Eternal Union of Christ and His Children

[Dr. Walter]

The metaphor of "head" does not refer to any kind of SPIRITUAL UNION but rather to the position of AUTHORITY just as the husband is the "head" of the wife. The husband's head is not attached to the wife's physical body. He is simply in the POSITION of AUTHORITY over the wife.

The Son of God before the world began and after the world began was in the position of AUTHORITY over every male human being (1 Cor. 11:3) just as the Father before the world began was the "head" of Christ (1 Cor. 11:3) or in the POSITION OF AUTHORITY over the Son.

BTW The Son of God was the "head" of Adam and every male born from Adam (1 Cor. 11:3) but that does not mean he was in spiritual union with every male born from Adam!!!! However, your rediculous interpretation would demand that the Son of God was in spiritual union with every male born of Adam:

1 Cor. 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

The basis for this statement is the order in creation (vv. 7-9) in the position given Adam over Eve. Hence, this is based upon creation of mankind rather than salvation or church membership in any kind of church.

Christ was the Head of His Church in the Beginning Col 1:15-18

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Who is the beginning is here qualifying Christ as the Head of His Body the Church.

And as the Head of the Church vs 17 says He is before all Things. So the Head of the Church He is before all Things, and So, His Body with Him is before all Things as well.

As such Grace was given the members of His body before the world began. 2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This could not be True if #1. Christ did not exist before the world began and #2 If there was not a Real Union with Him and His Body before the world began..

 

[savedbymercy]

convicted

For SBG's posts to be correct, then Jesus had no reason to die for us.

Thats not True, because They were in Union with Christ as the lamb slain from the foundation. All the Justification and security the elect had before the world began, was premised on Christ coming into the world and dying on the Cross, however, the benefits of that were given far ahead of time.

then they were never lost at any point in their lives

Not True again. The elect were lost in that because of sin they were alienated from the Life of God, and had gone about doing their own thing as per Isa 53:

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

To be in our own away is to be Lost. The Prodigal Son is Illustration of that. When he was returned to his Father, it is said that what ? Lk 1524

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

You must dont understand what being lost is, bibblically for the elect..

 

[convicted1]

convicted



Thats not True, because They were in Union with Christ as the lamb slain from the foundation. All the Justification and security the elect had before the world began, was premised on Christ coming into the world and dying on the Cross, however, the benefits of that were given far ahead of time.

I don't follow your line of reasoning here, Brother. Jesus died for sinners, correct? If He died for sinners, then they were/are lost, correct? Now, one can not and will not be in Christ while they are a condemned sinner, correct? So, then can they be in Christ the whole time, while Jesus still had to die for sinners? Please elaborate further. Thanks in advance.

 

[convicted1]

convicted



Thats not True, because They were in Union with Christ as the lamb slain from the foundation. All the Justification and security the elect had before the world began, was premised on Christ coming into the world and dying on the Cross, however, the benefits of that were given far ahead of time.



Not True again. The elect were lost in that because of sin they were alienated from the Life of God, and had gone about doing their own thing as per Isa 53:

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

To be in our own away is to be Lost. The Prodigal Son is Illustration of that. When he was returned to his Father, it is said that what ? Lk 1524

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

You must dont understand what being lost is, bibblically for the elect..

Well, Brother SBG, Jesus came to die for sinners. He came to seek and save that which was lost. When He died, He took every sin upon Him, and nailed it with Him on the cross. A condemned sinner is never in Christ while he is in that condemned state. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. That's why when we are saved, we are clothed in Jesus' righteousness when He cleanses us with His blood. It is here, that we are placed in Christ.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Well, Brother SBG, Jesus came to die for sinners. He came to seek and save that which was lost. When He died, He took every sin upon Him, and nailed it with Him on the cross. A condemned sinner is never in Christ while he is in that condemned state. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. That's why when we are saved, we are clothed in Jesus' righteousness when He cleanses us with His blood. It is here, that we are placed in Christ.

SBG believes that simply because according to God's eternal purpose we were chosen "in Christ" before the world began then we we actually existed in spiritual union with Christ before the world began and therefore when we came into this world we never were under condemnation because we were justified "in Christ" by eternal purpose before the world began.

He confuses God's PURPOSED THOUGHT with reality. He actually believes the UNFULFILLED purposed thoughts of God are reality and if he were consistent he would have to beleive that your unfulfilled but purposed thoughts are reality as well. The man is confused as he cannot distinguish between NON-EXISTENT but PURPOSED reality and EXISTENT and FULFILLED reality.

 

[savedbymercy]

con

Well, Brother SBG, Jesus came to die for sinners.

Thats True, and by nature the elect are sinners..

He came to seek and save that which was lost

Thats True, and all the elect were Lost in Adam

and they were all saved in Christ their Head.

When He died, He took every sin upon Him,

The sins of God's People, be more specific, scripture is Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The Sheep Jn 10:15

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

A condemned sinner is never in Christ while he is in that condemned state.

I agree, however the elect are sinners by nature who are not in a condemned state. Even while they are enemies, they have been reconciled to God by the Death of His Son Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That's why when we are saved, we are clothed in Jesus' righteousness when He cleanses us with His blood.

In that regards, the elect have always been saved, clothed in Christ Righteousness and washed by His Blood. He Christ sat down at the right Hand of God, that had been accomplished which purified the elect from their sins Heb 1:3

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

There is not a time in the history of the elect, that God did not view them in Christ, blood washed and clothed in His Righteousness, even when they in themselves are filthy..

 

[Dr. Walter]

con



Thats True, and by nature the elect are sinners..



Thats True, and all the elect were Lost in Adam

and they were all saved in Christ their Head.



The sins of God's People, be more specific, scripture is Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The Sheep Jn 10:15

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.



I agree, however the elect are sinners by nature who are not in a condemned state. Even while they are enemies, they have been reconciled to God by the Death of His Son Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.



In that regards, the elect have always been saved, clothed in Christ Righteousness and washed by His Blood. He Christ sat down at the right Hand of God, that had been accomplished which purified the elect from their sins Heb 1:3

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

There is not a time in the history of the elect, that God did not view them in Christ, blood washed and clothed in His Righteousness, even when they in themselves are filthy..

SBG will admit all the elect were "in Adam" physically and were born of Adam and thus all were sinners "in Adam" by nature. However, if they were sinners "in Adam" by nature through physical birth then they were also CONDEMNED "in Adam" by nature and children of wrath even as others were "in Adam" by nature (Eph. 2:2-3).

Hence, there was no actual salvation provided or applied before the world began just as there was no actual existence of the elect at all before THEIR CREATION IN ADAM but they existed only as MERE THOUGHT in God's purpose which would need God's POWER to become reality thorugh CREATION or else they would not have been born sinners in Adam at all but would have been born redeemed, reconciled, regenerated and glorified.

 

[Dr. Walter]

SBG's doctrine and the Mormon doctrine of preexistent spirit children have more in common with each other than either has with God's Word.

SBG actually believes the elect REALISTICALLY EXISTED before they were actually created by God. He believes that the PURPOSED THOUGHTS of God are more real than the FULFILLED THOUGHTS of God through the CREATIVE POWER of God.

SBG quotes Hebrews 11:1 to prove faith is substance and therefore God's THOUGHTS are real existent substance. However, he fails to consider the remainder of Hebrews 11:1 where faith is the substance of things "HOPED" for and hope is unnecessary where there is substantive REALITY!

Every text he abuses to insert his HUMAN LOGIC into the text to assert these things when that text can more easily and logically be understood to mean that "in Christ" in eternity past simply had to do with unfulfilled but purposed redemption provided by Christ that became fulfilled only after creation in time and space.

Take a look at a blue print of house before the house is built in time and space. The blue print shows us what is In the mind of the archetect and we can see in the blue print every detail and that house exists only as a THOUGHT and IDEA and the blue print presents it as a PLAN and PURPOSE but without any other kind of existence UNTIL POWER is applied in time and space to FULFIL the plan.

The same is true with prophecy. Prophecy predicts God's purpose but until it is fufilled in time and space it is mere predictive purpose without real existence in this world.

SBG confuses THOUGHT with MATTER and ETERNITY with TIME and PURPOSE with FULFILLMENT.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

SBG will admit all the elect were "in Adam" physically and were born of Adam

Yes, however I confess that they were in Christ before that. They were given Grace in Christ, when ? Before the world began ! 2 Tim 1:9


9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Its ironic and contradictory that you seem to admit that the elect had a union with Adam in the beginning in order for them to have sinned in him, and yet deny and gainsay that they had a previous Union in Christ, having been chosen in Him Eph 1:4 before the foundation. You don't believe Christ existed before the world began is one of your problems.

When the Elect did fall in Adam, they had already been Given Grace in Christ before the world began 2 Tim 1:9. They are Justified by Grace Titus 3:7

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

That Grace they are Justified by, is the same Grace given them in Christ before the world began..So the Fall in Adam, made them sinful, but not condemned, for Grace supersedes sin..

The condemnation that the elect incurred because of their sin in Adam, was laid to Christ's charge. Rom 4:8

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

This blessedness comes from Election and Eternal Union in Christ..

SBG actually believes the elect REALISTICALLY EXISTED before they were actually created by God.

Yes, to God they did. Just like to God they realistically existed in Union with Adam when he sinned before they were born physically. Is that a mormon doctrine also ?

Also, to God, Levi realistically exsited in the Loins of Abraham, when he payed tithes to melchizadek Heb 7:9-10

9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Thats why God says the elect sinned in Adam, because they were in His Loins by the Divine Purpose !

The elect seed was in the spritual loins of their Redemptive Father from Everlasting Isa 9:6

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Yes, however I confess that they were in Christ before that. They were given Grace in Christ, when ? Before the world began ! 2 Tim 1:9


9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Note the explanation - "according to his own purpose" not according to any kind of substantive existence. They were not spiritually existent and spiritually inseparable from the nature of God the Son - that is mormon kind of doctrine! God had a plan before the world began and that plan involved Christ making provision for the elect - thus in that sense - we were "in Christ" or in the plan God made concerning Christ for the elect.

Its ironic and contradictory that you seem to admit that the elect had a union with Adam in the beginning in order for them to have sinned in him, and yet deny and gainsay that they had a previous Union in Christ, having been chosen in Him Eph 1:4 before the foundation. You don't believe Christ existed before the world began is one of your problems.

No, it is not, because that union was due to CREATION at a specific point in time and that is precisely what you are ignoring concerning being "in Christ" (Eph. 2:10) by creation at a specific point in time.

When the Elect did fall in Adam, they had already been Given Grace in Christ before the world began 2 Tim 1:9. They are Justified by Grace Titus 3:7

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You shelf your brain in this discussion. They had not been given grace in regard to thier existing person but given grace IN THE PLAN OF GOD just as a house is given rooms in the blue print of the Archetech - not because these rooms have any actual existence.

That Grace they are Justified by, is the same Grace given them in Christ before the world began..So the Fall in Adam, made them sinful, but not condemned, for Grace supersedes sin..

It is pure blindness to claim the elect "fell" in Adam and "sinned" in Adam but were not "condemned" in Adam when the Bible explicitly states that all men were condemned "in Adam"

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

The condemnation that the elect incurred because of their sin in Adam, was laid to Christ's charge. Rom 4:8

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

This blessedness comes from Election and Eternal Union in Christ.

Hence, you admit they "incurred" condemnation! Good confession. Certainly it was laid to Christ's charge in PURPOSE before the world began, in PROVISION with Christ on the cross but not in APPLICATION or POSITION until faith in the gospel (Rom. 5:1).

What you don't get is there is NO KIND OF APPLICATION to the PERSON of the elect before the world, in the provision, until they were separated by the Spirit of God ("sanctified by the Spirit") and until "belief of the truth" (2 Thes. 2:13).

Before being personally set apart by the Spirit, before belief in the truth, they were "EVEN AS OTHERS" and children of wrath under condemnation in unbelief in regard to their actual PERSON.

Yes, to God they did. Just like to God they realistically existed in Union with Adam when he sinned before they were born physically. Is that a mormon doctrine also ?

Yes, that is mormon like doctrine because to God they did not actually exist because if they did then He had no need to CREATE anything and anyone because they already existed to God. Such is your absolute foolish position.

Also, to God, Levi realistically exsited in the Loins of Abraham, when he payed tithes to melchizadek Heb 7:9-10

9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Another foolish analogy. Why?

1. Creation in Adam preceded seminal seed in Abraham and so it does "in Christ" - Eph. 2:10

2. Physical cannot be compared to Spiritual as the Spirit has no reproductive system that contains "seed" seminally or otherwise.

3. No text demands this kind of foolish thinking and no text says any such thing. - it is all produced by your HUMAN LOGIC

4. The texts that you FORCE to teach this by HUMAN LOGIC, not by what they say or mean are explained by other scriptures simply to mean that the elect were justified as much as glorifed "in Christ" only by PURPOSEFUL DESIGN.

5. If your LOGICAL CONCLUSION were correct then we were equally never unregenerated because we were "called" in Christ before the world began equally as justified.

6. If your LOGICAL CONCLUSION were correct then we were equally never unglorified because we were "glorified" in Christ before the world began equally as justified.

7. Your logic is foolish and unbiblical and forced upon the scriptures and blasphemeous as it demands that the elect are God's children due to derivation from pre-incarnate divine NATURE and thus god's just as Mormon's teach.

The elect seed was in the spritual loins of their Redemptive Father from Everlasting Isa 9:6

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Hebrew text simply asserts that this Son which was given was the "father of eternity" or the Creator of all things not that he was a real "Father" in the sense of Mormonism producing other god's. That is precisely what you are teaching the Mormon doctrine of polytheism - many God's reproduced from a previous existing God.

 

[1 Timothy 3:3-9]

Can you understand what I said???? I doubt it. You are spiritually blind, spiritually deaf to common sense truth on this subject.

I am utterly surprised that a professing Christian and Pastor can allow such things to be spoken from his own lips. I am more surprised that this board allows him to speak this way. Anyone lost or not coming to read this trash talk would never return here.
Please be an example and charitable when responding to others on this forum and in real life. If you can talk this way to others on the internet I can only guess how you speak to those of your own family and congregation. "That don't agree with you or do what you want."

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

No, it is not, because that union was due to CREATION at a specific point in time and that is precisely what you are ignoring concerning being "in Christ" (Eph. 2:10) by creation at a specific point in time.

In case you did not know it, the Lord Jesus Christ in His Mediatorial Manhood was begotten before the world began. Why do you think He is called the only Begotten of the Father ? Jn 1:14

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When Christ was begotten, His seed was in given in Him, thats one of the reasons why Heb 2:11 states this :

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Please note: The Lord Jesus Christ was only begotten of God before the world began in His Media oral Manhood [1 Tim 2:5] as the Head and Life of His Church, however, in His Deity, He is Unbegotten and underived and is as Eternal and self existing as the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

What you don't get is there is NO KIND OF APPLICATION to the PERSON of the elect before the world

Justification is a Legal term, it does not have to be applied for it to be True. If one is in prison awaiting execution, and unknown to him, The Judge dismissed the sentence, and orders the prisoner to be set free, well the Judges verdict has been made before the prisoner hears about the good news of it. The prisoners justification was True in the Mind of the Judge before that verdict was made known to the prisoner. So the Justification was not applied to the prisoner until later when he found out about it, but the Judge knew before He did.

Application of Justification is not when one is Justified.

Then, another thing you fail to realize is that, The sins of the elect were never laid to their charge legally but to Christ's charge as He was their Surety, and that from everlasting. There is no application to them needed for that, God Just did not charge them with their legal condemnation and charged it to Christ. The Non Imputation of sin is in itself Justification.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Bill Wald...

I suppose my primary, maybe only gripe against Christian theology is the claim that Jesus/God loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved while claiming the null case is every person goes to hell. What kind of a god is that? A god that can't get what he wants in even 51% of the cases?

We blame human teachers for kids who fail but God gets a free pass for the vast majority whom you all say go to Hell?

Where do you get the idea that its Gods fault that some people choose to reject Christ???

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Justification is a Legal term, it does not have to be applied for it to be True. If one is in prison awaiting execution, and unknown to him, The Judge dismissed the sentence, and orders the prisoner to be set free, well the Judges verdict has been made before the prisoner hears about the good news of it. The prisoners justification was True in the Mind of the Judge before that verdict was made known to the prisoner. So the Justification was not applied to the prisoner until later when he found out about it, but the Judge knew before He did.

Application of Justification is not when one is Justified.

Then, another thing you fail to realize is that, The sins of the elect were never laid to their charge legally but to Christ's charge as He was their Surety, and that from everlasting. There is no application to them needed for that, God Just did not charge them with their legal condemnation and charged it to Christ. The Non Imputation of sin is in itself Justification.

"called" and "glorified" are not legal terms and yet both are inseparably linked to "justified" in Romans 8:30 in regard to Gods' eternal purpose. You cannot have one without the other. Please attempt to explain how the elect were NEVER unglorified and NEVER unregenerated and then you will be consistent with your argument that the elect were eternally justified and thus NEVER under condemnation.

 

[1 Timothy 3:3-9]

"called" and "glorified" are not legal terms and yet both are inseparably linked to "justified" in Romans 8:30 in regard to Gods' eternal purpose. You cannot have one without the other. Please attempt to explain how the elect were NEVER unglorified and NEVER unregenerated and then you will be consistent with your argument that the elect were eternally justified and thus NEVER under condemnation.

Much better Pastor Mark! See how easy it is!:thumbsup:

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

"

called" and "glorified" are not legal terms and yet both are inseparably linked to "justified"

The Justified elect, are called in time by the Gospel, and they are experimentally Glorified in the end.

Now in God's Mind, all has Taken Place already. God is not bound by time.

As far as God was concerned, Jeremiah was called to be a Prophet to the Nations, before Jeremiah received the calling in time. Jeremiah 1 :5

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Now, in the Eternal Purpose of God, the Elect are Glorified already. You belittle God's Eternal Mind, and think its bound by time events like ours, thats Blasphemy..Isa 55:9

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And another thing, The Elect never had their sins Laid to their Charge, that in itself is Justification before God, For all their legal guilt they would incur in Adam, was not imputed to them, but to their Surety, Christ..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw

"

The Justified elect, are called in time by the Gospel, and they are experimentally Glorified in the end.

However, the problem you are overlooking is that they are EQUALLY contained in the eternal purpose of God with "justified" and therefore you have cannot claim the elect were NEVER AT ANY TIME UNDER CONDEMNATION because they were justified "in Christ" according to God's eternal purpose unless you also claim they were eternal "called" and "glorified" as these are inseparable from "justified" in Romans 8:30 and in the eternal purpose of God.

If the latter two have no REALISTIC EXISTENCE to the elect in eternity past neither does "justified" and vica versa.

 

[savedbymercy]

However, the problem you are overlooking is that they are EQUALLY contained in the eternal purpose of God with "justified" and therefore you have cannot claim the elect were NEVER AT ANY TIME UNDER CONDEMNATION because they were justified "in Christ" according to God's eternal purpose unless you also claim they were eternal "called" and "glorified" as these are inseparable from "justified" in Romans 8:30 and in the eternal purpose of God.

If the latter two have no REALISTIC EXISTENCE to the elect in eternity past neither does "justified" and vica versa.

The Elect never in God's Mind, and Purpose, never was[legally] charged personally with Sin, He charged it to Christ account as their Surety.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Elect never in God's Mind, and Purpose, never was[legally] charged personally with Sin, He charged it to Christ account as their Surety.

Again, you are ignoring the relationship between "justifed" and "called" and "glorified" in regard to "them" in Romans 8:30 and the fact that this is GOD's VIEW from His eternal purpose (v. 28). You cannot pick and choose but that is exactly what you are doing in order to justify your theory!