Should members give money to their church?

[Tom Butler]

Regarding annsi's post #63:

If you have a pastor and the various ministry pastors all putting in 60-80 hours a week in a church of 1000 membership, there's something wrong with this picture.

I admire any minister's willingness to disregard the clock. Sometimes it has to be done. But week after week, month after month of this is laying the groundwork for big-time burnout.

Churches which have pastor and staff working those hours shouldn't be bragging about it. Churches which expect this kind of work from its pastor and staff are expecting too much.

Working 60-80 hours a week is not a measure of one's spirituality.

 

[annsni]

With the false teaching that tithing is for todays' Christians, did you ever think that maybe God isn't as much involved with the growth of your church as much as a man made doctrine? Of course we should give to our Churches, but not under false pretenses.

"Give as God tells you. If God tells you to give nothing, I don't want your money. What you give is between Him and you." That's what our pastor teaches. I don't think God would have blessed the church not just financially but spiritually and in changed lives if we were teaching under false pretenses.

 

[annsni]

Regarding annsi's post #63:

If you have a pastor and the various ministry pastors all putting in 60-80 hours a week in a church of 1000 membership, there's something wrong with this picture.

I admire any minister's willingness to disregard the clock. Sometimes it has to be done. But week after week, month after month of this is laying the groundwork for big-time burnout.

Churches which have pastor and staff working those hours shouldn't be bragging about it. Churches which expect this kind of work from its pastor and staff are expecting too much.

Working 60-80 hours a week is not a measure of one's spirituality.

No - that's not a measure of one's spirituality but it's a sign of a busy church. I do think that some of the people work too much but that's also seasonal - during other times of the year, things slow down significantly. We're finished with the building project (took 4 years of our staff to work on), so now the missions pastor (who was the GC of the project) can slow down a bit - AND he was given a cruise as a gift from the congregation for all of the long hours and hard work he put into it. Most of the men are careful to make sure that if they work long hours, they have atleast a day off for their families - and oftentimes the work they do involves their family so while they're working hard, they're building relationships too.

But I do agree that it's tough to keep up 60-80 hours without burning out.

 

[JerryL]

"Give as God tells you. If God tells you to give nothing, I don't want your money. What you give is between Him and you." That's what our pastor teaches. I don't think God would have blessed the church not just financially but spiritually and in changed lives if we were teaching under false pretenses.

Does he teach that the "tithe" is part of a Christian's worship? Does he teach that the tithe is for todays Christians? Does he teach that the tithe is how we are to support the church today?

 

[JerryL]

...and form a later post:

I am slightly confused by the words I have highlighted. They make it seem (to me) as though you consider your church as something distinct from yourself, rather than something of which you are a member. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would find it strange to use the word "they" to refer to a local church of which I am a member.

Yes, you would be wrong. When I refer to my wife and daughters, I also use the word they if I am talking about all of them at once.

 

[LeBuick]

Does he teach that the "tithe" is part of a Christian's worship? Does he teach that the tithe is for todays Christians? Does he teach that the tithe is how we are to support the church today?

What does it matter what you call it? Isn't that just symantics? Why destroy someone's religion or belief over one word that really doesn't matter?

As for part two, no, Christ supports His Church. It is His and His responsibility alone to sustain the Church. No one should give to support the Church. The defies all our theoligical beliefs. He is who makes the difference between our gifts and our needs. Giving is one way the giver gets blessed. The Bible clearly teaches this. When you give with a cheerful heart, it is given unto you in a running over vessel.

 

[JerryL]

What does it matter what you call it? Isn't that just symantics? Why destroy someone's religion or belief over one word that really doesn't matter?

As for part two, no, Christ supports His Church. It is His and His responsibility alone to sustain the Church. No one should give to support the Church. The defies all our theoligical beliefs. He is who makes the difference between our gifts and our needs. Giving is one way the giver gets blessed. The Bible clearly teaches this. When you give with a cheerful heart, it is given unto you in a running over vessel.

The point was to find out if he is teaching false doctrine. Yes, it does matter what you call it if he is teaching that a tithe is what makes God happy with your giving. Teaching that the tithe is for Christians today is false doctrine and to be rebutted and refuted. It puts an amount on our giving that God wants and expects, neither of which is true. A preacher that teaches this false doctrine to Christians just might himself in front of an angry God at some point.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The point was to find out if he is teaching false doctrine. Yes, it does matter what you call it if he is teaching that a tithe is what makes God happy with your giving. Teaching that the tithe is for Christians today is false doctrine and to be rebutted and refuted. It puts an amount on our giving that God wants and expects, neither of which is true. A preacher that teaches this false doctrine to Christians just might himself in front of an angry God at some point.

A pastor is to be without reproach. He is to study the Word of God and preach it as it is written.

The pastor who teaches one has to tithe 10% of one's money as a tithe to be blessed of God or remain under a curse has not properly studied the Word of God concerning tithing and is not qualified to teach or preach on the subject.

The LORD's tithe was never money...never

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

But I do agree that it's tough to keep up 60-80 hours without burning out.

They also have to be neglecting their family in the area of quality time too when they are working that much. When do they even have time to study God's Word?

 

[JerryL]

Let me explain working in the "real world":

First off, of our pastors:

Senior Pastor worked before he became a pastor at a young age and at times had to drive a bus and have a newspaper route to be able to support his family. He now works 60+ hours a week being the senior pastor of a church of approximately 1000 people. He has a staff of 45 to manage, studies about 20+ hours a week for his messages and is available 24/7 for any needs including emergencies, deaths, etc.

All this, and he still can't study and figure out that he is teaching falsehood when it comes to giving? I studied the tithe for about two years, it's not that hard to figure out.

I don't think God would have blessed the church not just financially but spiritually and in changed lives if we were teaching under false pretenses.

Considering the WOF and their theology, this is faulty logic. They think they are very blessed financially and spiritually. I guarantee, if you all are teaching tithing, you are teaching under false pretenses or just plain ignorance of the Bible. Maybe you are equating spiritually blessed into the financially blessed part. If you are well off financially, and have all the bells and whistles to make life easier, you might mistakingly think you are spiritually blessed. I've heard of pastors' telling people to do the 6 month tithe thing to see if God blesses them. Ask your pastor to do the opposite and tell them to quit tithing, maybe even have a few quit giving altogether for 6 months and see, if after that, they can see if God still blessed them, JUST for worshipping and loving Jesus.

 

[DHK]

Jerry, your profile says that you are a Baptist.
Do you attend a Baptist church? If so, what is its name?
It sounds like you are almost ashamed to be in a Baptist Church, by the tenor of your posts.

You say your pastor is paid but you seem to regret it, saying:

Originally Posted by JerryL
Our pastor is paid also. They, like most churches, are more interested in a bigger and bigger building with all the bells and whistles.

You don't seem satisfied where you are.

You go to a Community Church. Why do you call yourself a Baptist when it seems as if you don't have Baptist beliefs?

 

[JerryL]

You say your pastor is paid but you seem to regret it, saying:

You don't seem satisfied where you are.
[/I]
You go to a Community Church. Why do you call yourself a Baptist when it seems as if you don't have Baptist beliefs?

I don't mind paying our pastor. I said I give some of my offering to our church and some to a Christian organisation that helps the poor. Nowhere in Scripture does it say ALL my offering to God has to go through my Church. I go to a Southern Baptist Church, it just doesn't have "baptist" in the name. I have strong Baptist beliefs, though some of the SBC beliefs don't exactly square up with Scripture, problems any other denomination has. Don't think baptist have a monopoply on 100% rightness with Scripture. Early historical baptists didn't believe in tithing, it has only switched in the mid 1900's.

Why do you call yourself a Baptist when it seems as if you don't have Baptist beliefs?

I have historical baptist beliefs, not some of the new fangled addons that are springing up in the last 75 years. For 300+ years of "known" baptist history there was no belief in tithing. Some of the first baptist to add tithing to their text was the Freewill Baptists in 1940 and then the SBC in 1963. It's new teaching, not historical. Of baptist beliefs, I would say I line up more with the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

 

[DHK]

I have historical baptist beliefs, not some of the new fangled addons that are springing up in the last 75 years. For 300+ years of "known" baptist history there was no belief in tithing. Some of the first baptist to add tithing to their text was the Freewill Baptists in 1940 and then the SBC in 1963. It's new teaching, not historical.

The American Tract Society Dictionary was both written and edited by George Easton. He first published it in 1897. That is over 100 years ago. Here is what he says on tithing.

[FONT=&quot]The principle of the ancient tithes, namely, that ministers of the gospel and objects [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]of benevolence should be provided for by the whole people of God, according to [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]their means, is fully recognized in Scripture as applicable to the followers of Christ. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He sent his servants forth, two and two, without provisions or purses, to receive [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]their support from the people, since "the laborer is worthy of his hire," Mt 10:9-14; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Lu 10:4-8,16. Paul also reasons in the same way, 1Co 9:13-14; Ga 6:6. For [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]purpose of piety and beneficence, he directed the Corinthians, and virtually all [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Christians, to lay aside from their income, on the first day of the week, as the Lord [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]had prospered them, 1Co 16:2. There is no reason to doubt that the early [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Christians gave more freely of their substance than did the ancient Jews, Ac [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4:34-36; 2Co 8:1-4.

Did you say the past 75 years???


[/FONT]

 

[JerryL]

The American Tract Society Dictionary was both written and edited by George Easton. He first published it in 1897. That is over 100 years ago. Here is what he says on tithing.

Did you say the past 75 years???


[/FONT]

Squabbling over 25 years? Is his a baptist cofession of faith and is he the author of baptist history? Is the American Tract Society the be all/end all on all things God and Scripture?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

In light of the fact that storehouses in the Word of God were never mentioned in conjunction with money, and also that a couple verses clearly distinguish between storehouses and treasuries, it is wrong to say people are to bring money (man's definition of tithes) into the storehouse.

 

[JustChristian]

In light of the fact that storehouses in the Word of God were never mentioned in conjunction with money, and also that a couple verses clearly distinguish between storehouses and treasuries, it is wrong to say people are to bring money (man's definition of tithes) into the storehouse.

The most familiar verse on tithing is:

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].

tithes - ma`aser

tithe, tenth part

a) tenth part

b) tithe, payment of a tenth part

To tithe is to pay "a tenth part." I guess you're saying that this tenth part cannot be in money, coins, gold, etc. I don't think it make any difference. Yes, it could be a tenth part of your crops.


'owtsar - treasure, storehouse

a) treasure (gold, silver, etc)

b) store, supplies of food or drink

c) treasure-house, treasury

1) treasure-house

2) storehouse, magazine

3) treasury

4) magazine of weapons (fig. of God's armoury)

5) storehouses (of God for rain, snow, hail, wind, sea)

In the KJV this word is used in the following way:

AV — treasure(s) 61, treasury 10, storehouse(s) 3, cellars 2, armoury 1, garners 1, store 1

So a simple interpretation of this statement is to bring the payments of a tenth part into the treasury.

It sure sounds like giving money as a tithe to me.

 

[JerryL]

The most familiar verse on tithing is:

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].

tithes - ma`aser

tithe, tenth part

a) tenth part

b) tithe, payment of a tenth part
To tithe is to pay "a tenth part." I guess you're saying that this tenth part cannot be in money, coins, gold, etc. I don't think it make any difference. Yes, it could be a tenth part of your crops. It could ONLY be food products.
'owtsar - treasure, storehouse

a) treasure (gold, silver, etc)

b) store, supplies of food or drink

c) treasure-house, treasury

1) treasure-house

2) storehouse, magazine

3) treasury

4) magazine of weapons (fig. of God's armoury)

5) storehouses (of God for rain, snow, hail, wind, sea)

In the KJV this word is used in the following way:

AV — treasure(s) 61, treasury 10, storehouse(s) 3, cellars 2, armoury 1, garners 1, store 1

So a simple interpretation of this statement is to bring the payments of a tenth part into the treasury.

It sure sounds like giving money as a tithe to me.

You're using a secular (webster's type) dictionary to explain God's word. Tithe was NEVER, NEVER money in the Bible. The ONLY verse about using money was about trading in the tithe for money if it was to far to carry to the festival, THEN turn it back into food products or drink, to enjoy before the Lord.
Deu 14:23 "You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.
Deu 14:24 "If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you,
Deu 14:25 then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. Deu 14:26 "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

T
So a simple interpretation of this statement is to bring the payments of a tenth part into the treasury.

It sure sounds like giving money as a tithe to me.

1 Chronicles 27:25 And over the king's treasures [was] Azmaveth the son of Adiel: and over the storehouses in the fields, in the cities, and in the villages, and in the castles, [was] Jehonathan the son of Uzziah:

Quite obvious that the treasuries were different from the storehouses.

Azmaveth was in charge of the treasures and Jehonathan was in charge of the food kept in the storehouses.

Storehouses were not for treasures.

 

[LeBuick]

A pastor is to be without reproach. He is to study the Word of God and preach it as it is written.

The pastor who teaches one has to tithe 10% of one's money as a tithe to be blessed of God or remain under a curse has not properly studied the Word of God concerning tithing and is not qualified to teach or preach on the subject.

The LORD's tithe was never money...never

A Pastor can only teach the bible as he understands it and as the Lord reveals it to him. No one would intentionally teach a false doctrine so he is teaching the bible as he believes the bible.

@JerryL = I don't see the lord getting mad if all a preacher does wrong is uses the word tithe. That comment is a bit over dramatic don't you think?

 

[John of Japan]

@JerryL = I don't see the lord getting mad if all a preacher does wrong is uses the word tithe. That comment is a bit over dramatic don't you think?

It's a step better than "false gospel," which is what JerryL started out with. But I agree with you. I doubt if the Lord will be angry if a pastor gets his folk to give more to God's work as long as they are willing, able and "cheerful givers."