First of all a public apology to KayDee because she had to PM me to remind me to respond to her here.
OK, KayDee, I stuck your long response on a Word doc and I will go down it bit by bit instead of trying to do the double quotes.
You said regeneration and salvation are not the same thing. OK, I think we need to back up a bit here. We need to get some definitions agreed upon. I have found a lot of times that definitions can be an enormous hang-up if two people are using different ones for the same words. I think we both agree that regeneration means born again by the Holy Spirit. If I am wrong, please let me know.
But salvation. How do you define salvation? What are we saved from and what are we saved for?
So let’s hold on that one until that part gets ironed out.
You missed my point regarding your 2 Thessalonians reference. My point was that those who are believers can become believers only one way: through the agency of the Holy Spirit and through belief in the truth. This double-pronged approach is what was predestined by God, not the identities of the believers, but rather the way they would become believers.
I agree with you, going on to the next part, that God certainly knows what He is doing. I agree with you that those who end up in hell have literally chosen to be there. What we don’t agree about is that every man alive has been given a real opportunity for salvation, which can be either accepted or rejected. That is where we differ. If God were only to allow a chosen few to see the truth and respond positively to it, then the Bible is false in its main message: that salvation is available to all mankind, with the plea through all the pages of the Bible, starting with God’s address to Cain before the murder, to repent. Believe, just believe, is the message of the Bible. All the rest tells us why we should.
You added to a statement I made, saying that someone cannot choose the lie without sanctification of the Spirit.
HUH?
You have to be sanctified to choose the lie? I kind of think you could not have meant that!
When you look at verse 13 of 2 Thessalonians, you are saying that it says certain people were chosen to be saved. But that is NOT what it is saying. Read it again. It is saying that God chose the way of salvation for people, not that God chose the people to be saved. This is what I was talking about a few paragraphs ago.
You asked me to tell you where those who believe will be drawn to Christ in Scripture. Please turn to John 6:40
”For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
He began that section by saying, ”I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty”
It is in verse 44 that we read ”No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
I find Calvinists concentrate on that without noticing the apparent contradiction with the verses I quoted above it. But they are all true. If someone looks to Christ and believes, the Father draws that person TO Christ, and the Holy Spirit transforms that person into the image of Christ (that part takes time!). The Father will not draw anyone who does not believe truly in his heart. The Holy Spirit will not transform anyone who is not born again. It is a predestined application of grace for those who choose to believe. That predestined application of grace along with belief is what is talked about in your 2 Thessalonians verses.
Then you went on to verse 45: ”It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.”
ALL are taught by God, one way or another. Those who listen and learn from Him are drawn to Christ. That listening and learning is our choice. But, as Paul says in Romans 1, many suppress the truth (and what would God teach but the truth?) by their wicked actions. They see the truth. They know it is the truth. But they prefer to suppress it and act wickedly. They are not incapable of knowing that it is the truth, or they would not suppress it specifically. But Paul says that is exactly what they do.
However, when you redefined that verse 45 to be applicable only to those who believe as being those who are taught by God, then you are hanging yourself from two angles. First, you have added to Scripture. That is a very serious thing. Be very careful, please. Secondly, if God only teaches those who believe, then you are implying that the belief came first, which is directly against your main argument.
Regarding Nicodemus, Christ spoke in parallel statements, and that means He meant the same thing each time. Here are the two sentences:
”I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
and
”I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”
In other words, Jesus Himself is defining how He is using ‘see’. He is using it to mean to enter, or, if you like, to experience.
That was simply a semantic thing, I think.
KayDee, I am not a Calvinist for several reasons:
1. It is logically indefensible and relies on changed word meanings, added phrases of explanation, and even internal contradictions to try to defend its theology.
2. Jesus issues the call to ALL who are weary and heavy-laden. That is, quite literally, everyone I know. And I am sure I do not know only the elect!
3. There is nothing in anything Jesus, or Paul or Peter (thinking of the book of Acts for the last two, in particular) said which indicates the call to repent and believe was not issued to all who ever heard them, and that the call was sincere – just as though they all had a real choice in the matter!
4. To say that the man dead in sin is insensate to spiritual matters defies both Bible and experience. Why do you think all the other religions exist? For fun? People know they are ailing spiritually and all those other religions exist to tell them how they can help themselves. It is only Christ who has said, “You can’t. You don’t have to. I did it. Just believe on me.”
There are more reasons, but that’s enough for now. I do not find Calvinism to be biblical. Somewhat Augustinian, yes. Biblical, no
