Can a TRUE believer turn away from the faith?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

A man goes to prison for life, being justly condemned and sentenced by a judge for a specific crime. Can such an individual ‘merit’ a pardon by the performance of good works while in prison? Can such a criminal perform good works to such a degree that the governor is forced to grant this man a pardon based merely on the ‘merit’ of the performance of such good works? Absolutely not. You cannot then consider any formed intents or actions on th epart of the prisoner as the grounds of his pardon, nor could you say that he in any way could ‘merit’ a pardon. IF he is granted a pardon it cannot be said that in any sense his pardon was ‘for the sake of’ anything the prisoner had done or could do.

If the governor so pleases, can he pardon such a criminal? Of course he can. Still, there is something the criminal MUST do, there is an attitude that MUST be reflected by the criminal to receive a pardon IF the governor is indeed fair and just.

If the prisoner is to receive a pardon it still can be said that there must be attitudes that are tied inseparably to intents of the heart, this very initial intent being none other than a ‘work’ in one sense of the word being something the prisoner must do. The governor MUST witness from the criminal a repentant attitude and a change of heart towards his former criminal behavior if the governor is even to consider such a pardon for the criminal. Here we see that the intents and actions of the prisoner indeed do play a part in a pardon, though again, not in the sense of 'that for the sake of.' The sense that the intents and works of the prisoner are involved in a pardon can only be seen in the sense of 'not without which,' not 'that for the sake of.' Nothing the prisoner can or will do can merit a pardon, but just the same neither will he receive a pardon without repentance and an assurance of future behavior is garnered.

What kind of governor would pardon a criminal from prison who had not exhibited true remorse for his crimes? Would not the governor have to be satisfied in his or her mind that IF they pardoned such a criminal that they would not return to commit the same crime or one of like heinous behavior upon society again and that such a criminal possessed and exhibited a true change of heart and attitude towards their former behavior? There are indeed certain conditions that the criminal must meet, works that such a one must of necessity do in order to have the opportunity for a pardon if such an opportunity is offered. These works on the part of the prisoner are again, in no way meritorious in nature, and in no way force the governor to grant such a one a pardon on the account of any or all of their works. Just the same, there are definite conditions or works one must do in order for the governor to consider the pardon. These works are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’

It can properly be stated that one is not pardoned due to any works (in one sense of the word ‘works’) in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ of the prisoner, but just the same it can be said ‘without works’ (in another sense of the word, that being in the sense of ‘not without which’) one will never see the opportunity to receive a pardon.

Can you see how that works can be thought of as necessary for a pardon, or in the sense of “not without which,” yet at the same time no amount of works can be thought of as “that for the sake of” or forcing the governor to pardon the criminal on the account of works performed by the criminal?

Such I believe is the case in our salvation. We indeed will be judged by our works, but our works are not the grounds of our salvation. There is no amount of works that can coerce God into granting us a pardon, but just the same no man will be found in Him without works consistent with their faith. Nothing we do is meritorious, nor can anything we do be seen of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ our salvation. Nothing but the blood of Christ can atone for a single sin. Just the same, God does command us to repent and be obedient to the end, bearing fruits of righteousness and holiness, ‘without which’ no man shall see the Lord.

 

[Revmitchell]

Give a few versus that you feel support your view.:type:

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ready to be revealed when?

 

[DHK]

Such I believe is the case in our salvation.

A true believer will never end up in an unpardonable prison.
A true believer has all of his sins pardoned already.
A true believer does not have to work to be pardoned.
A true believer was pardoned at salvation, and never has to worry about it again. There is no possibility of him ever entering into a prison of any kind. He is pardoned forever.
"If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The key to understanding lies realizing that our salvation is viewed from two, not one, perspectives. God, from His Omniscience, and we by faith. God saying something via His Omnipotence as a general statement concerning those He sees as proper recipients, is not synonymous with me appropriating myself as a recipient in an absolute sense of those provisions. It is impossible for man in this present world, hemmed in by faith, to say with the same absolute certainty that God sees the beginning from the end via, that he knows ‘absolutely’ of his final home. Hence the clear admonitions found in many place to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith, and to remain faithful unto the end in obedience and holiness, without which no man, shall see the Lord.

It is a false and dangerous notion to assume that sins subsequent to initial salvation are automatically under the blood and as such forgiven. “Unless ye repent ye shall all likewise perish.”

Such a concept is simply foreign to Scripture, both Old and New Testaments, and reason. Note carefully the sins that are covered . “Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;”

 

[Revmitchell]

A true believer will never end up in an unpardonable prison.
A true believer has all of his sins pardoned already.
A true believer does not have to work to be pardoned.
A true believer was pardoned at salvation, and never has to worry about it again. There is no possibility of him ever entering into a prison of any kind. He is pardoned forever.
"If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed."

Thats right/ :thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

The key to understanding lies realizing that our salvation is viewed from two, not one, perspectives.

No it isn't. It is viewed from only one perspective and that is God's. It is God's perspective that counts and that is all. That is why a thorough knowledge of God's Word is so important. Without it we are lost. My two cents worth are nothing in his sight. It is His perspective that counts, not mine.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

First, as taught by God to man in the OT. “Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Then as taught by God to man in the NT: 1Co 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Heavenly Pilgrim you said understanding lies? Your pride is a sin too so how you gonna get outta that jam??

 

[ccrobinson]

It is a false and dangerous notion to assume that sins subsequent to initial salvation are automatically under the blood and as such forgiven.

So, the only sins that are forgiven at the moment of salvation are the sins that were committed prior to being saved? If you're right, then please explain Colossians 2:13-14.

Colossians 2:13-14:

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Here, the Bible says that all trespasses are forgiven. All only means past sins? I don't see that qualification in the text.

We indeed will be judged by our works, but our works are not the grounds of our salvation. There is no amount of works that can coerce God into granting us a pardon, but just the same no man will be found in Him without works consistent with their faith. Nothing we do is meritorious, nor can anything we do be seen of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ our salvation.

Works aren't the grounds of our salvation, but, according to you, works are the grounds to keep our salvation. If works were the grounds to keep our salvation, it would mean that salvation isn't a gift and it would mean that Romans 6:23 in a lie.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Revmitchell]

The key to understanding lies realizing that our salvation is viewed from two, not one, perspectives. God, from His Omniscience, and we by faith. God saying something via His Omnipotence as a general statement concerning those He sees as proper recipients, is not synonymous with me appropriating myself as a recipient in an absolute sense of those provisions. It is impossible for man in this present world, hemmed in by faith, to say with the same absolute certainty that God sees the beginning from the end via, that he knows ‘absolutely’ of his final home. Hence the clear admonitions found in many place to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith, and to remain faithful unto the end in obedience and holiness, without which no man, shall see the Lord.

It is a false and dangerous notion to assume that sins subsequent to initial salvation are automatically under the blood and as such forgiven. “Unless ye repent ye shall all likewise perish.”

Such a concept is simply foreign to Scripture, both Old and New Testaments, and reason. Note carefully the sins that are covered . “Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;”

You need to spend some time under teaching before displaying your arrogant attitude and heresy.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ready to be revealed when?

 

[Fignar]

What about those scriptures that plainly tell you that you can be ripped from the vine and thrown into the fire? Doesn't sound like you are always assured salvation. Sounds very much like you can lose your salvation. I guess one could argue that a TRUE believer would never do such a thing. Doesn't hold up in my mind.

Gal. 5: 4 You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Paul was writing to believers there.

Heb. 6: 4 "For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the Holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him in contempt"

Sounds like he is speaking of people that were firm believers and even were graced.

John. 15: 1-6 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit., and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned"

So, people once a part of Christ, are now thrown into a fire because they are no longer part of the vine.

 

[Jedi Knight]

:type:What does Eternal Life mean?

 

[Fignar]

:type:What does Eternal Life mean?

Are you asking me? If so, what about a response to my post first? The scriptures that I listed?

I don't mind answering of course.

 

[Revmitchell]

What about those scriptures that plainly tell you that you can be ripped from the vine and thrown into the fire? Doesn't sound like you are always assured salvation. Sounds very much like you can lose your salvation. I guess one could argue that a TRUE believer would never do such a thing. Doesn't hold up in my mind.

You are assuming that the branched being thrown into the fire were saved folks. But He was speaking to Jews which were the branches and not all of them were saved.

Paul was writing to believers there.

You need to discover what Paul meant by falling from grace. It was not loss of salvation.

Sounds like he is speaking of people that were firm believers and even were graced.

To you it does but it isn't

So, people once a part of Christ, are now thrown into a fire because they are no longer part of the vine.

No. The branches were Israel not the church of which were called of God as a nation and not all of that nation was saved.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Fignar, excellent post.:thumbsup: I for one desire to heed those warnings by taking them to heart, fully realizing that any one of 'could' let slip that which we hold now by faith, making shipwreck of our faith. Let it not be named once among us!

 

[Fignar]

Revmitchell

You are assuming that the branched being thrown into the fire were saved folks. But He was speaking to Jews which were the branches and not all of them were saved.





You need to discover what Paul meant by falling from grace. It was not loss of salvation.






To you it does but it isn't





No. The branches were Israel not the church of which were called of God as a nation and not all of that nation was saved.

You are saying that those already a grafted to the vine, and spoken of by Christ, were only the Jews? That this scripture doesn't apply to us all? Please show me where, in scripture, it says that this only applies to the Jews.

Please, by all means enlighten me. If those that Paul was talking to/about, were not saved already, then show me where it says such in scripture.

Also, please let me know exactly what Paul meant by falling from grace. Tell it to me in scripture please.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

RM, who is the 'thee' spoken to?

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

RM: What does the 'tree,' and the 'grafting into that tree' spoken of signify?

 

[Fignar]

Fignar, excellent post.:thumbsup: I for one desire to heed those warnings by taking them to heart, fully realizing that any one of 'could' let slip that which we hold now by faith, making shipwreck of our faith. Let it not be named once among us!

Thanks, and I agree!