Should members give money to their church?

[standingfirminChrist]

A pastor is responsible to study and prepare what he is teaching or preaching behind the pulpit. If he is not teaching the congregation what the tithe was and the fact that Scripture never records it ever being money, then he is not qualified to teach it at all.... pastor or not.

 

[LeBuick]

A pastor is responsible to study and prepare what he is teaching or preaching behind the pulpit. If he is not teaching the congregation what the tithe was and the fact that Scripture never records it ever being money, then he is not qualified to teach it at all.... pastor or not.

If that is the pastors conclusion and/or understanding then that is what he will teach. Saying someone is teaching a false doctrine or isn't "qualified" to teach because their understanding or conclusion doesn't agree with yours is pretty arrogant of you don't you think? Sounds like you are saying you are always right and anyone whose understanding is different from yours shouldn't be in the pulpit.

There are many great scholars and even Church fathers to include the Apostles who didn't all agree 100% on many scriptural views. This was the basis and need for the Epistles. For anyone to take on the perspective I have the only correct or Godly view is pretty conceited.

I don't normally get personal but I am a pastor who disagrees with you and would think far less of myself if I changed my belief and teachings based on something I read on the Internet instead of what God has placed on my heart.

I divide the Word by the Word and really believe you guys are applying modern conditions/times/sayings to a time that was very different. Money has never been as accessible as it is in this country, day and time. No matter what you call it God's people are encouraged to cheerfully give and contribute to the ministry for the sustaining, advancing and uplifting of the Kingdom of God.

No, it isn't necessary as God's Word will continue to propagate regardless if I give or not. God's Church and Army will march on without my contributions. However I am blessed though my giving.... Who cares what you call it... The posts in this thread can be confused with encouraging one not to give which in my view is a view that should be taught with care and close monitoring and not blasted out irresponsibly into the cyber waves. My prayer is no one is misguided by the discussion in this thread...

This is like saying a New Testament Church shouldn't use the name Jehovah since that is how God revealed Himself in the OT.

Please accept my apologies for my rant...

 

[JerryL]

If that is the pastors conclusion and/or understanding then that is what he will teach. Saying someone is teaching a false doctrine or isn't "qualified" to teach because their understanding or conclusion doesn't agree with yours is pretty arrogant of you don't you think? Sounds like you are saying you are always right and anyone whose understanding is different from yours shouldn't be in the pulpit.

There are many great scholars and even Church fathers to include the Apostles who didn't all agree 100% on many scriptural views. This was the basis and need for the Epistles. For anyone to take on the perspective I have the only correct or Godly view is pretty conceited.

I don't normally get personal but I am a pastor who disagrees with you and would think far less of myself if I changed my belief and teachings based on something I read on the Internet instead of what God has placed on my heart.
I divide the Word by the Word and really believe you guys are applying modern conditions/times/sayings to a time that was very different. Money has never been as accessible as it is in this country, day and time. No matter what you call it God's people are encouraged to cheerfully give and contribute to the ministry for the sustaining, advancing and uplifting of the Kingdom of God.True No, it isn't necessary as God's Word will continue to propagate regardless if I give or not. No one has said not to give. God's Church and Army will march on without my contributions. If you think God will grow His Church, why not teach the Bible right and not depend on man to build it with improper giving principles However I am blessed though my giving....As am I Who cares what you call it...God The posts in this thread can be confused with encouraging one not to give which in my view is a view that should be taught with care and close monitoring and not blasted out irresponsibly into the cyber waves. Untrue My prayer is no one is misguided by the discussion in this thread...My prayer also, along with praying no one is misled by the deception of todays church on giving.This is like saying a New Testament Church shouldn't use the name Jehovah since that is how God revealed Himself in the OT.

Please accept my apologies for my rant...

What you "think" God places on your heart should square with the Bible. They had money back then also, lot's of rich people just like Abraham, yet none tithed money. It would seem your heart "wants" to believe in tithing yet it doesn't square with what the book says. Hey, I don't have to stand for you or you for me, and that's a good thing. Teach it how you want.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The first time I taught on tithes, I looked up every one of those passages and compared Scripture with Scripture... as any pastor is responsibility.

A pastor who teaches tithes were money has not even studied what the tithe was fully, but only took Scripture out of context to teach a false doctrine.

 

[JerryL]

I am a pastor who disagrees with you and would think far less of myself if I changed my belief and teachings based on something I read on the Internet instead of what God has placed on my heart.

I really don't think God cares what you think of yourself if it doesn't square with His Word.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

There are only 45 verses in the Word of God that have to do with tithing. Most of them are in the Old Testament and only in a few books.

It doesn't take long to read and study them. Try it sometime.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I really don't think God cares what you think of yourself if it doesn't square with His Word.

Amen, JerryL!

 

[DHK]

Squabbling over 25 years? Is his a baptist cofession of faith and is he the author of baptist history? Is the American Tract Society the be all/end all on all things God and Scripture?

It is not a squabble over 25 years. The ATSD was just the first resource I happened to pick at random. I am sure that if I researched the topic with any real depth, I would find that particular belief (tithing being connected with NT Christianity), as far beyond 100 years. I think you better check your history. I only gave you an example that your history is wrong and only your opinion. You are posting your opinion without backing it up with factual evidence.

 

[JerryL]

It is not a squabble over 25 years. The ATSD was just the first resource I happened to pick at random. I am sure that if I researched the topic with any real depth, I would find that particular belief (tithing being connected with NT Christianity), as far beyond 100 years. I think you better check your history. I only gave you an example that your history is wrong and only your opinion. You are posting your opinion without backing it up with factual evidence.

I said baptist history. Look at the confessions. No baptist confessions added tithing until lately. No historic baptist writings. I am backing it up, you find it in baptist history. Find it in early church history.

The purpose of this chapter is to demonstrate that early church leaders did not even attempt to introduce tithing for at least 200 years after Calvary. During this period early church leaders preferred to be extremely poor and predominantly ascetic rather than be sustained by any elaborate system of tithes and offerings. It will be clearly seen that, not only did the inspired writers of the New Testament not teach tithing for the church, neither did those who immediately followed them as leaders of the churches.



The “church” was very far from being a united system for many ­ centuries. Competing centers of Christianity arose in Rome, Ephesus, Antioch of Syria, Jerusalem, Caesarea, and North Africa. After the barbarian invasions of the 4th century began, the Roman Empire moved its ­ capital city to Constantinople, where Constantine protected and assisted the church in Constantinople as the most wealthy and influential church for many years to come.



While most church historians will laugh at the thought, not only was tithing NOT a doctrine, it was very far from being discussed by the early church. The locations of the earliest church councils show that Rome was not dominant. The first council at Nicea in A.D. 326 was necessary to ­ discuss the deity of Christ; the second at Constantinople in A.D. 381 was necessary to discuss the deity and person of the Holy Spirit. This was ­ followed by Chalcedon (451); 2nd Constantinople (553); 3rd Constantinople (681); 2nd Nicea (787); 4th Constantinople (869) and, finally, the 1st Lateran Council in Rome in A.D. 1123.

Beginning around the middle of the third century, the tithe only had the authority of a “suggestion” in Cyprian’s small area of influence in North Africa. And Cyprian had no authority over other zones of the divided church. Tithing would not even become a local church law for over five hundred years after Calvary. The introduction of tithing emerged in direct proportion to the disintegration of the doctrine of the priesthood of believers and the emergence of the power of the bishop-priests.



New Testament doctrines concerning the church and giving experienced a drastic change from the end of the first apostolic century to the middle of the third century. The first stage of decline was the removal of spiritual gifts from the laity. The second stage was the distinction of the bishop as a level higher than the other (formerly equal) elders in the church. The third stage of decline occurred when the bishop was given a high priestly status with spiritual power over the laity. In the fourth stage, the bishops, elders, and (sometimes) the deacons were encouraged to stop performing secular work and devote themselves full-time to the church. Tithing became the fifth stage of this doctrinal decline.
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[JerryL]

Look at the Bible, one of the earliest church fathers, Paul, never taught tithing. James, Peter or John did either.

Resistance to tithing has been increasing steadily in recent years, as more churchgoers have questioned the way their churches spend money. Like other philanthropists today, religious givers want to see exactly how their donations are being used. In some cases, the growth of megachurches, some with expensive worship centers equipped with coffee bars and widescreen TVs, have turned people off of tithing. And those who object are finding like-minded souls on the Web in theological forums.

Many churchgoers also balk at the idea that a certain amount of money will ensure salvation. They see tithing and say, "no, that's not the way God works," says James Hudnut-Beumler, dean of Vanderbilt University's divinity school and author of the recent book "In Pursuit of the Almighty's Dollar," a history of Protestant fund raising..............

The anti-tithing movement has found support in some unlikely places: theologically conservative divinity schools and church pulpits. At Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C., professor Andreas Kostenberger challenges tithing in classes on the New Testament. He teaches that if you add up all taxes paid by the ancient Israelites, they exceed 10%, and that in the New Testament there's no percentage rule. He says pastors perpetuate the 10% figure out of "pragmatism, tradition and ignorance, quite frankly."

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[Aaron]

The first time I taught on tithes, I looked up every one of those passages and compared Scripture with Scripture... as any pastor is responsibility.

A pastor who teaches tithes were money has not even studied what the tithe was fully, but only took Scripture out of context to teach a false doctrine.

The priests were accounted to have paid the OT tithe through Abraham, because Levi was in Abraham's loins when he paid tithes of the spoils of war to Melchisedec, Heb. 7:9-10.

If you need an explicit Scripture linking the tithe to money, then there it is. However, it doesn't matter what the currency was. In an agrarian society, grain is as much money as is silver and gold, and the storehouses are the banks.

 

[DHK]

Look at the Bible, one of the earliest church fathers, Paul, never taught tithing. James, Peter or John did either.

First, I believe your argument is from silence; the same way the Catholics argue for infant baptism. Paul, James, Peter, John, did not preach against tithing either. They never forbade it. Thus the argument is one of silence.

Second, if you study the issue of giving thoroughly, (and honestly), I believe that you will see that the early church didn't have to mention tithing for the simple reason that they gave sacrificially--that is way beyond their tithe. They had all things in common. They sold what they had and laid it at the apostles feet to be distributed to the poor. Are you willing to give patterned after the early church of Jerusalem. It was very sacrificial, far more than a tithe. It was unnecessary for them even to mention a tithe.

Third, the principles of giving set forth in 2Cor.8 and 9, speak of sacrificial giving, giving far greater than a tithe. Read the first few verses of chapter 8. The churches of Macedonia lived in poverty, while the church at Corinth was relatively well off. Yet the churches in Macedonia in spite of their poverty gave in abundance. In fact, Paul says, they gave themselves first. They were the ideal when it came to sacrificial giving. Those who know what it is to practice sacrificial giving don't need to be taught about tithing. Their giving will be far beyond any tithe. The tithe is taught just as a starting place, a place to begin. Real giving is sacrificial. The Bible teaches sacrificial giving--a giving that not a lot of people practice.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The priests were accounted to have paid the OT tithe through Abraham, because Levi was in Abraham's loins when he paid tithes of the spoils of war to Melchisedec, Heb. 7:9-10.

If you need an explicit Scripture linking the tithe to money, then there it is. However, it doesn't matter what the currency was. In an agrarian society, grain is as much money as is silver and gold, and the storehouses are the banks.

Actually, Scripture would prove you wrong. Joseph's Brothers bought grain with their monies.

Had money beein acceptable as a tithe, God would not have told the Israelites to buy back the tithe with their money. He would have told them to give the money to the priest as a tithe.

As to what Abram tithed to Melchizadek, Scripture does not say that he tithed money. And since the Law was still in effect when the author of Hebrews said Levi paid tithes, and the tithes the Levites paid were 10% of the tithes they received... which were food, It is obvious that Abraham gave food.

The rest of the spoils of war were given to the king of Sodom.

The tithe of the spoils of war, according to Numbers 31 were much, much less than the 10% that was given to Melchizedek. This proves two things.

1. The tithe to Melchizedek was not something that had always been established by God. If it were, then God would not have told the Israelites that the tithe of the spoils of war were much less as He did in Numbers 31.

2. Abram's tithe is not a tithe that should be an example to Christians today as his were not of his own property, but of the spoils of war. Abram had already made a promise to God that he would not keep any of that which he gained by bloodshed.

If Abram's tithe was a requirement by God, why wasn't Isaac told to tithe? Why was Jacob in the position to barter with God before tithing?

Truth is, tithing was not required of God until the Law. That is why men were still tithing in Hebrews.

 

[JerryL]

First, I believe your argument is from silence; the same way the Catholics argue for infant baptism. Paul, James, Peter, John, did not preach against tithing either. They never forbade it. Thus the argument is one of silence. Second, if you study the issue of giving thoroughly, (and honestly), I believe that you will see that the early church didn't have to mention tithing for the simple reason that they gave sacrificially--that is way beyond their tithe. They had all things in common. They sold what they had and laid it at the apostles feet to be distributed to the poor. Are you willing to give patterned after the early church of Jerusalem. It was very sacrificial, far more than a tithe. It was unnecessary for them even to mention a tithe.

Third, the principles of giving set forth in 2Cor.8 and 9, speak of sacrificial giving, giving far greater than a tithe. Read the first few verses of chapter 8. The churches of Macedonia lived in poverty, while the church at Corinth was relatively well off. Yet the churches in Macedonia in spite of their poverty gave in abundance. In fact, Paul says, they gave themselves first. They were the ideal when it came to sacrificial giving. Those who know what it is to practice sacrificial giving don't need to be taught about tithing. Their giving will be far beyond any tithe. The tithe is taught just as a starting place, a place to begin. Real giving is sacrificial. The Bible teaches sacrificial giving--a giving that not a lot of people practice.

I guarantee they forbade it, they balked at any idea of keeping any part of the law. They didn't preach it, therefore didn't practice it. Yours is the arguement from silence, saying that since they didn't preach it they didn't forbid it. They didn't preach it because they didn't practice it. Keep this one aspect of the law and see what God says about it. Oh, I forgot, He did say something about it. You better start practicing the other 612. You give what God lays on your heart. Cheerful. Are you overriding what God says?

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Check Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon and other historians and see what they thought of the tithe. Martin Luther abhored any thought of preaching the tithe. If you are willing to really study it go here. Tithing Study Group They are always ready to study with pro-tithers.

 

[JerryL]

The priests were accounted to have paid the OT tithe through Abraham, because Levi was in Abraham's loins when he paid tithes of the spoils of war to Melchisedec, Heb. 7:9-10.

If you need an explicit Scripture linking the tithe to money, then there it is. However, it doesn't matter what the currency was. In an agrarian society, grain is as much money as is silver and gold, and the storehouses are the banks.

Read Hebrews 7 and you will see that in those verses you are quoting, that writer is indeed tying the two together and then abrogating it later in the same chapter with the rest of the law.

 

[AresMan]

Read Hebrews 7 and you will see that in those verses you are quoting, that writer is indeed tying the two together and then abrogating it later in the same chapter with the rest of the law.

Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment [v.5] going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

 

[LeBuick]

What you "think" God places on your heart should square with the Bible. They had money back then also, lot's of rich people just like Abraham, yet none tithed money. It would seem your heart "wants" to believe in tithing yet it doesn't square with what the book says. Hey, I don't have to stand for you or you for me, and that's a good thing. Teach it how you want.

You don't know that for sure, you can only say the Bible doesn't document the use of money. The Bible also doesn't document Jesus using the restroom but I believe he did.

EDITED to ADD: What I do know is societies to include this country up to these later days have generally used barter or trade systems. You have heard of doctors being paid with chickens, right? I also recall my father coming home from revivals with bushels of peas, corn, chickens or other fresh butchered meats. Yes, there was money and other things of value that could be used like money but the bulk of the population didn't operate on those systems.

Now look at the concept, bring to the storehouse the fruits of your labor. I don't know, I can see how money fit in this equation but if you don't then so be it. I'm not concerned or splitting hairs to say did God say only bring dollars but no nickels... Can I only bring wheat but no money? Can I tithe with my time, energy or service? Can I not give if I don't have a farm? What about the dressmaker or the blacksmith?

 

[JustChristian]

You're using a secular (webster's type) dictionary to explain God's word. Tithe was NEVER, NEVER money in the Bible. The ONLY verse about using money was about trading in the tithe for money if it was to far to carry to the festival, THEN turn it back into food products or drink, to enjoy before the Lord.

This is from a Biblical concordance. It's unbelievable how legalistic this topic is. I would expect that goods were used in trade very often instead of hard money which the people of Israel probably had very little of.

OK. I give up. I agree that every Christian is commanded by God in the Bible to give 10% of their crops or animals killed while hunting to God. Hey, that means we all have to go out and buy a gun.

 

[LeBuick]

This is from a Biblical concordance. It's unbelievable how legalistic this topic is. I would expect that goods were used in trade very often instead of hard money which the people of Israel probably had very little of.

And in a lot of places, people still don't to this day ad age...

 

[JerryL]

I, like Luther and other historians, will have no part of the law other than what is written on the heart of men. As Luther would say,

"Now if anyone confronts you with Moses and his commandments, and wants to compel you to keep them, simply answer, "Go to the Jews with your Moses; I am no Jew. Do not entangle me with Moses. If I accept Moses in one respect [Paul tells the Galatians in chapter 5:3], then I am obligated to keep the entire law." For not one little period in Moses pertains to us."

"If Christ had not added, "preach to all creatures," then I would not listen, would not be baptized, just as I now will not listen to Moses because he is given not to me but only to the Jews. This distinction should be noticed, grasped, and taken to heart by those preachers who would teach others; indeed by all Christians, for everything depends entirely upon it.
"God's word, God's word." But my dear fellow, the question is whether it was said to you. God indeed speaks also to angels, wood, fish, birds, animals, and all creatures, but this does not make it pertain to me. I should pay attention to that which applies to me, that which is said to me, in which God admonishes, drives, and requires something of me. …"

"Enough has now been said of this, and it is to be noted well for it is really CRUCIAL. Many great and outstanding people have missed it, while even today many great preachers still stumble over it. They do not know how to preach Moses, nor how properly to regard his books. They are absurd as they rage and fume, chattering to people, "God's word, God's word!" All the while they mislead the poor people and drive them to destruction. Many learned men have not known how far Moses ought to be taught. Origen, Jerome, and others like them, have not shown clearly how far Moses can really serve us."


How true and timeless this message still seems today.