17th century Word Changes

[James_Newman]

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The bible likens studying to work. If we are supposed to have an easy time understanding the bible, where is that verse?

Job 23:12
Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

If a man hungers for the word of God, he will do what is necessary to understand it. I think this is the way God wants it. It is only this perverse and lazy generation that feels that we should conform God's word to meet our expectations, rather than the other way around.

Proverbs 22:13
The slothful man saith, There is a lion without, I shall be slain in the streets.

Will we allow the lion of King James english keep us from work?

 

[robycop3]

Terry Herrington:If a man hungers for the word of God, he will do what is necessary to understand it. I think this is the way God wants it. It is only this perverse and lazy generation that feels that we should conform God's word to meet our expectations, rather than the other way around.

No, Terry...It's only in THIS generation that we have a band of wannabees who think they can LIMIT GOD telling us we MUST read God's word in English ONLY from a 400-yr-old version.

Every BV ever made was in the language of its intended readership. No one ever made a Bible written in German for a French-using readership. The AV 1611 was intended for the English readers in the day of King James 1 and was written in THEIR language style.

 

[robycop3]

Here's John 3;16 from the Wycliffe Bible:
"for god loued so the world; that he gaf his oon bigetun sone, that eche man that bileueth in him perisch not: but haue euerlastynge liif,"

Now, how many people today could quickly, clearly understand that verse if they were totally unfamiliar with any Bible? Yet, it was perfectly clear to the English reader of 600 years ago.

Terry, and others, if ya wanna live in the past, ya gotta go back a lot farther than 1611 to the FIRST English Bibles, which were made several hundred years before Wycliffe's day.

 

[Phillip]

C4K, I didn't mean to sound like I was trying to cause your post a problem. I think it was very interesting. I had not thought about that and I was just wondering if dictionaries might continue to contain those words. I think you answered that very well, thank you. I agree with you 100%.

HankD
Did "Drink ye all of it." really mean to "Drink from it, all of you." in the Greek? IMHO it appears to make more sense in the NKJV, based on what was occuring. Good point Hank.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by robycop3:
Here's John 3;16 from the Wycliffe Bible:
"for god loued so the world; that he gaf his oon bigetun sone, that eche man that bileueth in him perisch not: but haue euerlastynge liif,"

Now, how many people today could quickly, clearly understand that verse if they were totally unfamiliar with any Bible? Yet, it was perfectly clear to the English reader of 600 years ago.

The interesting thing about this thread is that we are actually only talking about probably the latest revision, or the Oxford revision, which is only about 200 years old. To see how much language has changed since then and even the 1611 is interesting. What will the next 200 years bring? (Of course, I will add it, because someone will bring it up.....that is if the Lord doesn't return before then.)

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by James Newman:
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The bible likens studying to work. If we are supposed to have an easy time understanding the bible, where is that verse?

Terry your verses are interesting, but they have nothing to do with the purpose that I opened this thread. Could we please stay on track. I happen to be enjoying this thread and don't need the moderators shutting it down because we can't discuss the facts asked for. Thank you for your input, but you might want to think about starting a new thread if you are going to provide resistance to this thread to try to derail it.
THX.

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
for god loued so the world; that he gaf his oon bigetun sone, that eche man that bileueth in him perisch not: but haue euerlastynge liif,"

--------------------------------------------------


Only difference that is shown is the spelling and/or typeface. The words and the definitions of those words HAVE NOT CHANGED. This is a straw man arguement and a very poor example and excuse. It also has NOTHING to do with the topic, as Phillip continues to remind others of, he should also recognize this also is OFF TOPIC.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

This thread was supposed to deal with word changes since the 17th century. It keeps leaving that topic.

We are on page five. If it does not return to topic in the next few hours it will be closed at 1700 EDT today.

That is unfortunate - for this could be an excellent thread.

 

[Phillip]

Michelle,
There is no "argument" here, we are NOT arguing anything, we are simply posting differences between the King James and modern English. Spelling that has changed this much is archaic. Not only that, but the arrangement of some of the words is different. There is no straw-man if all we are doing is listing archaic words. And, all I mean by off-thread issues is that if you cannot provide positive input to this thread, then why post?

This is NOT a debate as to KJVO or ANYTHING else. I am simply compiling a list of archaic words, spellings, arrangements, or anything else in the language used that is different from the modern English we use today. Any arguments make it harder to compile that list.

Yes, I realize this is a debate area, but it is the only topic heading on the bulletin board where I can do this where the Bible scholars hang out. I don't think every single thread has to turn into a debate (especially NOT KJVO).

 

[Phillip]

Come on folks, give me some more words, lets show the moderators we can stick to the topic.

If I remember correctly there are some good OT words that have not been covered. I just don't have much research material here.

See, what is sad is that although I can read quite well, I don't KNOW when I hit a word that is archaic, but used in another way today. That is the reason I want to define these words.

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
for god loued so the world; that he gaf his oon bigetun sone, that eche man that bileueth in him perisch not: but haue euerlastynge liif,"
--------------------------------------------------


loued = loved

gaf = gave

oon = own

bigeton = begotten

sone = son

eche = each

bileueth = believeth

perisch = perish

haue = have

euerlastynge = everlasting

liif = life


NONE of these words are ARCHAIC. They are only a different spellings because the English language was not yet established/standardized in spelling, and was being established. It is important to understand the "why" concerning this issue/topic, and MUST BE EXPLAINED in light of this thread. Otherwise WRONG and INCORRECT conclusions can be made as a result. YOu are trying to show that the words are archaic and different to this modern day, to show forth your argument that the mv's are needed because the KJB is archaic, in style and words. This is UNTRUE, and these FACTS must be brought up, whether you or the moderators feel it is OFF TOPIC.


Note, these English words existed back then, and still do until this very day. This does not APPLY to your question.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Phillip]

How about "mansion"?

According to Webster's Unabridged. It means:

"a very large, impressive or stately residence.",

"something related to the moon cycles" -- unrelated here

"Archaic. a place of abode, as in John 14:2"

That is right out of Websters. Obviously it is recognized as an archaic word that today makes us think we are getting a large, impressive, house.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Michelle,

Why are you always so quick to attack the moderating team - I was SUPPORTING your statement!?!

The post involving the Wycliff translation had nothing to do with arcahic words and I AGREED with you.

 

[natters]

Have these been mentioned yet?

- bosses (Job 15:26)
- bowels
- carriage
- dam
- fats
- flowers (Lev 15:24)
- haunt
- leasing
- let (Rom 1:13)
- lusty (Judges 3:29)
- matrix
- mean
- mess
- muffler
- ouches
- overcharged
- peeled
- prevent
- pulse
- quit
- rank
- reins
- road
- single
- strait
- suffer
- talent
- target
- tired
- translate
- want

 

[Phillip]

Good list Natters, since I am making a list could you possibly provide the 17th century meanings? THANK YOU, I think I know a few, but you've really got me on many of them.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I have a wonderful list in the back of my Trinitarian Bible Society KJV.

 

[Phillip]

I guess you might have to violate copyright law to share that list in its entirety.

 

[natters]

Oh, sorry.

I guess that would be helpful.

- bosses = Bump-like shapes on a shield (Job 15:26)
- bowels = affections (Philemon 1:7)
- carriage = baggage, luggage (Acts 21:15)
- dam = mother (Ex0 22:30)
- fats = vats (Joel 2:24)
- flowers = menstrual flow (Lev 15:24)
- haunt = one's place where they usually can be found (1 Sam 23:22)
- leasing = deceit (Psa 4:2)
- let = prevented (Rom 1:13)
- lusty = healthy and strong (Judges 3:29)
- matrix = womb (Exo 13:12)
- mean = common (Prov 22:29)
- mess = portion of food, a meal (Gen 43:34)
- muffler = veil to cover the face (Isa 3:19)
- ouches = sockets for jewels (Exo 28:11)
- overcharged = weighed down (Luke 21:34)
- peeled = smooth, bald (Isa 18:2)
- prevent = go before (1 Thess 4:15)
- pulse = Peas, beans (2 Sam 17:28)
- quit = found not guilty (Exo 21:19), behave (1 Sam 4:9)
- rank = full-grown (Gen 41:5)
- reins = kidneys (Job 16:13)
- road = raid (1 Sam 27:10)
- single = clear, pure, healthy (Matt 6:22)
- strait = close together (Matt 7:13), be in distress (Luke 12:50)
- suffer = allow (Exo 22:18)
- talent = weight of money (Matt 25:24)
- target = small shield (1 Sam 17:6)
- tired = put something around the head, turban (2 Kings 9:30)
- translate = remove to another place (2 Sam 3:10)
- want = lack (Psa 23:1)

 

[russell55]

1 Thes. 5:14:

Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all [men].

In present day use of the word feebleminded, it means "mentally deficient". When it was used in the translation of the KJV, however, it meant "wavering in conviction" or "irresolute". The NKJV translates it as "fainthearted".

There's a whole list here. It's where I'm finding some of the ones I'm posting. It has a lot of definitions, etc, that I think are wrong, though, and a lot of the words aren't really obsolete, but just a bit obscure.

Like countervail, for instance. It may not be a common word, but it's a perfectly acceptable word, and it's perfectly suitable where it's used in the KJV.

[ October 13, 2004, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[Phillip]

Thank you Natters and Russell55. It appears we are on track again, this is becoming productive. Good editions to my list. GREAT!!!!!!Thank you!

C4K, take note, (Please???)