person and in the case of the sinner he or she becomes convicted and convinced of his or her lost condition before a sovereign and holy Lord God.

Please, understand an Outward Call and an Effectual Call would turn the Lord into a bias and an unjust God who favors some people and looks with a careless glance at other persons.

God would be foolish to demand that we treat other people with love and respect, even our enemies, and then set another lower standard for Himself. Read Romans 2:11; Deuteronomy 10:17; and Mark 12:14 a,b,c,d,e,f,g. In this latter case even the sinful Pharisees and Herodians believed Jesus was fair in all of His dealings; how is it that Calvinists are one step below these unbelievers? This is hard for me to understand being a Christian. [End Quote].

You said,'You should know these things already.'

Some things I agreed with you about, Mr. Bond, and I have also pointed out some of your unintentional deceptions.

Take time to review the Scripture that I have set forth. [End Quote].

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I was not trying to define your error for all to see.

That's good, because you didn't.

My statements stand as the truth that Jesus last call to sinner was not only to His elect, but was to the 'whosoever will may come.'

Yes, as has been said over and over and over and over and over again, the Gospel call is universal. We all know that. Well, all except you.

Don't be so defensive about what someone way back taught you was the truth and now are unwilling to at least see the other side which is the truth.

I am not at all defensive. I just love the truth and hate every false way. I will stick with the teachings of the bible and you can stick with the teachings of lost sinners. I really don't care.

Truth often has a way of troubing souls. Keep an open mind and God will guide you into all truth.

He already did. However, I can't help but notice you did not address the issue I brought up in my last post to you? Why are you dodging the issue? Here, I will repost it so you can answer it this time:

I don't understand how a man who claims to be a "Th.D." can be so unaware of what "free grace" and "limited atonement" are!

Every person who believes in limited atonement believes in free grace. God bestows His grace on us freely, with nothing being paid or given by us. That has absolutely nothing at all to do with limited atonement.

"Limited Atonement" simply means that the atonement was not applied to everybody, but only to those who believe, the elect.

To confuse "free grace" with "free will" is not an error a person with any Seminary training at all would make, let alone one who claims to have a doctorate in theology.

Now, instead of silly personal comments why not just address the issue?

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Bro Dallas;
It is not my wish to inflame you. I respect you and do believe that you have Christ with in your self.

Where in Scripture do you support this? If this is true, there is not one of the OT saints who are quickened at the present time and not one possessed the hope of awakening in His likeness.

My support is in the fact that you have no support for them being sheep before they hear the gospel. No Where in scripture that I know of does it say we are His before Salvation. If I'm wrong please show me.

The statement above that ends my paragraph is from the mouth of the prophet and king David. How did he know and come to be assured of his awakening in the Likeness of the messiah?

David believed in God from His Youth. God revealed it to Him. Saved they were. Born again they were not until they heard Christ preach the gospel to them during the three days He was in the tomb.

The problem with a man centered theology is that it begins, remains and perseveres in its focus upon the outward work of man, whehter it be belief as an intellectual capability or whether it be a gospel obedience to baptism, or faithful attendance upon the church, etc.

This only your opinion of what I believe it certainly isn't mine. How is it you know more about what I believe than I do. My faith has nothing to do with work although I work for the Lord. I don't work for Salvation. I just proved that to you and you won't accept it. Faith is not a work according to Romans 4:5. If you insist that it is you should be able to show scriptural support for your claim.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Ray;

My guess is these kind of persons will use their volition and still say that believing in Jesus is a work and then imply that God predestined them to think in this unlawful way in the eyes of the Lord God.

You're most likely right, but it is still my hope, someone, somewhere, will open there eyes and heart to the truth.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[johnp.]

Hello ILUVLIGHT.

No where in scripture is belief considerd a work.
The idea that belief is a work makes this verse impossible;

Faith is a work, Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." How can you say you see this nowhere in scripture?

How can someone believe and not work if belief is a work. This idea contradicts scripture.

Scripture does not contradict but unless you believe as a Calvinist you must live with contradiction and the breaking of scripture.

And the great Ray Berrian does not know faith is a work either?

No one is a sheep of His without belief.

JN 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

You are a bit short on scripture man why don't you ask instead of making false statements?

If the sheep are already there then they believe with out hearing the gospel first and that is impossible.

Faith comes by hearing man. JN 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

My support is in the fact that you have no support for them being sheep before they hear the gospel.

You have lost your support.

Born again they were not until they heard Christ preach the gospel to them during the three days He was in the tomb.

Unless a man is born again he cannot understand anything spiritual.

...someone, somewhere, will open there eyes and heart to the truth.

Only God can open what He has shut.
JN 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." 41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

Isaiah was one of the sheep as was David. The lord was his Shepherd don't yer know old chap?

john.

 

[webdog]

Faith is a work, Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." How can you say you see this nowhere in scripture?

Faith is not a work on the part of man. The "work of God" is the drawing of man to Him.

 

[johnp.]

Hello webdog.

Faith is not a work on the part of man.

All I said was that faith is a work, which it is is it not?

The "work of God" is the drawing of man to Him.

Faith is a work yes or no? John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

What is the work of God? "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

john.

 

[webdog]

Faith is a work yes or no?

No

Faith is a work yes or no? John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

This passage has no bearing one way or the other on faith. The people were asking what works they could do to earn salvation, misunderstanding what Jesus was saying in verse 27. Jesus answered that the only thing required was belief in the One who sent Him (which is the "work" of God).

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Bro Dallas;

If the sheep are already there then they believe with out hearing the gospel first and that is impossible.


Where in Scripture do you support this?

There is not one place in scripture that states we are His sheep before we believe. My Proof is the fact that it isn't even a scriptural doctrine. All you have for your proof is the thoughts of men.
Why do you believe this? where is you proof we are His sheep before we believe?. If you say Eph1:4 then I ask you how is it we were in Christ when we were chosen and aren't in Christ until we are regenerated. You see those two little words "IN HIM" are completely ignored by Calvinist. We are in Him alright when we are chosen because we believe. Christ is the only one who existed before the foundation of the world.
If the O.T. believers were regenerated or born again then there should be something about it in the O.T. They were saved, just not born again. Christ spoke to the dead In Jn 5:25 to 29 And David knew that God wouldn't leave his soul in hell.
Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore.

Even Paul knew this how is it you don't.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[johnp.]

Hello webdog.

(which is the "work" of God)

What is the work of God? Our faith is the work of God or our faith is the work God requires from us?

This passage has no bearing one way or the other on faith.

JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

I don't understand how you can say this passage has no bearing on faith, isn't believing in Jesus faith?

The question arises from the lips of the carnal, "What must we do to do the work God expects from us?
For it is: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there." 11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, 12 to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"-- but they would not listen. 13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there-- so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured. Isaiah 28:10-13.

What is the work of God? Our faith is the work of God or our faith is the work God requires from us? Either way you want it faith is a work ain't it? Cool.

JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

The colon signifies a list: to believe in the one he has sent.
That's "The work of God yes? Or to put it neater, that is the work God requires isn't it? Faith, to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. Trust that His 'finished' is true and to enjoy His rest in love and safety. He is my refuge and my salvation.

Faith is a work yes or no?

No? What's the work of God then?

john.

 

[webdog]

What is the work of God? Our faith is the work of God or our faith is the work God requires from us?

Neither. The work of God is the drawing of ALL men unto Him. Faith is not a work. Read Ephesians 2:8,9.

 

[johnp.]

Hello webdog.

Neither.

Neither? Are you kidding me? Your third option, ignore John 6:28-29, does you no credit. Please answer the question with the text don't answer the question with another text. I know what Eph 2:8-9 says I thought you were not Calvinistical. Everybody can change I suppose if God opens their ears and eyes. But He will not.

For it is by grace you have been saved... Is that what you mean? This makes no difference to whether faith is a work or not it just says it ain't our work that's all. It was by grace not your faith, your faith that you need to be a thing of no work, instead it is a thing to hard for men, a thing being impossible for men to do. To do.
MT 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
MT 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

I suppose 'impossible' becomes possible to the mighty Arminian?

The work of God is the drawing of ALL men unto Him.

Old Eli will have the night off I think. All men? The dead as well? Sodom and Judas? Judas was doomed you know? Do you know what doomed means? What of those that never get to hear? All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law... Rom 2:12.

Faith is not a work.

I'll trim it down a bit to make it simpler.
Question:
"What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Answer:
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Conclusion:
Faith is a work be told. Logical captain.

I read and have answered Ephesians as you suggested. Now be good enough to respond to the point that faith is a work as Jesus said please.

john.

 

[webdog]

Wow. Four paragraphs to answer my one sentence. If faith is a work, it is no longer grace. Period. Forget Eli, Judas, Pharaoh, and anyone else you want to add. We are saved by God's grace, through faith. It is a gift which cannot be earned. Whether you are a calvinist who thinks that faith is a gift, or a non calvinist who believes God's grace is a gift, fact remains it is still a gift. Please learn the diffference between something you earn (works) and something given (gift).

 

[johnp.]

Hello webdog.

Wow.

Question:
"What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Answer:
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Conclusion:
Faith is a work.

Now would you like to talk about this please. Explain it to me how you understand this passage because I see it saying faith is a work and you are not addressing the point.

Whether you are a calvinist who thinks that faith is a gift, or a non calvinist who believes God's grace is a gift...

I was not talking of the gift but the mechanism, For it is by grace you have been saved... Which leaves faith being a work and Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." MT 19:26.

Do you know what doomed means? Do you understand the meaning of impossible or cannot Rom 8:7? the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Unless a man is born again he cannot. For it is by grace you have been saved...
What of those that never get to hear? All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law... Rom 2:12.
These were just some questions left unanswered by you.

Now be good enough to respond to the point that faith is a work as Jesus said please or explain to me that He did not say it, that's all, I'm not asking for much am I? All you have done so far is break scripture.

john.