history lesson

[Ed Edwards]

//It includes the 1260 year timeline of Dan 7 - the dark ages.//

These 1260 days are 3½-years -
The first half of the Tribulation (of the bad guys
associated with the Antichrist) Period

In fact, the Dark Ages in Europe were the
ascendancy of Germanic/Hun Christian Tribes
NOT the low point of the true Church

Dan 7:25 And shall speake wordes against the most High,
and shall consume the Saintes of the most High,
and thinke that he may change times and lawes,
and they shalbe giuen into his hand, vntill a time,
and times and the deuiding of time.

Oh, that looks like a time (1), times (2)
dividing of time (½) = 1+2+½=3½-years
-- NOT 1260-years but 1260-days
-- NOT the dark ages but the last
half of the Tribulation (of the bad guys
associated with the Antichrist) Period.

This Tribulation Period is in our future.
This 1260-days will NOT have any inserts
that I've seen so far in the Bible.

But the 70x7=490 Year Has a mention in Daniel
of the first 7 weeks, second 62 weeks
and last 1 week. As far as I know, there
was no inserted time between the 7th-week
and the next 62-weeks.

But when Daniel 9:26-27 is compared with
Romans 11 AND OTHER SCRIPTURE,
we see that a gap is inserted by the Bible
with rational given by the Bible between
the the Resurrection of Christ at the end
of the 69th Week and the 70th Week.

// ... all quantitave timelines are contiguous//

is a man-made rule.
Actually God's plan to have that gap
was made BEFORE GOD CREATED
THE WORLD.\

Eph 1:4 (KJV1769):
According as he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without
blame before him in love:

Speaking the Blood of Jesus shed for our redemption:
1Pe 1:19-20 (Geneva Bible - 1599 Edition):

But with the precious blood of Christ,
as of a Lambe vndefiled, and without spot.
20 Which was ordeined
before the foundation of the world,
but was declared in the last times for your sakes,

Uh, looks like the gap was preplanned by God
prior to His creation of the Cosmos (Greek
for either 'universe' or 'world').

Do you need more proof about that gap?

As for the scripture that says "hey, thou dense
one -- there is a gap between the 69th and 70th
of week of Daniel that streaches from the
Day of Pentacost to the Day of the Lord (marked
by the pretribulation rapture2, GREAT SNATCH,
DEPARTURE OF THE SAINTS, UPLIFTING, COME HITHER,
etc") -- that scripture is right after the one that says:
"be not deceived, the Triune God (God the Father, God
the Sun, and God the Holy Spirit) is ONE AND ONLY ONE
GOD."

 

[BobRyan]

//It includes the 1260 year timeline of Dan 7 - the dark ages.//

These 1260 days are 3½-years -
The first half of the Tribulation (of the bad guys
associated with the Antichrist) Period

Well you are wrong about that as well. Just like the 490 days of Dan 9 (70 weeks) are in fact 490 years -- so also the (times time and one-half time -- 3.5 prophetic years = 1260 real years at 360 prophetic days per prophetic year).

But worse than that all you have done is show that even in your own model where you admit that 70 weeks (490 prophetic days) is in fact 490 years but 1260 prophetic days is not to use the same rule... you do not disrupt and abuse your 1260 days so that the various days are separated by 1000's of years of undefined time segments as you do with the 490 days.

So the question is - how is this helping you at all to point out this case where you do NOT do that disruptive insert into the timeline?

It does nothing but CONTRAST your actions in Dan 7 against what you did in Dan 9.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Ed said --
// ... all quantitave timelines are contiguous//

is a man-made rule.

Fine - I gave you timeline after timeline in which ALL agree that this rule holds.

So show me that the abuse PTR needs to do to the 490 year timeline has any support in scripture at all by way of comparison to ALL quantitative timelines in scripture just as I show that my model IS consistent with them ALL -- show how yours is instead of simply showing what you assume but have yet to prove.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

..
It does nothing but CONTRAST your actions
in Dan 7 against what you did in Dan 9.

I spoke where the Bible spoke.
I was silent where the Bible was silent.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Fine - I gave you timeline after timeline
in which ALL agree that this rule holds.
...

I didn't agree.
I am part of 'all'.
I note that the commentary of the translators of the
Geneva Bible, 1560 Edition on Daniel 9:26-27 follow
you. Were they Catholic or Church of England?

 

[BobRyan]

Here is the statement I made about "all"

Fine - I gave you timeline after timeline in which ALL agree that this rule holds.

So show me that the abuse PTR needs to do to the 490 year timeline has any support in scripture at all by way of comparison to ALL quantitative timelines in scripture just as I show that my model IS consistent with them ALL -- show how yours is instead of simply showing what you assume but have yet to prove.

Here is the list that "ALL" agree to "even you" --

To be specific -- we have NO examples of ANY timeilines in all of scripture that can survive the diciing, slicing chopping and vivisecting that PTR proposes for the 490 year timeline of Dan 9.

This rule includes --

The 70 year timeline in Jeremiah referred to in Dan 9.
It includes the 430 year timeline God set for Abraham's descenants in Egypt.
It includes the 1260 year timeline of Dan 7 - the dark ages.
It includes the 2300 year timeline of Dan 8.
It includes the 3 day timeline Christ gives for his crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection.

No slicing and dicing and inserting 1000's of years gaps into these timelines - because "by definition" all quantitave timelines are contiguous.

This could not be more obvious to the unbiased objective reader

-----------

the only difference is that you propose that the 490 year timeline is an exception where you are allowed to insert 1000's of years of gaps into the timeline -- and yet you readily admit that this abuse of the timeline must not be done to any of the others - or they would fail miserably in marking the quantitative timeline they define.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I note that the commentary of the translators of the
Geneva Bible, 1560 Edition on Daniel 9:26-27 follow
you. Were they Catholic or Church of England?

I note that John Gill - author of the first Baptist commentary agrees with the points I made in Dan 9


Do you think he was "Catholic Baptist" or "Anglican Baptist"??:thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

But when Daniel 9:26-27 is compared with
Romans 11 AND OTHER SCRIPTURE,
we see that a gap is inserted by the Bible
with rational given by the Bible between
the the Resurrection of Christ at the end
of the 69th Week and the 70th Week.

....

I spoke where the Bible spoke.
I was silent where the Bible was silent.

Would that any of that were actually true.

You claimed Romans 11 as a timeline -- it is not.

You claimed that Romans 11 defines some part of the 490 year timeline in Dan 9 -- it does not.

You completely reject the very Biblically solid position of John Gill -- author the first Baptist commentary in the 18th century.

I think the record speaks for itself on that one.:type:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //You claimed Romans 11 as a timeline -- it is not.//

I did not make that claim.
I said WHEN Daniel 9:26-27 is compared
with Romans 11 AND OTHER SCRIPTURE,
we see that a gap is inserted by the Bible ...
Between the Resurrection of Christ (at the end
of the 69th week) [start of the gap]
and the 70th week [after end of the gap].

Of course there is lots of other things
you would have to accept also, so obviously
you have to act like you haven't the foggiest about
what I'm talking about. ;

I do not claim that Romans 11 IS A TIMELINE.
I do claim that Romans 11 EXPLAINS the
gap between what has drug on (33AD to 2007AD)
1,974 years so far.

//You completely reject the very Biblically solid position
of John Gill -- author the first Baptist commentary in the 18th century.//

I don't know John Gill. I was
rather young when he passed on in 1771.

Wickipedia: //John Gill (November 23, 1697 – October 14, 1771)//

Do you think he was "Catholic Baptist" or "Anglican Baptist"??
Yes.
He was a Calvinist.
Calvinists don't know nothing about eschatology.
I beleive in OSAS (once saved /by Jesus/,
always saved /by Jesus/ ) but am no Calvinist.

 

[Ed Edwards]

//You claimed that Romans 11 defines
some part of the 490 year timeline in Dan 9 -- it does not.//

It does.

I did claim it.

This fully justifies the Church Age gap
from 33AD until the soon coming pretribulation
rapture2 (which hasn't happened to 18 Nov 2007):

Rom 11:25-26 (KJV1611 Edition):
For I would not, brethren, that ye should bee ignorant
of this mysterie (least yee should bee wise in your
owne conceits) that blindnesse in part is happened
to Israel, vntill the fulnes of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saued, as it is written,
// There shall come out of Sion the Deliuerer,
and shall turne away vngodlinesse from Iacob. //

Unless one has some scripture proof (like a "twinkling of
an eye") that "the fullness of the gentiles be come in"
takes place fast - one should not make unproved claims.

I could care less about John Gill.
What do these guys say?
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Paul
Peter
James

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan: //You claimed Romans 11 as a timeline -- it is not.//

I did not make that claim.
I said WHEN Daniel 9:26-27 is compared
with Romans 11 AND OTHER SCRIPTURE,
we see that a gap is inserted by the Bible ...
Between the Resurrection of Christ (at the end
of the 69th week) [start of the gap]
and the 70th week [after end of the gap].

And I said "would that that claim were true".

So on that point we continue to wait to have it actually shown to be true from scripture.

I do not claim that Romans 11 IS A TIMELINE.
I do claim that Romans 11 EXPLAINS the
gap between what has drug on (33AD to 2007AD)
1,974 years so far.

Again -- great "claim" -- great "Assertion" but the trick is in proving that it has substance by showing it in the text.

that is the missing part.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

//Again -- great "claim" -- great "Assertion" but the trick is in proving that it has substance by showing it in the text.

//that is the missing part.//

Mat 16:2-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
But he answered, and said vnto them, When
it is euening, ye say, Faire wether: for ye skie is red.
3 And in the morning ye say, To day shall
be a tempest: for the skie is red and lowring.
O hypocrites, ye can discerne the face of the skie,
and can ye not discerne the signes of the times?

To be specific -- we have NO examples of ANY timeilines in all of scripture that can survive the diciing, slicing chopping and vivisecting that PTR proposes for the 490 year timeline of Dan 9.

This rule includes --

The 70 year timeline in Jeremiah referred to in Dan 9.
It includes the 430 year timeline God set for Abraham's descenants in Egypt.
It includes the 1260 year timeline of Dan 7 - the dark ages.
It includes the 2300 year timeline of Dan 8.
It includes the 490 year (70 weeks of years) timeline of Dan 9.
It includes the 3 day timeline Christ gives for his crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection.

No slicing and dicing and inserting 1000's of years gaps into these timelines - because "by definition" all quantitave timelines are contiguous.

The 70 Weeks of Daniel is the only time line
which is split in parts in the prime source.
The other timelines are NOT split into parts.
Sorry, ed didn't split the 70 weeks of Daniel,
Daniel wrote it that way.

Dan 9:24a, 26-27 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Seuentie weekes are determined

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weekes,
shall Messiah be slaine, and shall haue nothing,,
and the people of the prince that shall come,
shall destroy the citie and the Sanctuarie,
and the end thereof shalbe with a flood: and vnto
the end of the battell it shalbe destroyed by desolations.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirme the couenant
with many for one weeke: and in the middes
of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and
the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading
of the abominations, he shall make it desolate,
euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe
powred vpon the desolate.

Here are the parts mentioned:
- the first 7 weeks (49 years)
- the next 62 years (434 years_
- the 70th year - 1 year - further divided into:
- - first ½-week (3½-years)
- - second ½-week (3½-years)

(Ed notes he didn't first mention it,
we are talking about what DANIEL wrote)

There are like 7 each mentions of the following
in the Bible (see next post, post #133):

42 months (3½years)
1260 days (3½-years)
time, times, & the dividing of time (1+2+½=3½-years)
time, times, & half a time (1+2+½=3½-years)
-Hello - i didn't make this up - it is in the Bible

(see my second post following to see which of the mentioned
timelines have 'gaps' mentioned???)

 

[Ed Edwards]

While this (note on another venue)
notes that 42 months of 30 days are
1260 days and they both are 3½ years of 360 days each;
there is another related prophetic time:
"time, and times, and half (a time)" or
'time, times, and a dividing of time'.
References: (Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).
(Ah, these ARE mentioned, just no mention that
'time, times, and half a time' = 1+2+½ = 3½-years
but sometimes folks have to do thier own figuring).

Dan 9:27 [reference #2 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Dan 9:27 implies that there are two halves of Daniel's 70th week.
I believe the AOD (abomination of Desolation) happens
in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

Let us look at the 42 months, 3½-year, 1260days,
time-times-and-half-a-time passages & half weeks:

All selections are from the KJV1611 Edition:

Dan 7:25 [reference #1 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And he shall speake great words against
the most high, and shall weare out the Saints of the most high, and thinke
to change times, and lawes: and they shall be giuen into his hand,
vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.

The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

Dan 12:7 [reference #3 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And I heard the man clothed in linnen,
which was vpon the waters of the riuer, when he held vp his right hand,
and his left hand vnto heauen, and sware by him that liueth for euer, that it shalbe
for a time, times, and an halfe: and when hee shall haue accomplished
to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall bee finished.

The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

Rev 11:1-3 [references #4 and #5 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen me a reede like
vnto a rod, and the Angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple
of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the Court which is without the
Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles, and the holy citie
shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.
3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
clothed in sackcloth.

The measuring devise signifies that the temple mount is to be
measured for the rebuilding of the temple. I believe this
Temple will be rebuilt in 3½-years.
The two witness will have POWER and will prophesie 1260 days

Sorry folks but if Antichrist scatters the power of the people
for 3½-years and the two witnesses have power 3½-years -- how can
this be at the same time? Two different periods of 3½-years are suggested

Rev 11:2 [reference #3 from JKV1611 Edition]:
But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote
fourty and two moneths.

The reason not to measure, is because nothing will be built
where the 'Court which is without the Temple' AKA: Court
of the Nations or Court of the Gentiles.
The Temple consists of the Holy of Holies & in the Holy Place
in a tall building (taller than it is wide).
Around that is the court where sacrifices are made.
Sacrifices can be made while the Holy of Holies & Holy Place
building is being built.
Outside the court of the men is the court of the nations.
This part of the temple complex: court of the nations,
is where the 3ed most holy shrine of the Muslim world stands
today: the Dome of the Rock. Interesting prophecy, eh ? written
in about 96AD about a situation which didn't exist until
about 686AD.

Rev 12:6 [reference #6 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two hundred, and threescore dayes.

The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years.

Rev 12:14 [reference #7 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that shee might flee into the wildernesse into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and halfe a time, from the face of the serpent.

God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
This is OBVIOUSLY the same period as in Rev 12:6.

Rev 13:5 [reference #7 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen vnto him a mouth, speaking great things, and blasphemies, and power was giuen
vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.

This is generally considered the rule of the Antichrist for
3½-years. But note the word 'continue' - Antichrist is already
ruling something and continues his rule for 3½-years more.
This also indicates two periods, both of which could be 3½-years
in length.

So here is what I end up with for the two suggested each 3½-year-periods
In Daniel 9:27.

1. - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rises to power
- the two witness will have POWER and will prophesy 3½-years
- the holy city (Jerusalem) is tread underfoot (while the temple /in Jerusalem/ is built)

2. - The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
- the 3½-years in which the antichrist rules in power
- The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years
- God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.

 

[Ed Edwards]

//The 70 year timeline in Jeremiah referred to in Dan 9.//

Dan 9:2 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Euen in the first yeere of his reigne, I Daniel vnderstood
by bookes the nomber of the yeeres, whereof the Lord
had spoken vnto Ieremiah the Prophet, that he would
accomplish seuentie yeeres in the desolation of Ierusalem.

- that shows no breaks in the 70-years of Jeremiah.
Starts- the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem
Period - the Babylonian captivity
Ends- rebuilding of Jerusalem

- Principle - we can figure out the start, period, and end of
Biblical timelines (could just be timelines that have
been fulfilled?)

A selection from Jeremiah:
Jer 25:11-12 And this whole land shalbe desolate,
and an astonishment, and these nations shall serue
the King of Babel seuentie yeeres.
12 And when the seuentie yeres are accomplished,
I will visite the King of Babel and that nation, saith the Lord,
for their iniquities, euen the land of the Caldeans,
and will make it a perpetuall desolation,


//the 430 year timeline God set for Abraham's descenants in Egypt.//

[skipped cause I'm tired of this exercise]


//the 1260 year timeline of Dan 7 - the dark ages.//

My post before ( #133 above) shows this is
a prophecy of the last ½ of the 70th Week of Daniel.
Even before that, I showed how this is more likelly
1260 days = 3½-years.

Starts: after mid-Tribulation Period crisis
Period: Second half of Daniel's 70th week.
Ends: The Second Advent of Jesus in power and Glory
to destroy the Antichrist & his words.

- Principle - we can figure out the start, period, and end of
Biblical timelines


//the 2300 year timeline of Dan 8.//

Dan 8:11 And extolled himselfe against the prince of the hoste
from whome the dayly sacrifice was taken away, and the place
of his Sanctuarie was cast downe.
Dan 8:12 And a time shall be giuen him ouerthe dayly sacrifice
for the iniquitie: and it shall cast downe the trueth to the ground,
and thus shall it doe, and prosper.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one of the Saints speaking, and one
of the Saints spake vnto a certaine one, saying, Howe long
shall endure the vision of the dayly sacrifice, and the iniquitie
of the desolation to treade both the Sanctuarie and the armie
vnder foote?
Dan 8:14 And he answered me, Vnto the euening and
the morning, two thousand and three hundreth: then shall
the Sanctuarie be clensed.

start - daily sacrifice taken away
period - ??? (maybe the Lord will come back in 2370AD?)
-(more likely - 2300 literal days in the days of the four kingdoms)
-(in which Alexandria's [Greek] kingdom was divided)
end - Sanctuary cleansed

This could be divided into 2,000 + 300?
Greek is [two thousand] [three] [hundred] [dawns] [sunsets].


//the 3 day timeline Christ gives for his crucifixion,
death, burial and resurrection.//

I note most people follow Catholic dogma
take these 72 hours and end them
prematurely in like 36 to 40 hours.

 

[BobRyan]

Ed said


//the 3 day timeline Christ gives for his crucifixion,
death, burial and resurrection.//

I note most people follow Catholic dogma
take these 72 hours and end them
prematurely in like 36 to 40 hours.

Obfuscation - it does not matter if you use inclusive reconning so that any part of the day will suffice or if you try to exact 3x24 hour days in that 3 days... you STILL can't insert 1000's of years of gaps between the days of the timeline and have it work.

Which is what the point was to start with --

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

//the 2300 year timeline of Dan 8.//


Dan 8:14 And he answered me, Vnto the euening and
the morning, two thousand and three hundreth: then shall
the Sanctuarie be clensed.

start - daily sacrifice taken away
period - ??? (maybe the Lord will come back in 2370AD?)
-(more likely - 2300 literal days in the days of the four kingdoms)
-(in which Alexandria's [Greek] kingdom was divided)
end - Sanctuary cleansed

This could be divided into 2,000 + 300?
Greek is [two thousand] [three] [hundred] [dawns] [sunsets].

Could be?

You have yet to show how you can insert BETWEEN the days 1000's of years of undefined lengths of time and STILL have the 2300 years of Dan 8 work out. so my point in raising this example remains.

EVEN if you take them as 2300 days and ignore the day-for-year principle in daniel you STILL can't make that timeline work by inserting 1000's of years of undefined gaps of time between the days of the timeline. hence -- the point remains.

IT is left as an exercise for the reader to observe that there is really no way out of this point for the PTR model.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

//the 1260 year timeline of Dan 7 - the dark ages.//

My post before ( #133 above) shows this is
a prophecy of the last ½ of the 70th Week of Daniel.
Even before that, I showed how this is more likelly
1260 days = 3½-years.

Starts: after mid-Tribulation Period crisis
Period: Second half of Daniel's 70th week.
Ends: The Second Advent of Jesus in power and Glory
to destroy the Antichrist & his words.

- Principle - we can figure out the start, period, and end of
Biblical timelines

Nothing shows the 1260 years of Dan 7 to be in any way connected to the 490 years of Dan 9.

Nothing you have provided even in your OWN claim for this 1260 year timeline (I believe you ignore the day-for-year prinicple in Dan and call this one 1260 days instead) - shows that YOU insert 1000's of years of gaps into this 1260 day timeline.

My point in bringing it up -- remains. No breaking of the timeline with 1000's of years in gaps between the 1260 days.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

//the 430 year timeline God set for Abraham's descenants in Egypt.//

[skipped cause I'm tired of this exercise]

Indeed - so far you have not found one single example where you CAN take a numeric timeline and slice it apart by inserting 1000's of years of undefined lengths of time into it --

If this is the point that you stop trying to find one -- then you have done well.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

//The 70 year timeline in Jeremiah referred to in Dan 9.//

Dan 9:2 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Euen in the first yeere of his reigne, I Daniel vnderstood
by bookes the nomber of the yeeres, whereof the Lord
had spoken vnto Ieremiah the Prophet, that he would
accomplish seuentie yeeres in the desolation of Ierusalem.

- that shows no breaks in the 70-years of Jeremiah.
Starts- the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem
Period - the Babylonian captivity
Ends- rebuilding of Jerusalem

It is left as an exercise for the reader to observe that this "startpoint... Length... Endpoint" scenario is EXACTLY how numeric (quantified) timelines work!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

//Nothing shows the 1260 years of Dan 7 to be
in any way connected to the 490 years of Dan 9.//

tee hee

'Nothing' better show that
cause that is all the argument you have provided:
'nothing'.

Meanwhile, we Christians can look forward
to the pretribulation rapture2. AMEN!