history lesson

[Ed Edwards]

"tribulations" in nKJV:

1Sa 10:19 (nKJV):
But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, 'No, set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans."

3,000 years before the Tribulation Period, has to be:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 14:22 (nKJV):
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."

The Kingdom of God is with us, not all are persecuted,
must be the most likly:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 20:23 (nKJV):
except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely: Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 6:4 (nKJV):
But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Eph 3:13 (nKJV):
Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Most likely: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

2Th 1:4 (nKJV):
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Heb 10:33 (nKJV):
partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


"tribulation" in nKJV:

1Sa 26:24 (nKJV):
And indeed, as your life was valued much this day in my eyes, so let my life be valued much in the eyes of the Lord, and let Him deliver me out of all tribulation."

1. tribulation due to the human condition>
surley not 3,000+ years before futurists Trib Period
or 1,000+ years before before a-mill Trib Period

Mt 13:21 (nKJV):
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Most likely:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Mt 24:9 (nKJV):
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

Got to be:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Mt 24:21 (nKJV):
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This follows the AOD, it is: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist


Mt 24:29 (nKJV):
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

After 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist, the Lord will come in power and glory to
defeat the Antichrist.

Mr 4:17 (nKJV):
and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.

Most likely: 2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom, which is persecution

Mr 13:19 (nKJV):
For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

This is a paralell Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) passage
refering to: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Mr 13:24 (nKJV):
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

MOD, again: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Joh 16:33 (nKJV):
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

One of these: 1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
but not: 4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Ro 2:9 (nKJV):
tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely, 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happen to everybody

Ro 8:35 (nKJV):
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Could be any of the first three

Ro 12:12 (nKJV):
rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

Most likely,m 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happens to everybody

2Co 1:4 (nKJV):
who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

Most likely is the most common: 1. tribulation due to the human condition
(note this shows that tribulation is the opposite of 'comfort'.

2Co 7:4 (nKJV):
Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul was NOT in the tribulation periods.

1Th 3:4 (nKJV):
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

Paul suffered from the three conditions:
Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods:



2Th 1:6 (nKJV):
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Why should God wait until the Tribulation Periods
to "repay"? Probably: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 1:9 (nKJV):
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods

Re 2:9 (nKJV):
I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


Re 2:10 (nKJV):
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Likely: Could be any of the first three:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Re 2:22 (nKJV):
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Likely 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 7:14 (nKJV):
And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist.
These avoid great tribulation by being jerked out
of the world when Jesus comes to get His own.

 

[BobRyan]

Ed
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millennial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

Indeed we see this in Matt 24 called "The great tribulation".

We see it in Daniel 7 as 1260 years of persecution of the saints.

We see it in Rev 12 as 1260 years of persecution

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan said - that we should note

2. The "great tribulation" of Matt 24 is never
called "the day of God's wrath" no not in all of scripture.//

This is important if one wants to believe that Matt 24's great tribulation IS to be called the "day of God's Wrath" AND they want a Bible text that shows that to be true.

Ed said
The Bible doesn't need to say that.

Good thing - because it doesn't.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Correction there is no actual mention of Daniel's 70 week prophecy in Rev 6 nor any reference to any part of it in Rev 6.

This could be another one of those cases where you would say "the Bible does not need to say that" and I would once again that this is a good thing - because it doesn't.

Interestingly - my view does depend on the Bible not mentioning that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

What part of "ad hominem is not a funny kinda proof of something" is not getting through here GE?

I am waiting for you to make an actual point. When you jump into a dialoge between me and someone else - you have to make a point -- see? That is how it works. Simply jumping in with a load of ad hominem nonsense is pointless.

GE

Pointless? My reaction to your words, "... the text that actually mentions the 1000 years between first and 2nd resurrections is NOT future to john is NOT a real 1000 years and is NOT real but spiritual."

The text actually says: "Thousand Years This The First Resurrection" - which implies as firm as being 'mentioned', 'the 1000 years', IS, The First Resurrection", is 'real', and, 'spiritual' and is, 'future to John', but present and not 'future to' the Coming of Christ. 'The text' says, that is, imply or mention, in a word, no, "2nd resurrection".

Of course such an interruption will be most annoying to two souls who in the comfort of their vanity rant on.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Rev 6:15-17 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the kings of the earth, and the great men,
and the rich men, and the chiefe captaines,
and the mighty men, and euery bondman,
and euery free man, hid themselues in the dennes,
and in the rockes of the mountaines,
16 And said to the mountaines and rockes,
Fall on vs, and hide vs from the face of him
that sitteth on the throne, and from
the wrath of the Lambe:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come,
and who shall be able to stand?

This speaks of the START of the Tribulation Period,
not the whole expanse.

//Correction there is no actual mention
of Daniel's 70 week prophecy in Rev 6
nor any reference to any part of it in Rev 6.//

Correct, there is no actual mention
of 'Daniel's 70th week' here. But this
scripture does NOT discuss Daniel's
70th week, only the start of it.

Here is about the 70th week of Daniel:
Dan 9:26-27 (KJV1611 Edition):
And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah
be cut off, but not for himselfe, and
the people of the Prince that shall come,
shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie,
and the ende thereof shall be with a flood,
and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.
27 And hee shall confirme the couenant
with many for one weeke: and in the midst
of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and
for the ouerspreading of abominations
hee shall make it desolate,
euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

(note there is 'there is no actual mention
of Daniel's 70 week' here -- but this is talking about
the what comes after the 1-7th weeks & the 62
weeks (69 for those keeping track) -- in other
words - it is talking about the 70th week of
Daniel BUT 'there is no actual mention
of Daniel's 70 week'.)

Our own Blessed Lord & Savior, Messiah Jesus
said on Mount Olivet:

Mat 24:15-22 (KJV1611 Edition):
When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
(see Daniel 9:27) spoken of by Daniel the Prophet,
stand in the holy place, (who so readeth, let him vnderstand.)
16 Then let them which be in Iudea, flee into the mountaines.
17 Let him which is on the house top,
not come downe, to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field,
returne backe to take his clothes.
19 And wòe vnto them that are with child,
and to them that giue sucke in those dayes.
20 But pray yee that your flight
bee not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning
of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake,
those dayes shall be shortned.

Ah, the GREAT TRIBULATION starts in the
middle of the (unamed here) 70th Week of Daniel
marked by the AoD = Abomination of Desolation.

No my friend, Revelation 6:15-17 Has
DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK written all over it.
This says plainly that what starts then
is "wrath of the Lambe" (you can call it
the Wrath of Christ, if you want to -- but the
scripture doesn't say 'Wrath of Christ' but
"wrath of the Lambe". Remember the hare
is an unclean animal - please don't split hares
for the purpose of sacrifice - that is an
abomination before God.)

 

[BobRyan]

Our own Blessed Lord & Savior, Messiah Jesus
said on Mount Olivet:

Mat 24:15-22 (KJV1611 Edition):
When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
(see Daniel 9:27) spoken of by Daniel the Prophet,
stand in the holy place, (who so readeth, let him vnderstand.)
16 Then let them which be in Iudea, flee into the mountaines.
17 Let him which is on the house top,
not come downe, to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field,
returne backe to take his clothes.

That is Jerusalem destroyed - 70Ad shortly after the time of the Messiah.

The time of the Messiah is the subject of the great 70 week (490 year) timeline prophecy of Dan 9.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

No my friend, Revelation 6:15-17 Has
DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK written all over it.
This says plainly that what starts then
is "wrath of the Lambe" (you can call it
the Wrath of Christ, if you want to -- but the
scripture doesn't say 'Wrath of Christ' but
"wrath of the Lambe". Remember the hare
is an unclean animal - please don't split hares
for the purpose of sacrifice - that is an
abomination before God.)

Daniel's 70th week makes no mention of the wrath of God.

Rev 6 makes not mention of the Messianic actions predicted in Daniel's 70 week prophecy.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

// Daniel's 70th week makes no mention of the wrath of God.//


Wrong, assumption breath :tonofbricks:


Daniel 9:26-277 (HCSB = Christian Standard
Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

After those 62 weeks
the Messiah will be cut off
and will have nothing.
The people of the coming prince
will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end will come with a flood,
and until the end there will be war;
desolations are decreed.
27. He will make a firm covenant
with many for one week,
but in the middle of the week
he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering.
And the abomination of desolation
will be on a wing of the temple
until the decreed destruction
is poured out on the desolator.

Here are the words about the Messiah:
// After those 62 weeks
the Messiah will be cut off
and will have nothing. //

The rest of Daniel 9:26-27 is about
SOMEBODY ELSE other than Messiah
the Prince.

This statement talks about
a Prince who will come:

// The people of the coming prince
will destroy the city and the sanctuary. //

And this is what the END shall be like: // The end will come with a flood,
and until the end there will be war;
desolations are decreed. //

Sounds pretty wrath-like to me.
The question then is just:
Who is making the wrath?
I think the first ½ (3½-years)
the phony Messiah will be doing the wrath,
the second half (3½-years) will be
the Real Messiah hand delivering the
WRATH OF GOD.

'He' and 'the desolator'
refer to the coming prince
not to Prince Messiah.

// Rev 6 makes not mention of the Messianic actions
predicted in Daniel's 70 week prophecy.//

Yes, you are correct.
For Daniel's 70th week prohecy isn't about
the Messiahg but about the Anti-messiah.
Messiah comes to an end right after the 69th week
and before the 70th week.
There is nothing said in the part about the 'prince who shall come (he)'
about Messianic actions for it speaks about the
Anti-Messiah.

 

[BobRyan]

OK - Daniel 9 it is.

Daniel 9 [/b]

Daniel's Prayer for His People

1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans--
2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.
[/quote]

Daniel 9 starts with a 70 year timeline prophecy – which is in fact a chronological sequence - given by Jeremiah. This timeline prophecy of 70 years – LIKE ALL timeline prophecies in scripture, is contiguous! IF Daniel had the problem of “undefined units of time inserted into the timeline” he could have no predictable use of the timeline as a time “ruler” with a start and end point and a duration that is EXACTLY as specified in the prophecy. Hence we see no “shattering and scattering” of Bible timelines given as chronological sequences – not even the 70 years of Jeremiah!.

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 9
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah – A timeline given as an explicit Chronological Sequence



Dan 9: 24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,

Here in Daniel we find the 70 week prophetic time span of (70 prophetic weeks, 490 literal years). This time span is explicitly quantified by the number 70 (70weeks) just as the other time span of Daniel 9 - the 70 year time span in Dan 9:2 was explicitly quantified by the number 70.

In the remaining verses of Daniel 9 we will see the single time span of 70 weeks detailed into a timeline covering the entire 490 year period.

This prophetic timeline that forms that complete contiguous time span of 70 weeks works exactly as all other Bible time spans with numeric values encompassing the entire span of time. The 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned in Dan 9:2 show a prophetic span of time without gaps. The 400 years of Genesis 15:13 also show a span of time that is reliable and valid for calculating and predicting events in the timeline associated with that span of time.

IF (as some suppose in recent times) a time span could be injected with "undefined gaps of time" - then the Jews might still be in Babylon using the 70 years of Daniel 9:2 infested with gaps. Or the Hebrews might still be enslaved in Egypt using the 400 years of Genesis 15:13 and injecting "undefined gaps of time" into it.

Inserting gaps into time spans that are numerically quantified as we see with the 70 years and the 70 weeks - voids the entire span of time as a reliable source of information and prophecy. IF a builder contracts to build your house in 3 months but then injects "undefined gaps of time" between the 2nd and 3rd month - the entire 3 month contract is made void. IT could be 3 years or 3 decades as long as "gaps of time of undefined duration' are allowed.

IN the same way - inserting such "Gaps of time" would extend out the 7 day timeline of Genesis 1-2:3 (given as a chronological sequence) to any length of time one is inclined to interject. Injecting gaps into quantified time spans is classic eisegesis.

All agree that "for your people" refers to the Jews as the "Holy nation, royal priesthood, chosen by God" - the Hebrew nation church of Israel. The time span is specifically assigned to Israel - literally.

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 9:24 (continued)
Kalah (3615) to finish the transgression, Tamam(8552) to make an end of sin,

Tamam (8552) "end", "finish" "complete", "spent"
Kalah (3615) "finish" (Ezra 1:1) "Fulfill" Gen 15 "complete" - "come to an end"
[/b]


Here Daniel predicts that during this 490 year span of time - they will complete the measure of their sin and guilt.

The sense of Kalay in Dan 9 used in prophecy and tied to a length of time for sin (a time span) is the same as we find it in Genesis 15 -

Gen 15:
13 God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where (17) they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.
14 "But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.
15 "As for you, (20) you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age.
16 "Then in (21) the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet (Kalah)complete."

Just as the Amorites were given a 400 year time span to fill up the measure of their iniquity - so Israel is given 490 years from the time of the decree listed in Daniel 9 to complete their measure of iniquity.

Matt 23:

31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

The measure of guilt was fast filling in the days of Christ - He predicts they will fill it up in that generation

Matt 23
33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Paul declares that they had already filled up their measure of sin and iniquity by the time of his ministry.

1 Thess 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

 

[BobRyan]

quote]Daniel 9:24 (continued)
to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy[/quote]

This 70 week prophetic span of time (490 literal years) would bring in the Messiah and fulfill all righteousness - fulfilling all vision and prophecy pertaining to Israel and the Messiah during this 490 year span of time.

The final atonement for sin - through the Messiah - fhe focus of the nation's festivals and religious services..

1John 2:2 – Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and the sins of the whole world.

To bring in "everlasting righteousness"
Matt 3:15 - Christ "fulfilled all righteousness" when He came.

Romans 3:
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

The completion of all vision and prophecy pertaining to the Messiah and the nation of Israel.
All prophecy and vision pertaining to Israel's Messiah - the Savior of the World

1 Peter 1:
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

=============================================
[
b]Daniel 9:24[/b] and to anoint the most holy place.

During this 490 year span of time the Most Holy place in heaven - the temple built by God "without hands", Christ (the Messiah the Anointed one) would anoint the most holy place.

Hebrews 9:
18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.
19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
20 saying, "" THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.''
21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.

Christ is seen in Hebrews 9 to anoint the most Holy Place and to offer the “one sacrifice” that obsoletes all others. Putting an end to sacrifice and offering. His alone is the only real sacrifice for the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins.

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 9:[/b]
25 "So you are to know and discern that [b]from the issuing of a decree[/b] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be [b]seven weeks and sixty-two weeks[/B]; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
[/quote]

Christ (Hebrew Messiah) – is the “anointed one”. This was fulfilled at His baptism.

And so when Christ begins His ministry He announced that prophetic time had been fulfilled
Mark 1:15 - "The Kingdom of God is at hand – the time is fulfilled"

Acts 10
36 ""The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)
37 you yourselves know [b]the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.[/b]
38 "" You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
39 ""We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.

Christ is the anointed one – anointed by the Holy Spirit.

John 1

32 John testified saying, "" I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
33 ""I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
34 ""I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.''

Matt 3
The Baptism of Jesus

13 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.
14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"
15 But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him.
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, [/b]
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

Here we see the timeline broken down into discrete segments - each following the other. 7 weeks (49 years) assigned to the rebuilding of Jerusalem - followed by 62 weeks making a total of 69 weeks (483 literal years) and the beginning of the mission of the "anointed one" the Messiah.

And so when Christ begins His ministry He announced that prophetic time had been fulfilled


Mark 1:15 - "The Kingdom of God is at hand – the time is fulfilled"

And so begins Christ's 3.5 year ministry in fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy.

So far the exact matching anti-type fulfillment in the NT is far more "explicit" in fulfilling the prophetic components of Daniel 9 - using this explicit and direct approach - than all other proposed solutions. None of them contain the direct references and language for Daniel 9 as we have seen here so far.

John Gill’s commentary on Dan 9:25

it is best therefore to interpret this of a royal edict, the order or commandment of a king of Persia to rebuild Jerusalem; and it seems correct to reckon the number given, either from the seventh, or rather from the twentieth, of Artaxerxes Longimanus before mentioned; and either these reckonings, as Bishop Chandler F3 observes, are sufficient for our purpose, to show the completion of the prophecy in Christ:

``the commencement of the weeks (as he remarks) must be either from the seventh of Artaxerxes, which falls on 457 B.C. or from the twentieth of Artaxerxes; (add to 457 B.C., twenty six years after Christ, which is the number that four hundred and eighty three years, or sixty nine weeks, exceeds four hundred and fifty seven years); and you are brought to the beginning of John the Baptist's preaching up the advent of the Messiah; add seven years or one week to the former, and you come to the thirty third year of A.D. which was the year of Jesus Christ's death[/b] or else compute four hundred and ninety years, the whole seventy weeks, from the seventh of Artaxerxes, by subtracting four hundred and fifty seven years (the space of time between that year and the beginning of A.D.) from four hundred and ninety, and there remains thirty three, the year of our Lord's death. Let the twentieth of Artaxerxes be the date of the seventy weeks, which is 455 B.C. and reckon sixty nine weeks of Chaldean years; seventy Chaldee years being equal to sixty nine Julian; and so four hundred and seventy eight Julian years making four hundred and eighty three Chaldee years, and they end in the thirty third year after Christ, or the passover following F4'';
the several particulars into which these seventy weeks are divided: unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and
two weeks;
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=009&verse=025

 

[BobRyan]

But what happens "after the 483 years" - "after the 69 weeks" - "after the 7 plus 62 weeks" of prophetic time?

Again - using the Explicit language of the text - instead of the suppositions so common today.

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing,

After 7+62 weeks (After the 69 weeks) – comes the 70th week. In that Week the Messiah is cut off. Still many views depend on ignoring this key fact and reading “instead” that “at or near the END of the 69th week the Messiah is cut off”

26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off (NASB)

26"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, (NKJV)

26And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, YLT

26And after the sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,(DARBY)

26And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off (ESV)

Isaiah sees this same crucifixion event.

Isaiah 53
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

Instead of pointing us to an undefined gap of time as the event that follows "AFTER" the 69 weeks - Daniel's prophecy Continues on the SAME timeline - through the 490 years timeline. The 69 weeks takes us TO the advent of the Messiah and then After that 483 year boundary - comes the events of the Messiah in that last week - in the last 7 years in the week that follows the 69th week -- and what follows is the cross.

=============================================================

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, AND the People of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Certainly it is agreed that "After the 69th week" Christ was crucified - in fact He was crucified in the midst of the 70th week which also meant the sacrifices were at an end.

Notice here that there are TWO actors. The Messiah (who will be cut off) and the PEOPLE of the prince who is to come.

AND after that - (in fact long after that) - the city and the sanctuary were destroyed by the people of Rome - the Roman army (70 A. D) but that is another event AFTER the 69th week and After the cross and After even the 70th week.

But in the NT - it is the Jews THEMSELVES that bring about the destruction of the city according to Christ's own statements. The people of the Prince who is to come - Messiah the Prince - His people are the Jews and the NT declares that THEY were the "People" that would not let God spare the city.

In John 1 we are told that the "people of Messiah the Prince" are the Jews. "HE came unto His own and His own received Him not". Isaiah 9:6 foretells the same message of the Messiah as coming prince - Dan 9:25

In Mat 23:37-38 we are told that Christ came to save the city and the nation but the "people of the prince" would not have it.

Matt 23:
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU were unwilling.

When Christ weeps over the city He says - the city is destroyed because of a specific reason relating to the people of the prince..

Luke 19:41-44 "Because You did not know the time of your visitation".

Daniel uses the symbol for war "a flood" and declares that war and desolation are "Decreed". Indeed Moses did predict that just such a result would occur.

Dan 9:26 And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

The "house left desolate" Matt 23:38 is a direct fulfillment of what "is decreed" by God
1Kings 9:6-7, Jer 22:5, Micah 3:11-12, Ezek 11:21-23.

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, NASB[/quote]

(Shall make a covenant Stronger – firm?)

NKJV 27Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

YLT – Youngs Literal Translation
27And He hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week,


”He hath strengthened a covenant” – this “HE” is a reference to vs 26. In vs 26 we have only two choices – it can be “Messiah the Prince” or it can be the other actor in vs 26 “The PEOPLE of the prince who is to come”. The fact that this is singular means that it can not be “THE PEOPLE of the prince who is to come”. So that leaves only “the MESSIAH” as the proper antecedent to the pronoun “he”.

Daniel is told that the period of "strengthening" the covenant last for the entire 7 years - for the entire 70th week that follows the 69th week. The historicist messianic view presented here promotes the full 7 year period as the time when the covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-32 (Hebrews 8:8-12) is being "Confirmed" and strengthened.

Christ says explicitly that the work of the Messiah is very much tied to the covenant


At the start of Christ’s ministry – at the sermon on the mount Christ provides the blessings (Matt 5:3-11) and the curses (Matt 7:13-27) and affirms His own Law already given (Matt 5:21-48) declaring them to be unbreakable – He adds even deeper “stronger” meaning to the ones already in place (Matt 6:19-7:11)

This is in direct parallel to Moses giving the Covenant to Israel with the blessing and curse and the Law of God defined.

(Notice that IN the words of the New Covenant - the Law of the New Covenant is the existing moral code defining sin and rebellion -- Christ the Creator’s moral law known and in force at the time of Jeremiah )

Jer 31
31 "" Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,'' declares the LORD.
33 ""But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,'' declares the LORD, "" I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 ""They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,'' declares the LORD, ""for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.''

35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 "" If this fixed order departs From before Me,'' declares the LORD, ""Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever.''
37 Thus says the LORD, "" If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,'' declares the LORD.

#1. God’s Law- is still in place even in the New Covenant – it is that same law “Written on the heart”.

#2. This covenant is in place while God’s promise to Israel is in place that He would forgive them for their rebellion and would not cast them off.

#3. Christ comes to strengthen that Covenant – already in place – with promises to Israel already in place – with the Jer 31 promise of the city of Jeremiah's day rebuilt – already in place in Christ's day.

Jer 31
38 ""Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 ""The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.

Peter shows this strengthening of existing salvation covenants, laws and promises in his letter to the church. Peter declares that this is the subject of the OT – this the great

1 Peter 1

10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
12 It was [b]revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you[/b], in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you[/b] by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long to look.

Peter declares salvation’s covenantal promises of the OT to be “made more sure” in the fact of “seeing Christ” ministry during the time of His first coming.

2 Peter 1

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, ""This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased''
18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 [b]So we have the prophetic word made more sure[/b], to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.

Matt 26:28 "This is My blood of the Covenant", which is shed on behalf of Many for the forgiveness of sins"

1Cor 11:25 "This cup IS the New Covenant in My blood".

2Cor 3 tells us that it is the New Covenant alone that is "the ministry of righteousness" and "the covenant that gives life" .

Galatians 1:6-9 tells us that there has been only one gospel. And the message of the New Covenant alone is life, forgiveness and restored fellowship with God as we see it in Heb 8:8-12).

At the start of Christ's ministry we have the covenant "strengthened" in the form of the Long promised Messiah of the New Covenant finally arriving.

In the middle of "the week" of seven years we have the New Covenant "strengthened" in the form of the atoning sacrifice being made.

Then in the last 3.5 years we have it "strengthened" in the form of the full message of the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah preached in its fullness to the Hebrew nation church - the "Holy Nation" "Royal Priesthood" - "People for God's own possession".

At each step the covenant is strengthened until it reaches its complete zenith of proclamation to the Hebrews.

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 9:27 in the middle of the week He will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;

Here we do not see "the covenant ended" - rather the covenant is strengthened for the full 7 years. What we see is that the sacrifices of the OT Hebrew nation church - end in the middle of the week. THe Messiah's atoning sacrifice brings about the end of sacrifices. So DID the Messiah put a STOP to sacrifices and offerings (from God’s POV) when He came – but only in the midst of the week (3.5 years into His ministry)?

Heb 10
4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "" SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
...
9 then He said, "" BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.'' He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
...
16 "" THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,'' He then says,
17 "" AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.''
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Heb 7
12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.
...
19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Daniel's prophecy highlights one of the key gospel doctrines regarding the sacrificial system in relationship to the atoning death of the Messiah. Here we see that the sacrifices themselves would end - as they are merely shadows pointing TO the work of the Messiah (Col 2:17).

ONE alternative to this gospel central view - is that the event being highlighted (in this epic prophecy regarding the coming Messiah in 480 years) - is that the minor aspect of the Roman people and the Roman Caesar as they stop the defunct worship practices of an apostate Jewish church about 40 years after the Messiah negates their usefulness.

(Truly a trivialization of the mammoth gospel themes that the first view highlights in Daniel 9.) This view bypasses the aspect of the Romans act of slaughtering the Jews - and focuses instead on the fact that this stops sacrifices that are already made void and made defunct by the Messiah some 40 years prior to this.

Another even less useful concept is that this key segment of Daniel's prophecy focused on an insignificant and pointless act of a future Antichrist at the end of time who stops Jewish animal sacrifices already made void some 2000 years prior to that by the Messiah and already Stopped by the Romans 2000 years prior.. (One wonders if the antichrist is to be applauded for that or criticized).

The double problem in this view is that stopping what Christ already made void is pointless just as stopping what was Already Stopped is pointless. So you must also invent an entirely NEW imaginative story line to precede this event. One where God re-instituting the defunct "Shadows" sacrifices that pointed FORWARD to Christ's first coming. This means trading the more gospel centric view of Christ as the antitype for all Hebrew temple sacrifices and replacing that with this anti-Christ centric view of sacrifices-resumed then-stopped-again -- hard to swallow by every standard.

 

[Ed Edwards]

//Daniel 9 starts with a 70 year timeline
prophecy – which is in fact a chronological
sequence - given by Jeremiah.
This timeline prophecy of 70 years – LIKE
ALL timeline prophecies in scripture, is contiguous! ... //

Actually, all timeline prophecies in scriptures
are contiguous, if you close up the gaps.

I've already shown how the Holy Scripture
places a GAP between the 69th year and
and the 70th years DURING WHICH God
is saving gentiles like yourself.
So without that gap, you would not have been
saved.

While the conversation in Daniel 9;1-2 is
about 70 years, the conversation in
Daniel as about "70 sevens" or "70 weeks"
which most people think is
70 x 7 years = 490 years.

Dan 9:24a (KJV1611 Edition):
Seuentie weekes are determined vpon thy people,
and vpon thy holy citie, ...
The 70 weeks of Daniel are
about Jewish/Israeli and their holy city:
Jerusalem.
The gap between the 69th & 70th
week is about gentiles.

 

[Ed Edwards]

// IF a builder contracts to build your house
in 3 months but then injects "undefined gaps of time"
between the 2nd and 3rd month
- the entire 3 month contract is made void.//

Bad example.

I just found out why God gave me a strange
experience in my life some 12 years ago:
I contracted with a builder to remodel
my bathroom. I said "change all surfaces but
the covers to the lights". He said "Why don't
I change that also? So I let him.
He agreed the project would be done in
three weeks. And it was.

I did not know that it would be:
1 week in February
2ed week in March
and 3rd week in May.
But it was.

The 70 years of Jeremiah noted in Dan 9:2
is about the desolation of Jerusalem.
The 70 weeks of Daniel noted starting
in Dan 9:24 is about something else,
this:

Dan 9:24 (KJV1611 Edition):

Seuentie weekes are determined vpon thy people,
and vpon thy holy citie,

to finish the transgression,
and to make an ende of sinnes,
and to make reconciliation for iniquitie,
and to bring in euerlasting righteousnes,
and to seale vp the vision and prophecie,
and to anoynt the most Holy.

Yisrael's trangression continues - it gets done at
the middle of the 70th week of Daniel
Yisrael's sinnes are not ended - it gets done
at the end of the 70th week of Daniel
Yisrael's iniquity has not been reconciled on earth - it
gets done at the end of the 70th week of Daniel
Yisrael's everlasting righteousness gets
done at the end of the 70th week of Daniel,
hasn't happened yet.
The most Holy will be anointed BY YISRAEL
at the end of the 70th week of Daniel -- this
has NOT happened yet.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Double Post

Maybe the double post is a sign from God that
it is a double fulfillment?