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Yelsew
Guest
Paul is writing to believers, Born again Christians in Philipi! He is not writing to unbelievers!
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Calvinism and belief
- Thread starter Helen
- Start date
Yes Yelsew, you are correct. But Jesus was speaking to unbelieving Jews in John 6.29; so how many scripture do you need.
And further, if it is God who worketh in believers, then is it after believing that we lose our free will?
I think you have these things reversed. It is more logical to propose that we have no free will to please God in any way prior to regeneration (being born again) but that afterward our will has been made free. What is it, if the Son make you free ye are free indeed. How can we sound the depths of that passage??? Mark...Twain>>>>>
So, then your belief makes a sinner, who hates God and his Christ to have a free(er) will than a regenerated child of God; and you carry it further even to say that the latter can be cast away while the former must have a free opportunity to come under his/her own deprived will.
Ye do err.
Bro. Dallas
And further, if it is God who worketh in believers, then is it after believing that we lose our free will?
I think you have these things reversed. It is more logical to propose that we have no free will to please God in any way prior to regeneration (being born again) but that afterward our will has been made free. What is it, if the Son make you free ye are free indeed. How can we sound the depths of that passage??? Mark...Twain>>>>>
So, then your belief makes a sinner, who hates God and his Christ to have a free(er) will than a regenerated child of God; and you carry it further even to say that the latter can be cast away while the former must have a free opportunity to come under his/her own deprived will.
Ye do err.
Bro. Dallas
Y
Yelsew
Guest
And through your belief in Jesus you receive that free gift, a reward for something you did not do, but rather for something that you are.
Jesus said to wit "you believe in me and I will give to you Eternal life. Interestingly He does not give the same gift to those who do not believe in Him. Thus the reward for believing is eternal life. The reward for unbelief is the unbeliever is cast into the lake of fire. Surely you can see the truth in that.
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Yelsew
Guest
In John 6:29 Jesus is telling those unbelieving Jews that what they must do is believe in the one the father sent...Him!
After we believe we are given even greater freedom to exercise our free will. We are enabled to do that which we are commanded to do.
Regeneration is the result of faith, it is by faith that we please the Father, because we are doing the work he commanded of us, and that is to believe in the one whom He sent.
How can one who has not the promise of eternal life, be freer than the one who does have the promise? You are very confused Frogman!
You have misread me for many months my friend, It is you who is confused about the timing and order of things spiritual.
my apologies. I have not abandon this thread. Our oldest daughter came over with some math problems in her university course and stayed for dinner and then we have discussed all manner of things....I'll be back either later this evening or tomorrow morning. In the meantime, from what I skimmed, I would suggest taking verses in context and using Bible to explain Bible. Just some thoughts...
Yelsew, why do you think I ignore biblical truth? I do not. What I do try to do, is to take into account the whole counsel of God, even when that bothers people sometimes. What I do not understand is why you would want to promote a Roman Catholic synergistic view of salvation.
Eph 2:4-6 says "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ ( by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," NASU
Did you notice God's activity here? It was He who made us alive, He who raised us, and He who seated us in the heavenlies. Salvation is all of the Lord.
As far as Ro. 10:17 is concerned, it should be informative to realize that many many people hear the Word of God, yet not all are saved. Why is that? What is necessary to be saved? Faith. But not just any faith, cf the faith of the devils. No, it must be the kind of faith spoken of by Paul in the above passage to the Ephesians, a faith that comes from God. There is no doubt but that God uses means when He saves a wretched sinner, and ordinarily that means is hearing the Word of God preached, but, it also can occur when a person hears a hymn, or even a testimony, etc. That is to say, it is not the case that the only way a person is saved is by listening to the Word of God, as the persons who often try to use Ro. 10:17 as a proof text would want to maintain. God saves people in whatever way He deems best. But in whatever way He saves people, it is He who does the saving. True faith will always follow when God takes out our hearts of stone and gives us a new heart, one that beats for Him.
And that this faith is a gift from God is evident from passages like
Eph 2:7-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
NASU
John 1:13
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
NASU
2 Tim 2:25
25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
NASU
Phil 1:29
29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
NASU
Heb 12:2
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
NASU
1 John 5:1
A Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
NASU
Rom 3:24-25
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
NASU
Ezek 11:19-21
19 "And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God.
NASU
Ezek 36:26-28
26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
NASU
Blessings
Eph 2:4-6 says "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ ( by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," NASU
Did you notice God's activity here? It was He who made us alive, He who raised us, and He who seated us in the heavenlies. Salvation is all of the Lord.
As far as Ro. 10:17 is concerned, it should be informative to realize that many many people hear the Word of God, yet not all are saved. Why is that? What is necessary to be saved? Faith. But not just any faith, cf the faith of the devils. No, it must be the kind of faith spoken of by Paul in the above passage to the Ephesians, a faith that comes from God. There is no doubt but that God uses means when He saves a wretched sinner, and ordinarily that means is hearing the Word of God preached, but, it also can occur when a person hears a hymn, or even a testimony, etc. That is to say, it is not the case that the only way a person is saved is by listening to the Word of God, as the persons who often try to use Ro. 10:17 as a proof text would want to maintain. God saves people in whatever way He deems best. But in whatever way He saves people, it is He who does the saving. True faith will always follow when God takes out our hearts of stone and gives us a new heart, one that beats for Him.
And that this faith is a gift from God is evident from passages like
Eph 2:7-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
NASU
John 1:13
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
NASU
2 Tim 2:25
25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
NASU
Phil 1:29
29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
NASU
Heb 12:2
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
NASU
1 John 5:1
A Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
NASU
Rom 3:24-25
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
NASU
Ezek 11:19-21
19 "And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God.
NASU
Ezek 36:26-28
26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
NASU
Blessings
Helen, hope you fared well with the math homework... aaarrrggggg.... math..... 
any ways.... I hope that you have seen some serious Scripture brought to bear on this issue. Needless to say the Calvinist (again, and just for clarification, the Christian..... which is not to say that non-Calvinists are non-Christians for the overly sensitive amongst us! ) does indeed use Scripture in context, and uses the Bible to interpret the Bible. It is incumbent on you to show that this is not the case, if that is what you believe. You might also know that along with some of the other great truths to be clearly and loudly proclaimed during the Reformation (though certainly not limited to it, strictly speaking) was the very principle you are interested in furthering, namely Sola Scriptura, brought to you from the same people who brought you Sola Fide and Sola Gratia..... we can thank the Reformers for putting down the fanciful allegorical interpretation method that was so prevalent, and bringing us to the most commonly used method among conservative Christians today, the literal grammatical historical hermeneutic....
blessings
any ways.... I hope that you have seen some serious Scripture brought to bear on this issue. Needless to say the Calvinist (again, and just for clarification, the Christian..... which is not to say that non-Calvinists are non-Christians for the overly sensitive amongst us!
) does indeed use Scripture in context, and uses the Bible to interpret the Bible. It is incumbent on you to show that this is not the case, if that is what you believe. You might also know that along with some of the other great truths to be clearly and loudly proclaimed during the Reformation (though certainly not limited to it, strictly speaking) was the very principle you are interested in furthering, namely Sola Scriptura, brought to you from the same people who brought you Sola Fide and Sola Gratia..... we can thank the Reformers for putting down the fanciful allegorical interpretation method that was so prevalent, and bringing us to the most commonly used method among conservative Christians today, the literal grammatical historical hermeneutic....blessings
Y
Yelsew
Guest
John Owen,
What would God have need of faith in?
Does he report to a higher God?
Is God accountable to another?
Is there something that God does not know?
Is there something that God does not see?
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen! What pray tell is there that God hopes for? And what is there that He cannot see?
God has no faith to give to man! But He does offer man hope and that which man hopes for is presently unseen by man.
It is man that must have faith, and God the Son is the object of that faith. Everlasting life is the promise associated with faith in Jesus Christ. NO, GOD HAS NO FAITH TO DISPENSE UNTO MAN!
Scriptures state that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, faith does not come as the result of regeneration, because faith is regeneration.
Paul was recruited in a highly unusual manner while he was dead in his transgressions that's for sure. But Grace is not what saves, it is the environment in which one is saved through faith!
I have never said anything to the contrary, but there never has been one who did not have faith in God that was saved, and God has no faith, therefore He has none to give us. We must have our own faith in God.
The devils have no faith, but they do believe, they know who Jesus is, and they obey Him! Faith does not come from God, faith is a 100% totally human thing. God has no faith to give to man! Who or what would the God of all creation and of all Eternity have to do with faith? He ain't got none!
Heart of stone is a figure of speech. What God's word does is persuasion in our hearts. That persuasion transforms our hearts from unbelief to belief in God. This is not Rocket science, nor is it mysticism. Every day, each and every one of us "hears" something that becomes an element of persuasiveness in our hearts. At some point, with enough elements of persuasiveness assembled, we become convinced that what we have heard is the truth, and we learn to trust that truth and make it part of us. Thus we have faith in what we believe is truth. When we are convinced that Jesus is real, and that He is the Living Son of God, the Messiah, then we confess that and submit ourselves to Him and he regenerates us into born again Christians.
God has no faith to give to man!
What would God have need of faith in?
Does he report to a higher God?
Is God accountable to another?
Is there something that God does not know?
Is there something that God does not see?
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen! What pray tell is there that God hopes for? And what is there that He cannot see?
God has no faith to give to man! But He does offer man hope and that which man hopes for is presently unseen by man.
It is man that must have faith, and God the Son is the object of that faith. Everlasting life is the promise associated with faith in Jesus Christ. NO, GOD HAS NO FAITH TO DISPENSE UNTO MAN!
Faith is not the gift of God, "being saved" is the gift of God to man who has faith! Grace is the environment that God established in which man can come to faith and thereby be saved.
That's right, it is God who brings man to him through new birth, but only those who have faith! The unfaithful are cast into the lake of fire! Revelation 20:15
Paul is teaching his youthful protege Timothy to watch out for false teachers.
Here we see that it is man that must do the believing, and the subsequent suffering for the Christ's sake, all the while in God's Grace.
Yes, in faith we fix our eyes on Jesus who inspired us to faith in himself, and who by our continuing growth in Christ Jesus become perfected in our faith.
That's right we become that which we believe in. If we believe in Jesus we are thus born of God for Jesus is God!
Jesus atoned for our sins, thus we are justified by the gift of God's grace, Jesus. We are released from the penalty of sin, so that by our faith in Him we are not judged but given everlasting life. Those who do not have faith in him are judged, and are cast into the lake of fire.
Ezekiel is speaking of the Jews, God's elect race. However, for all who have faith in God, our hearts have been transformed into a heart of flesh, meaning a living heart.
Likewise Ezekiel is speaking of the Jews, God's elect race. Jesus came unto his own and his own received him not!
Yelsew: Regeneration is the application of spiritual life that awakens the sinner from the stupor of spiritual death, enabling him to see,to understand,and to grasp Christ as He is offered freely in the gospel. The Baptist confession of faith defines this regeneration in terms of effectual calling; this effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead. Baptist Confession, Chapter 10,section 2.
Helen said:
Now, it appears to me that Calvinists are trying to have it both ways. They claim that to believe before salvation is a 'work'.
There is a name for this kind of argumentation, Helen: a "straw man." The Calvinist position is the Biblical position, that it is impossible for the natural man to perform any act that pleases God, "[f]or the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:7-8).
If the natural man exercised his libertarian free will and called upon God for salvation, that certainly would please God, wouldn't it? So it won't happen.
It takes a supernatural act of God to enable a natural man to act against his nature. As I said earlier: "I can believe, as I have been commanded." Why can I believe? Because God has enabled me to believe. Consider:
Now, it appears to me that Calvinists are trying to have it both ways. They claim that to believe before salvation is a 'work'.
There is a name for this kind of argumentation, Helen: a "straw man." The Calvinist position is the Biblical position, that it is impossible for the natural man to perform any act that pleases God, "[f]or the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:7-8).
If the natural man exercised his libertarian free will and called upon God for salvation, that certainly would please God, wouldn't it? So it won't happen.
It takes a supernatural act of God to enable a natural man to act against his nature. As I said earlier: "I can believe, as I have been commanded." Why can I believe? Because God has enabled me to believe. Consider:
Paul and Silas went to Philippi and preached to those women who gathered by the river. Only one is mentioned as having believed: Lydia. We are told why: because the Lord opened her heart to give heed. Without that act of God, Lydia would have heard the words but not received the message. God enabled her to believe.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Ransom, there are quite a number of examples of "natural man" finding favor in the eyes of the Lord. So there goes your "impossible for" declaration.
Hebrews 11 is full of such examples of "natural men" who existed before the coming of "The Comforter" at Pentacost. They did not have the "regeneration of the Holy Spirit" to make them able to receive God. God spoke directly to them because they found favor in eyes of the Lord God. How did those men who found favor do what pleases God? They all had faith, a 100% totally human behavioral trait. Their faith was not the result of regeneration, there faith was the result of them believing there is a God, and obeying the voice of God. Nothing has changed over the millenniums. Faith still precedes regeneration.
As for "the calvinist position is the biblical position" That is pure hogwash! Calvin was no where to be found when the bible was compiled from the writings available. Calvin built his hypotheses based upon existing writings, and like all men, his opportunity for error is nearly 100% So if you are basing your faith upon the scribblings of Calvin, you may well be following a blind guide! But that is your free will choice to do so!
Another example:
Could he have done so by his own ability? Obviously not.
In Lazarus' natural state, he could accomplish nothing at all. It took a supernatural act to enable him to obey Christ - but having been raised from death to life, how could he not obey? Having been enabled to see the alternative, would he want to remain in the tomb?
Similarly . . .
Is my belief in Christ an act of obedience to God's command? Yes.
Could I have done so by my own ability? No.
In my natural state, I could do nothing at all to please God. It took a supernatural act to enable me to obey - but having been raised from death to life, how could I not obey? Having been enabled to see the alternative, would I want to remain in a lost state?
Did Lazarus obey Christ's command to come out of the tomb? Obviously.
Could he have done so by his own ability? Obviously not.
In Lazarus' natural state, he could accomplish nothing at all. It took a supernatural act to enable him to obey Christ - but having been raised from death to life, how could he not obey? Having been enabled to see the alternative, would he want to remain in the tomb?
Similarly . . .
Is my belief in Christ an act of obedience to God's command? Yes.
Could I have done so by my own ability? No.
In my natural state, I could do nothing at all to please God. It took a supernatural act to enable me to obey - but having been raised from death to life, how could I not obey? Having been enabled to see the alternative, would I want to remain in a lost state?
Yelsew said:
Ransom, there are quite a number of examples of "natural man" finding favor in the eyes of the Lord. So there goes your "impossible for" declaration.
Well, I can believe you, or I can believe the plain words of God-breathed Scripture. Which would you recommend?
Ransom, there are quite a number of examples of "natural man" finding favor in the eyes of the Lord. So there goes your "impossible for" declaration.
Well, I can believe you, or I can believe the plain words of God-breathed Scripture. Which would you recommend?
Paul even explains why the Jews received Him not.
Romans 11.
Consider if the Jews had accepted Christ where would that leave the Gentiles? Acceptance of Christ by the Jews would have meant no sacrifice...
Also, know that it was as a King the Jews rejected Christ. They rejected the message of Salvation true, but it was his Kingship they rejected.
Bro. Dallas
Bro. Dallas
Romans 11.
Consider if the Jews had accepted Christ where would that leave the Gentiles? Acceptance of Christ by the Jews would have meant no sacrifice...
Also, know that it was as a King the Jews rejected Christ. They rejected the message of Salvation true, but it was his Kingship they rejected.
Bro. Dallas
Bro. Dallas
OK, I’ve copied onto a Word file all the posts to now-- 24 pages! Since I started the thread I figure I owe a response, so I’ll try to do it by name and go through each of the posts.
Michael Wrenn, thank you!
Frogman, when you quoted John 6:29, I think you missed Jesus’ intent – the disciples had asked what God required them to do, and Jesus answered by saying “the work of God is this….” Meaning “this is the work God requires” in answer to their question, not “This is the work that God does.” And then Jesus told them to believe. This is something they were to do, not a work, but faith. If faith were a work, then Paul would not have stated in Ephesians that we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works! Faith is biblically separated from works and is not a work as far as the biblical definition there is concerned. Thus, the only thing an unbeliever can ‘do’ to please God, or ‘do God’s work’ is believe – which is no work at all but rather an attitude or heart response, which the disciples understood.
You stated again in your next post that it is the work ‘of’ God in the sense that God does the work, but if you take the verse in context as Jesus’ response to the disciples, which is what should be done, you will see he is showing them that God requires NO work, but does require belief. The verse never indicates that God is the one who does this work, but rather that this is all anyone can do, which is not a work at all!
In the meantime, the works of BELIEVERS do have rewards, which I think is something we all agree on? But salvation itself being a reward? No way. I fully agree with you here. But I think perhaps yelsew is using the word ‘reward’ as a synonym for ‘consequence.’ I hope he will correct me if I have him wrong on this.
Later you seemed to indicate that you felt that the saved Christian might have less free will than the unsaved person according to what we are presenting. No, that is not true at all. Men are free on either side of that fence. You will notice that Genesis 8:21, when God is speaking to Noah, says that the TENDENCY or INCLINATION (depends on your translation) of every man’s heart is to the evil, even from childhood. However tendencies can be fought against, and our entire system of laws is built on this presumption. Regeneration changes the heart from this tendency to a new heart, TENDING toward God Himself. This is why the unregenerate finds it so easy to make excuses for the wrong things he does (and he knows they are wrong – especially if he gets caught!), and the Christian is saddened by them and repents. We don’t WANT to do wrong things, or sin, even though we still do. This is the change in heart. We are still free to choose whether or not to sin in either case – and this is why Christians still sin. We battle the flesh. But the unregenerate battle the actual knowledge they have of the truth and will eventually either suppress or bow to it. Those who do the latter, believing the truth to actually be true, will be led to Christ, who IS the Truth. But unregenerate or regenerate, our wills remain free; it is the tendencies/inclinations of our hearts which change. This is the change from the heart we have hardened towards the reality of our own sins and the truth and the heart which embraces God – THE Truth. No will is unable to make a choice during life here on earth. At the point of death, however, no change is possible.
I will add here that I do strongly suspect ‘deathbed repentances’ as unless the person has actually been searching for the truth his or her whole life, rather than progressively hardening their own hearts to it, they wouldn’t recognize it at that point any more than they did days before or weeks before.
In your last post (as I am reading them now), you stated that Romans 11 states WHY the Jews rejected Christ. No, it doesn’t. It tells the results; how God used their rejection. What would have happened otherwise is something locked away in God’s knowledge, not ours. But I do know there would always have been a way for all of us, no matter what the Jews did. For God so loved the WORLD.
The Calvinists want to claim the use of the world there means either simply the elect or people from all parts of the world, but there is nothing to indicate that in the verse apart from the presupposition of Calvinism. Consider for instance that the world would hate us, as it hated Him first. That use of ‘world’ is most certainly not referring to the elect!
Yelsew, I agree with many of your posts, but disagree with your response to Frogman, for the reasons stated above. I think it is mostly a semantic thing, but since I am trying to respond to everyone here….
I do agree entirely with your first response to massdak (which is as far as I have gotten as I type this!)
You told John Own later that faith is regeneration, and with this I do disagree. Faith is the path or open door through which Christ enters and then works His saving grace of regeneration through the agency of the Holy Spirit. But faith itself is not salvation or regeneration. It is, rather, the way by which it enters.
Later you were making a distinction between faith and hope – that God gives us hope but ‘has no faith to give.’ That is a fascinating concept and I want to run that by Barry and think on it awhile. According to the Hebrews definition of faith, I think you are right! I had not thought of this before. But we know God does give us hope, and, yes, that is an entirely different matter. Thank you for getting me to think again about something new to me.
Note: just as I was finishing down at the bottom with Ransom, Barry woke up and came in (he’s a late sleeper!). I told him about your distinction between faith and hope and that God has no faith to give, and he agreed he had never thought about that before in your terms. His response was “Well done!” – meaning, more right now I think, that it is definitely worth thinking about more than that he fully agrees. We’ll be doing some thinking here!
I definitely appreciated your responses to the list of Bible verses given by John Owen. Thank you for indicating their context to those who are reading this thread.
massdak, If God were responsible for our belief, then we would not be begged, literally, by Jesus and the Apostles, to believe. Belief or unbelief are both resting on the individual as his free response to God, and have nothing to do with sin nature. Even a sinner can respond to something good, and God is most certainly good!
tnelson, Romans 1:16 is completely in line with the need to hear the Gospel in order to have faith in Jesus. Romans 9:16 points out that our works mean nothing, but we are saved by God’s mercy – His grace. Neither of these verses have anything to do with the idea of predestination or that God regenerates before He engenders belief in a person.
Yelsew answered you well there, I think.
John Owen, thank you for your responses. I do think you touched a raw nerve when you seemed to indicate that only Calvinists were Christians! Your response to yelsew on this point really was rather rude. It was not a matter of pleasing him, but of implying that if anyone is not a Calvinist he is going to hell!
You used the term ‘saving faith’, as though faith saved. It does not. We are saved by GRACE – God’s grace – but THROUGH faith – our faith. Faith is the tunnel, or path, that God has used to exercise the grace of salvation in us. That path belongs to each of us. We can do nothing but open our hearts, and that gift of opening or keeping shut is ours, and is a gift – also free – from God. Jesus truly stands at the door and knocks. IF any man open, THEN He will enter. If faith indeed were what saved, then of course it would have to be from God. But faith is the path – the open door—, not the grace, and it is grace which saves.
If belief were to come after salvation, first of all, it would not be necessary, and secondly, the Bible would not plead for sinners – the unregenerate – to believe!
Being born again certainly increases faith, but that bit that opens the door, however fearfully or hesitantly, is man’s response to Christ. From that point on, as we are matured in Christ through the Holy Spirit, our faith and trust grow as our knowledge of God Himself grows. But that first response – it is a response. It is the response of a drowning man to a life preserver thrown to him. He did not make it or throw it, but he is allowed to choose whether or not to grab onto it.
Then you seemed to say, if I understood you correctly, that if faith were not a gift, it would be a work! Faith is a response, one way or the other, and is clearly defined by Paul as NOT being a work! So I don’t think it is right to try to separate the definitions as a matter of timing. Faith either is or is not a work, not matter when it occurs, and the Bible clearly separates faith from work!
No, of course a man cannot pull himself up by his own bootstraps. But a man can choose to hold onto the rope that Christ is pulling him up with! There is a big difference.
Your use of Philippians 2:12 – 13 does not work here. Paul is encouraging the Philippians, because for the saved person it is indeed God who is working through them, reaching out to the rest of the world. And that is something that should indeed cause us some fear and trembling lest our own personalities and faults get in the way! As I mentioned in another post, however, in verse 13, the word translated “works” in relation to God is the Greek ‘energeo’, which means to put energy into. God is energizing the believer to do the works God has created for him to do. That is the Greek meaning of that passage and is fully in line with Ephesians 2:10 which stated that “we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” The Philippians verse has nothing to do with coming to salvation, but with life after salvation.
And yes, God changes the heart from that TENDING toward evil all the time to one TENDING to Him (good) all the time. But God does not do that AGAINST the person’s will. God does not change the will if the person is not willing for that change to be made. That is one of the major themes of the Bible: “I would….but you were not willing….” Is something we see from Jesus concerning Jerusalem as well as other times in the Old Testament. We are allowed to oppose God’s will for us for this time on earth. We are allowed to choose to allow Him to change us or not. This most certainly does not even slightly dent or scratch is divine omnipotence and sovereignty. He is bigger than that.
Please, I don’t think yelsew is coming anywhere near close to a Roman Catholic view. The Bible simply asks us to believe. This is our correct response to God and the open door through which He will walk. But we don’t walk; He does. We don’t do the work; He does. To term belief as a work is contrary to the Bible. And belief is all we are asked to show.
If you look at his posts you will see that he never says that salvation is not ALL of the Lord. It is just that we can choose to accept or reject. That does not mean we have produced or helped with, in any way, our own salvation. It simply means we have repented of our sins and accepted it.
Can repentance come before salvation? Most assuredly! John’s baptism came first.
Coming down to your response to the math homework – it went well. She caught me in a couple of errors as we were working out the equations and that was wonderful! It showed she was really understanding the whole thing. It’s been a long time since I taught that part of math (factoring polynomials and multiple quadratics) and I was rusty. She is doing great!
You said it is incumbent on me to show the Calvinist is not exegeting the Bible properly. I think I have done that in some of the responses here as well as in a number of other posts.
I would say one thing about the Reformation here: people are being encouraged to equate it with Calvinism, and I don’t think that is really proper. There were many who were against Calvinist interpretations during the Reformation. It should also be noted that there were thousands who did not hold to Roman Catholic teachings from the beginning of that church with Constantine – people and groups the RC church tried constantly to eradicate – but, as we know from Christ’s promise, His church has stood through the ages and the gates of hell have not been able to swallow it up.
Going on down in some of the exchanges again, the devils have intellectual acknowledgement of the reality of God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They do know the truth, for they were there and have had (if not still, then certainly at one time) access to the Throne of God. The Bible does NOT say, by the way, that demons have faith. It says the demons know/believe there is ONE God – and shudder. That intellectual acknowledgement has nothing to do with faith in God. They do not need faith; for where knowledge is, faith is no longer necessary. The writer to the Hebrews states that faith is ‘being sure of what we HOPE for and certain of what WE DO NOT SEE.’ This is not the position the demons are in. They have no faith in God. They have seen Him.
KayDee, regeneration IS salvation. I don’t’ see how you can separate the two. When you are regenerated you are reborn spiritually and this is the saving thing God does for us.
Your quote of 2Thessalonians 2:13-14 is a good one for pointing out something Calvinists either miss or ignore. There is nothing there about being predestined to salvation. Rather, the way of salvation has been predestined (through the Spirit AND through belief in the truth) and there is no other way. Belief in the truth is our responsibility as clearly shown by Paul in Romans 1:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men WHO SUPPRESS the truth by their wickedness, SINCE WHAT MAY BE KNOWN ABOUT GOD IS PLAIN TO THEM, BECAUSE GOD HAS MADE IT PLAIN TO THEM. (the emphasis is obviously mine)
Thus the second Thessalonians quote is pointing out that the response to the truth, by believing it, is imperative for salvation, for one cannot choose the lie and then expect the Holy Spirit will somehow override that and work his sanctification in the person.
Note also that verse 14 says we were called by the Gospel, not that we were predestined. The Gospel comes by hearing….etc. We are taught the truth, one way or another, or even have it divinely revealed to us – and are allowed to respond to it as we choose. Those who believe will be drawn to Christ by God and none who are drawn will be turned away. But it is really important that somehow Calvinists recognize the full message of the Gospel – of the entire Bible – that there is a call to simply believe to all men, and that all men are capable of that response and the choice between the lie and the Truth is freely available to all men from all times and places.
And you also misquoted Jesus in his explanation to Nicodemus. He did not say that a man must be born again to either see or understand the Kingdom of God, but that he must be born again to ENTER the Kingdom of God. I am not disputing that this may also include seeing and understanding, but simply that what you said Jesus said is not really what was said.
Brutus, Would you please show us where the Bible indicates a ‘stupor’ involved with spiritual death? Death is separation, not insensibility.
Ransom, I think you can see from the discussions that others are not considering this a ‘straw man.’ It has engendered quite a bit of discussion! You are considering faith a work. It is not – Paul makes that very clear. So for the Calvinist to claim that faith before regeneration is a work or an ‘act’ that pleases God is wrong. It is a response to God – freely allowed and biblically encouraged.
Please note that in your Acts passage, Lydia was already a worshipper of God. She was already responding to the truth that she knew. God honored that by giving her the understanding of more truth – the truth of Jesus. She had already made her choice according to as much knowledge as she had. God drew her to Christ. But her response to the truth and the resultant worship of God had come first. You shouldn’t have ignored that.
If we felt the Calvinist position was indeed the biblical position, we would not be fighting it. But we honestly feel it maligns the character of God and is not at all what the Bible is presenting.
Your use of Lazarus as an example is a faulty one. Elijah, too, raised a boy from the dead (presumably apart from his permission), as did Peter. None of these things have to do with spiritual regeneration, however. They instead show the power of God over death to all who pay attention.
Does obedience require regeneration? No, it doesn’t. If it did, then all the unregenerate would at all times be breaking all Ten Commandments. That is something we do not see. Rather, with the Orthodox Jews as an excellent example, we see very law-abiding people who are not regenerate – they are obeying, to the best of their ability, the OT law as they understand it.
=============
Thank you all for your patience with this post. I have tried to respond to everyone as I could.
Helen
Michael Wrenn, thank you!
Frogman, when you quoted John 6:29, I think you missed Jesus’ intent – the disciples had asked what God required them to do, and Jesus answered by saying “the work of God is this….” Meaning “this is the work God requires” in answer to their question, not “This is the work that God does.” And then Jesus told them to believe. This is something they were to do, not a work, but faith. If faith were a work, then Paul would not have stated in Ephesians that we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works! Faith is biblically separated from works and is not a work as far as the biblical definition there is concerned. Thus, the only thing an unbeliever can ‘do’ to please God, or ‘do God’s work’ is believe – which is no work at all but rather an attitude or heart response, which the disciples understood.
You stated again in your next post that it is the work ‘of’ God in the sense that God does the work, but if you take the verse in context as Jesus’ response to the disciples, which is what should be done, you will see he is showing them that God requires NO work, but does require belief. The verse never indicates that God is the one who does this work, but rather that this is all anyone can do, which is not a work at all!
In the meantime, the works of BELIEVERS do have rewards, which I think is something we all agree on? But salvation itself being a reward? No way. I fully agree with you here. But I think perhaps yelsew is using the word ‘reward’ as a synonym for ‘consequence.’ I hope he will correct me if I have him wrong on this.
Later you seemed to indicate that you felt that the saved Christian might have less free will than the unsaved person according to what we are presenting. No, that is not true at all. Men are free on either side of that fence. You will notice that Genesis 8:21, when God is speaking to Noah, says that the TENDENCY or INCLINATION (depends on your translation) of every man’s heart is to the evil, even from childhood. However tendencies can be fought against, and our entire system of laws is built on this presumption. Regeneration changes the heart from this tendency to a new heart, TENDING toward God Himself. This is why the unregenerate finds it so easy to make excuses for the wrong things he does (and he knows they are wrong – especially if he gets caught!), and the Christian is saddened by them and repents. We don’t WANT to do wrong things, or sin, even though we still do. This is the change in heart. We are still free to choose whether or not to sin in either case – and this is why Christians still sin. We battle the flesh. But the unregenerate battle the actual knowledge they have of the truth and will eventually either suppress or bow to it. Those who do the latter, believing the truth to actually be true, will be led to Christ, who IS the Truth. But unregenerate or regenerate, our wills remain free; it is the tendencies/inclinations of our hearts which change. This is the change from the heart we have hardened towards the reality of our own sins and the truth and the heart which embraces God – THE Truth. No will is unable to make a choice during life here on earth. At the point of death, however, no change is possible.
I will add here that I do strongly suspect ‘deathbed repentances’ as unless the person has actually been searching for the truth his or her whole life, rather than progressively hardening their own hearts to it, they wouldn’t recognize it at that point any more than they did days before or weeks before.
In your last post (as I am reading them now), you stated that Romans 11 states WHY the Jews rejected Christ. No, it doesn’t. It tells the results; how God used their rejection. What would have happened otherwise is something locked away in God’s knowledge, not ours. But I do know there would always have been a way for all of us, no matter what the Jews did. For God so loved the WORLD.
The Calvinists want to claim the use of the world there means either simply the elect or people from all parts of the world, but there is nothing to indicate that in the verse apart from the presupposition of Calvinism. Consider for instance that the world would hate us, as it hated Him first. That use of ‘world’ is most certainly not referring to the elect!
Yelsew, I agree with many of your posts, but disagree with your response to Frogman, for the reasons stated above. I think it is mostly a semantic thing, but since I am trying to respond to everyone here….
I do agree entirely with your first response to massdak (which is as far as I have gotten as I type this!)
You told John Own later that faith is regeneration, and with this I do disagree. Faith is the path or open door through which Christ enters and then works His saving grace of regeneration through the agency of the Holy Spirit. But faith itself is not salvation or regeneration. It is, rather, the way by which it enters.
Later you were making a distinction between faith and hope – that God gives us hope but ‘has no faith to give.’ That is a fascinating concept and I want to run that by Barry and think on it awhile. According to the Hebrews definition of faith, I think you are right! I had not thought of this before. But we know God does give us hope, and, yes, that is an entirely different matter. Thank you for getting me to think again about something new to me.
Note: just as I was finishing down at the bottom with Ransom, Barry woke up and came in (he’s a late sleeper!). I told him about your distinction between faith and hope and that God has no faith to give, and he agreed he had never thought about that before in your terms. His response was “Well done!” – meaning, more right now I think, that it is definitely worth thinking about more than that he fully agrees. We’ll be doing some thinking here!
I definitely appreciated your responses to the list of Bible verses given by John Owen. Thank you for indicating their context to those who are reading this thread.
massdak, If God were responsible for our belief, then we would not be begged, literally, by Jesus and the Apostles, to believe. Belief or unbelief are both resting on the individual as his free response to God, and have nothing to do with sin nature. Even a sinner can respond to something good, and God is most certainly good!
tnelson, Romans 1:16 is completely in line with the need to hear the Gospel in order to have faith in Jesus. Romans 9:16 points out that our works mean nothing, but we are saved by God’s mercy – His grace. Neither of these verses have anything to do with the idea of predestination or that God regenerates before He engenders belief in a person.
Yelsew answered you well there, I think.
John Owen, thank you for your responses. I do think you touched a raw nerve when you seemed to indicate that only Calvinists were Christians! Your response to yelsew on this point really was rather rude. It was not a matter of pleasing him, but of implying that if anyone is not a Calvinist he is going to hell!
You used the term ‘saving faith’, as though faith saved. It does not. We are saved by GRACE – God’s grace – but THROUGH faith – our faith. Faith is the tunnel, or path, that God has used to exercise the grace of salvation in us. That path belongs to each of us. We can do nothing but open our hearts, and that gift of opening or keeping shut is ours, and is a gift – also free – from God. Jesus truly stands at the door and knocks. IF any man open, THEN He will enter. If faith indeed were what saved, then of course it would have to be from God. But faith is the path – the open door—, not the grace, and it is grace which saves.
If belief were to come after salvation, first of all, it would not be necessary, and secondly, the Bible would not plead for sinners – the unregenerate – to believe!
Being born again certainly increases faith, but that bit that opens the door, however fearfully or hesitantly, is man’s response to Christ. From that point on, as we are matured in Christ through the Holy Spirit, our faith and trust grow as our knowledge of God Himself grows. But that first response – it is a response. It is the response of a drowning man to a life preserver thrown to him. He did not make it or throw it, but he is allowed to choose whether or not to grab onto it.
Then you seemed to say, if I understood you correctly, that if faith were not a gift, it would be a work! Faith is a response, one way or the other, and is clearly defined by Paul as NOT being a work! So I don’t think it is right to try to separate the definitions as a matter of timing. Faith either is or is not a work, not matter when it occurs, and the Bible clearly separates faith from work!
No, of course a man cannot pull himself up by his own bootstraps. But a man can choose to hold onto the rope that Christ is pulling him up with! There is a big difference.
Your use of Philippians 2:12 – 13 does not work here. Paul is encouraging the Philippians, because for the saved person it is indeed God who is working through them, reaching out to the rest of the world. And that is something that should indeed cause us some fear and trembling lest our own personalities and faults get in the way! As I mentioned in another post, however, in verse 13, the word translated “works” in relation to God is the Greek ‘energeo’, which means to put energy into. God is energizing the believer to do the works God has created for him to do. That is the Greek meaning of that passage and is fully in line with Ephesians 2:10 which stated that “we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” The Philippians verse has nothing to do with coming to salvation, but with life after salvation.
And yes, God changes the heart from that TENDING toward evil all the time to one TENDING to Him (good) all the time. But God does not do that AGAINST the person’s will. God does not change the will if the person is not willing for that change to be made. That is one of the major themes of the Bible: “I would….but you were not willing….” Is something we see from Jesus concerning Jerusalem as well as other times in the Old Testament. We are allowed to oppose God’s will for us for this time on earth. We are allowed to choose to allow Him to change us or not. This most certainly does not even slightly dent or scratch is divine omnipotence and sovereignty. He is bigger than that.
Please, I don’t think yelsew is coming anywhere near close to a Roman Catholic view. The Bible simply asks us to believe. This is our correct response to God and the open door through which He will walk. But we don’t walk; He does. We don’t do the work; He does. To term belief as a work is contrary to the Bible. And belief is all we are asked to show.
If you look at his posts you will see that he never says that salvation is not ALL of the Lord. It is just that we can choose to accept or reject. That does not mean we have produced or helped with, in any way, our own salvation. It simply means we have repented of our sins and accepted it.
Can repentance come before salvation? Most assuredly! John’s baptism came first.
Coming down to your response to the math homework – it went well. She caught me in a couple of errors as we were working out the equations and that was wonderful! It showed she was really understanding the whole thing. It’s been a long time since I taught that part of math (factoring polynomials and multiple quadratics) and I was rusty. She is doing great!
You said it is incumbent on me to show the Calvinist is not exegeting the Bible properly. I think I have done that in some of the responses here as well as in a number of other posts.
I would say one thing about the Reformation here: people are being encouraged to equate it with Calvinism, and I don’t think that is really proper. There were many who were against Calvinist interpretations during the Reformation. It should also be noted that there were thousands who did not hold to Roman Catholic teachings from the beginning of that church with Constantine – people and groups the RC church tried constantly to eradicate – but, as we know from Christ’s promise, His church has stood through the ages and the gates of hell have not been able to swallow it up.
Going on down in some of the exchanges again, the devils have intellectual acknowledgement of the reality of God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They do know the truth, for they were there and have had (if not still, then certainly at one time) access to the Throne of God. The Bible does NOT say, by the way, that demons have faith. It says the demons know/believe there is ONE God – and shudder. That intellectual acknowledgement has nothing to do with faith in God. They do not need faith; for where knowledge is, faith is no longer necessary. The writer to the Hebrews states that faith is ‘being sure of what we HOPE for and certain of what WE DO NOT SEE.’ This is not the position the demons are in. They have no faith in God. They have seen Him.
KayDee, regeneration IS salvation. I don’t’ see how you can separate the two. When you are regenerated you are reborn spiritually and this is the saving thing God does for us.
Your quote of 2Thessalonians 2:13-14 is a good one for pointing out something Calvinists either miss or ignore. There is nothing there about being predestined to salvation. Rather, the way of salvation has been predestined (through the Spirit AND through belief in the truth) and there is no other way. Belief in the truth is our responsibility as clearly shown by Paul in Romans 1:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men WHO SUPPRESS the truth by their wickedness, SINCE WHAT MAY BE KNOWN ABOUT GOD IS PLAIN TO THEM, BECAUSE GOD HAS MADE IT PLAIN TO THEM. (the emphasis is obviously mine)
Thus the second Thessalonians quote is pointing out that the response to the truth, by believing it, is imperative for salvation, for one cannot choose the lie and then expect the Holy Spirit will somehow override that and work his sanctification in the person.
Note also that verse 14 says we were called by the Gospel, not that we were predestined. The Gospel comes by hearing….etc. We are taught the truth, one way or another, or even have it divinely revealed to us – and are allowed to respond to it as we choose. Those who believe will be drawn to Christ by God and none who are drawn will be turned away. But it is really important that somehow Calvinists recognize the full message of the Gospel – of the entire Bible – that there is a call to simply believe to all men, and that all men are capable of that response and the choice between the lie and the Truth is freely available to all men from all times and places.
And you also misquoted Jesus in his explanation to Nicodemus. He did not say that a man must be born again to either see or understand the Kingdom of God, but that he must be born again to ENTER the Kingdom of God. I am not disputing that this may also include seeing and understanding, but simply that what you said Jesus said is not really what was said.
Brutus, Would you please show us where the Bible indicates a ‘stupor’ involved with spiritual death? Death is separation, not insensibility.
Ransom, I think you can see from the discussions that others are not considering this a ‘straw man.’ It has engendered quite a bit of discussion! You are considering faith a work. It is not – Paul makes that very clear. So for the Calvinist to claim that faith before regeneration is a work or an ‘act’ that pleases God is wrong. It is a response to God – freely allowed and biblically encouraged.
Please note that in your Acts passage, Lydia was already a worshipper of God. She was already responding to the truth that she knew. God honored that by giving her the understanding of more truth – the truth of Jesus. She had already made her choice according to as much knowledge as she had. God drew her to Christ. But her response to the truth and the resultant worship of God had come first. You shouldn’t have ignored that.
If we felt the Calvinist position was indeed the biblical position, we would not be fighting it. But we honestly feel it maligns the character of God and is not at all what the Bible is presenting.
Your use of Lazarus as an example is a faulty one. Elijah, too, raised a boy from the dead (presumably apart from his permission), as did Peter. None of these things have to do with spiritual regeneration, however. They instead show the power of God over death to all who pay attention.
Does obedience require regeneration? No, it doesn’t. If it did, then all the unregenerate would at all times be breaking all Ten Commandments. That is something we do not see. Rather, with the Orthodox Jews as an excellent example, we see very law-abiding people who are not regenerate – they are obeying, to the best of their ability, the OT law as they understand it.
=============
Thank you all for your patience with this post. I have tried to respond to everyone as I could.
Helen
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Helen,
Faith on the other hand is the condition man must have in order to be saved, for no man lacking faith is saved! Faith develops in man by man's hearing of the word. "Hearing" meaning not only the sensory reception but the incorporation of the knowledge heard into the knowledge base upon which man makes decisions. It is this knowledge base that is called upon when a decision must be made. When confronted by temptation, it is the information in the knowledge base of our mind by which our spirit decides whether or not to succumb to the temptation or to resist that temptation. Our spirit controls our flesh and not the other way around. Jesus said that it is the spirit that is the life of the flesh. When we believe in Jesus, it is the Holy Spirit that helps our spirit to make the right decisions. Without such belief, our spirit is left to its own devices.
When it comes time for our salvation, God looks upon the heart (mind and spirit) to determine whether or not we are worthy of being saved. If our faith is staid upon the Lord Jesus Christ, we are deemed worthy because our faith sanctifies us, that is, our individual faith separates us from the unbelievers, we are Jesus' sheep, and we are separated from the goats. By having faith in Jesus Christ, and living our lives, making our choices based upon that faith we are found to be "washed by the blood of Jesus" and we are not judged, (John 3:18).
All of our faith comes to us while God is behaving toward us in Grace. So Yes, God's Grace exhibited toward us enables our salvation, but it is our faith by which we are sanctified, set apart, passed from death into eternal life with Jesus, and that is our SALVATION! For by grace, are ye saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it (being saved) is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. We cannot save our selves, but we can have our own faith in the one who does save.
Which definition of Grace has the power to save man? How does it work?
Well here we must part in agreement. I must ask that you define Grace, for God's grace and man's grace cannot be different, they are both Grace. So what is grace, and what power does grace have to save?
Faith on the other hand is the condition man must have in order to be saved, for no man lacking faith is saved! Faith develops in man by man's hearing of the word. "Hearing" meaning not only the sensory reception but the incorporation of the knowledge heard into the knowledge base upon which man makes decisions. It is this knowledge base that is called upon when a decision must be made. When confronted by temptation, it is the information in the knowledge base of our mind by which our spirit decides whether or not to succumb to the temptation or to resist that temptation. Our spirit controls our flesh and not the other way around. Jesus said that it is the spirit that is the life of the flesh. When we believe in Jesus, it is the Holy Spirit that helps our spirit to make the right decisions. Without such belief, our spirit is left to its own devices.
When it comes time for our salvation, God looks upon the heart (mind and spirit) to determine whether or not we are worthy of being saved. If our faith is staid upon the Lord Jesus Christ, we are deemed worthy because our faith sanctifies us, that is, our individual faith separates us from the unbelievers, we are Jesus' sheep, and we are separated from the goats. By having faith in Jesus Christ, and living our lives, making our choices based upon that faith we are found to be "washed by the blood of Jesus" and we are not judged, (John 3:18).
All of our faith comes to us while God is behaving toward us in Grace. So Yes, God's Grace exhibited toward us enables our salvation, but it is our faith by which we are sanctified, set apart, passed from death into eternal life with Jesus, and that is our SALVATION! For by grace, are ye saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it (being saved) is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. We cannot save our selves, but we can have our own faith in the one who does save.
Which definition of Grace has the power to save man? How does it work?
Now which definition of Faith indicates the power of salvation?
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Strongly recommend that you believe the word of God, but you might do well to consider what I said, as it might just shed a different, more positive light than you are used to, upon the word of God. That is afterall what you do with Calvins words or Arminius' words, or whom ever else you trust for guidance in understanding the Word of God.