Can a TRUE believer turn away from the faith?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: Jesus speaking of His sheep. John 10:5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice.

HP:JK, there are many passages that utilize thoughts such as the word ‘never’ as is utilized in the particular translation you are quoting, but that does not set aside or negate the fact that Scripture presents salvation as conditional upon remaining faithful unto the end. This passage cannot be stood on its head to suggest that we are direct parallels to sheep and ‘cannot in absolute sense’ turn from the Good Shepard.

Scripture clearly sets forth the possibility that one can, as some have, turn aside from the faith they once were in possession of, and in the end have their names blotted out of the book of life.

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP:JK, there are many passages that utilize thoughts such as the word ‘never’ as is utilized in the particular translation you are quoting, but that does not set aside or negate the fact that Scripture presents salvation as conditional upon remaining faithful unto the end. This passage cannot be stood on its head to suggest that we are direct parallels to sheep and ‘cannot in absolute sense’ turn from the Good Shepard.

Scripture clearly sets forth the possibility that one can, as some have, turn aside from the faith they once were in possession of, and in the end have their names blotted out of the book of life.

Thats why we will NEVER agree on this. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[SBCPreacher]

I see... never doesn't always mean never.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SBCPreacher: I see... never doesn't always mean never.

HP: Think of it in the same way others gloss over or ignore the word ‘if’ and the other conditions clearly mentioned in Scripture. :wavey:

Scripture is replete with instances of words that can be thought of in an absolute sense but used in a conditional sense when addressing salvation or promises of blessings, etc. The conditions do not have to be repeated in every instance for them to be rightfully assumed. The conditions are stated clearly in sufficient passages to be assumed in others that might not for various reasons spell out every exception or condition that might play into the whole scheme of things.

Can you imagine how a conversation would go with even our children if we had to reiterate every condition that would apply every time we might converse with them? Why should we assume anything different concerning Scripture written in common parlance?

 

[Marcia]

Passages used to support the view that one can lose one's salvation either have to do with loss of rewards or not being delivered from persecution.

Many warning passages were about persecution that Christians were facing, and that they needed to endure. The word "saved" or "delivered" in the Bible does not always refer to salvation in the sense of having eternal life but can mean being saved out of a situation. Context is crucial

The passages that support once saved always saved are quite clear and unambiguous. The unclear should always be interpreted in light of the clear passages.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Passages used to support the view that one can lose one's salvation either have to do with loss of rewards or not being delivered from persecution.

HP: I for one do not believe anyone can lose something that they have not gained in its entirety. It is equivalent to beating against the wind to manufacture your own sentiments to shoot down. I call it putting up your own paper ducks to shoot at.

At any rate, never has a better picture been painted of what is wrong with approaching Scripture from a presupposition. Here Marcia automatically, without examining the text on its own merit, off hand limits the understanding of the text to fit the presupposition she holds to, in this case OSAS. So much for a fair examination of any text. DHK is most likely going to ask you why you even bother conversing on these issues with your mind made up in such a manner, not willing to even consider another view if it runs counter to your presuppositions. Your mind is closed obviously.:smilewinkgrin:

Marcia: Many warning passages were about persecution that Christians were facing, and that they needed to endure. The word "saved" or "delivered" in the Bible does not always refer to salvation in the sense of having eternal life but can mean being saved out of a situation. Context is crucial

HP: Not half as crucial as merely supporting your presupposition Marcia. Have you already forgotten how you summarily dismissed any text that runs counter to your presuppositions?

Marcia: The passages that support once saved always saved are quite clear and unambiguous. The unclear should always be interpreted in light of the clear passages.

HP: Here Marcia demonstrates how sound exegesis takes place. (not) If it can be made to support her presupposition, it is said to be clear and unambiguous. If it might just happen to run counter to her presupposition, it must yield to be shown in agreement to one that supports her favorite presupposition. Simply put, all passages must be shown in agreement to her presuppositions.

Do you think your approach just might happen to be slightly self-serving? :thumbsup: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Seriously Marcia, go back to post #8 and teach us how to discern the context in these passages. Show us why they cannot be directly relating to ones salvation. I am listening.

 

[billwald]

>So the Gospel isn't really good news to you untill the next age when you find out?

The Good News is that Jesus died for the sins of the world. What is debatable is the requirements for accessing the benefits of the Gospel. Some denominations say this, some that. We have to wait for the next life to discover if we have guessed the correct this or that.

 

[Marcia]

Here Marcia automatically, without examining the text on its own merit, off hand limits the understanding of the text to fit the presupposition she holds to, in this case OSAS. So much for a fair examination of any text. :thumbsup: :smilewinkgrin:

What makes you say I haven't examined them? This is an unfair and a false statement. The smiley icons don't help.

DHK is most likely going to ask you why you even bother conversing on these issues with your mind made up in such a manner, not willing to even consider another view if it runs counter to your presuppositions. Your mind is closed obviously

I think you should let DHK speak for himself.

My mind is closed? You have no evidence for that at all. What an unfair and judgmental statement.

Not half as crucial as merely supporting your presupposition Marcia. Have you already forgotten how you summarily dismissed any text that runs counter to your presuppositions?

How about your presuppositions that I have not examined the texts and that I have presuppositions?

Do you think your approach just might happen to be slightly self-serving?

And do you think you are unfairly judging me? You have no basis for any of these statements.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Here Marcia demonstrates how sound exegesis takes place. (not) If it can be made to support her presupposition, it is said to be clear and unambiguous. If it might just happen to run counter to her presupposition, it must yield to be shown in agreement to one that supports her favorite presupposition. Simply put, all passages must be shown in agreement to her presuppositions.

Do you think your approach just might happen to be slightly self-serving? :thumbsup: :smilewinkgrin:

Have you ever considered that Marcia may be right? Or maybe your presuppositions and closed mind prevent you from seeing the truth. :thumbsup::smilewinkgrin:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moving right along....

And now for the context of the passages found in post #8.... Demonstrate your tactics for us in determining the context of the passages Marcia.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy, so nice of you to join in. :thumbs:

Possibly you could join in with Marcia and dismiss the passages of Scripture posted in post #8 via context, showing that they have nothing to do with ones salvation or standing before God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Passages used to support the view that one can lose one's salvation either have to do with loss of rewards or not being delivered from persecution.

HP: Marcia, you need to reread your comments, and Amy, I believe you need to as well. If Marcia’s comments are not summarily dismissing any passage of Scripture one would bring up against the Calvinistic notion of OSAS based on nothing short of a presupposition of OSAS, (which amount to nothing short of a fine example of reasoning in a circle and or begging the question) the Pope is not a Catholic. It is one thing to make such broad sweeping dismissals of any interpretation contrary to ones dogma, and quite another to prove it by way of sound exegesis.

The originator of this thread asked for some passages. I gave them. Now Marcia and Amy, be reasonable enough to address those passages directly showing by context, via sound exegesis in light of reasonable rules of Biblical interpretation, that those passages are not in fact warning us of the possibility of making shipwreck of the faith and in the end finding ourselves outside of the kingdom.

 

[Jedi Knight]

>So the Gospel isn't really good news to you untill the next age when you find out?

The Good News is that Jesus died for the sins of the world. What is debatable is the requirements for accessing the benefits of the Gospel. Some denominations say this, some that. We have to wait for the next life to discover if we have guessed the correct this or that.

So God won't show us on this side is your conclusion? I have had the Lord guide me through scriptures and the teacher "Holy Spirit" shows me so there is no guess work. If someone has not the spirit the bible is just a book without the authors guidance. Ever wrestle with a subject and asked God to show you the truth?

 

[ccrobinson]

He will never leave me, but I can certainly turn my back on Him. He will never forsake me, but I can forsake Him.

John 10:28-29: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

It says "no man". That would seem to include everybody. It seems to be saying that God isn't going to let go of us even if we try to let go of him.

 

[fbcodr]

God does the saving and the keeping. Our pilgramage has mountaintops and valleys. We don't save ourselves or keep ourselves saved by what we do, or how we change ourselves!!!:applause::thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The well known commentator Adam Clarke asked a serious question at the culmination of his remarks concerning John 10:27-30. He asks as if saying, ‘certainly no one would attempt to say the following would they?’ Qoute: “And will any man attempt to say that he who does not endure to the end, and is unfaithful, shall enter into eternal life?”

Sad to say Mr. Clarke, some of us have lived long enough to see whole movements with such unscriptural notions as their creed and practice. The time has certainly come where sound doctrine has no place in the minds of many.

 

[Amy.G]

When we put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ as the living son of God to save us from our sins, we entered into a covenant signed in the blood of Christ. We became God's adopted children and He became our Father. Nothing can change that. We will forever be God's children. He disciplines His children when they go astray. He does not forsake them.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy, I posted a list of Scripture created by Bob Ryan as I recall, in post #8. Are you going to tell us that none of them idicate the possibility of turning from ones faith and in the end be lost? If so, can you show us how you might interpret these passages? Thanks.

 

[ccrobinson]

So, Jesus said, "No one can pluck them out of my hand". He also said, "He who endures to the end will be saved." Are these contradictory, HP?

If salvation can be lost, this requires a reversal of regeneration and the born again must become unborn again. If they subsequently repent, then they must become born again again. Where does it end?

If salvation can be lost, it's not really eternal life, is it?

1 John 5:13 says that we can know that we have eternal life. How can we know we have eternal life if salvation isn't secure?

If we can lose our salvation, then it's certainly possible to keep it. This makes it dependent on our merits, which flies in the face of Scripture teaching that salvation is the gift of God. If I have to work to keep it, it's not a gift anymore, is it?