predestination

[annsni]

Since only those with faith in Christ are chosen for salvation, to man it is the decision.

So it is man's will that he's saved and God then chooses those who have faith in Christ to be saved?

God did neither. He exists in all times at the same time, hence "I Am". I believe the very phrase "predestination" is an anthropomorphism.

Can you show me that "predestination" is an anthropomorphism? I've never heard it termed that (and yes I know what anthropomorphism means).

 

[historyb]

God chooses who He will, His method of choice is His. Man can never choose God, man is a slave to sin only when God chooses man can man come to God and everyone God chooses will always come to Him.

 

[webdog]

So it is man's will that he's saved and God then chooses those who have faith in Christ to be saved?



Can you show me that "predestination" is an anthropomorphism? I've never heard it termed that (and yes I know what anthropomorphism means).

I never said it is man's will that he is saved. Salvation is from the Lord, and He has given us the requirements for who He decides to sovereignly save.

Anything with the prefix "pre" or "fore" is wrapped in time. God is not bound by time, and the only way to be truly omnipresent is to be omnitemporal as well. God exists in all places in all times at the same time. There is no "pre" or "fore" with an omnipresent being.

 

[historyb]

pre refers to us not God

 

[webdog]

pre refers to us not God

We predestine ourselves

 

[historyb]

No God does, but you were eluding to time which has to do with us. God predestines us, but that does not mean He is constrained by time

 

[webdog]

No God does, but you were eluding to time which has to do with us. God predestines us, but that does not mean He is constrained by time

So if God does, predestination does refer to God, or at least how we view God. That is an anthropomorphism. How is something done "before" the creation of time?

 

[historyb]

God can do what He wants, He has chosen from before time begin

 

[webdog]

God can do what He wants, He has chosen from before time begin

See my other reply in the other thread.

 

[Robert Snow]

God can do what He wants, He has chosen from before time begin

Yes, God has chosen those who will believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ! They are the elect.

 

[annsni]

Yes, God has chosen those who will believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ! They are the elect.

Are you saying that God will choose who will believe (His choice, our response)

or

that those who will believe, God will choose? (our choice, God's response)

??

 

[canadyjd]

So if God does, predestination does refer to God, or at least how we view God. That is an anthropomorphism. How is something done "before" the creation of time?

My understanding of anthropomorphism is applying human characteristics to God.

For instance, if scripture says God reached out His right hand and struck down someone. "His right hand" is an anthropomorphism, a human characteristic

Predestination is an activity. If I remember correctly, the word means "to mark out or set apart beforehand" and may deal with setting boundary stones for a building project.

Either way, predestination means God set a specific person(s) apart beforehand (before the foundation of the world) for a specific purpose....to be His own posession.

I do not believe the word refers to a general predestination of any who would believe, because then they aren't really marked out "beforehand"... they would be marked out/set apart afterward...after they believed.

That has God responding to what man does in His choice. That is contrary to the meaning of the word.

peace to youraying:

 

[Victorious]

I was saved for many years before the Holy Spirit revealed the Doctorine of Sovereignty,Election, Grace or whatever you choose to label it to me. The most amazing thing about it was I could not understand how for so many years that I had read the scripture and repeated called, chosen,elect and even the ones my father has given me Jn 17:9 and not know the meaning and how many times it is referred to in both the OT and the NT. But the most blessed thing of all is that there will be people in Heaven of both Armenian and Calvinist Persuation and a whole bunch who don,t know the difference.

I agree with you completely, and that's exactly how I felt when a very famous Calvinist teacher challenged my free will, evangelical understanding. I was bound and determined to prove him wrong and I studied...and studied...and studied...until a year later, I conceded that everywhere I looked, GOD'S CHOICE of His children was clear. I finally understood the depths of His sovereignty also. However, I also agree that you will find both Arminians and Calvinists dining at the marriage supper. I married a semi-Arminian (who is beginning to change his mind. :saint:

 

[EdSutton]

I'm still not sure if I chose to become a Calvinist, or predestined to become an Arminian?

Consider that, taken to the logical ends, there is no difference between the two systems of theology!

Ed

 

[Crabtownboy]

As in God chose who will be saved and who wont. He chose us to be Christian .

Would any parent decide before a child is born that, "I'll treat this child terribly and the next child I will treat very well?"

Is there a difference between fore knowledgeand fore ordained?

 

[annsni]

Would any parent decide before a child is born that, "I'll treat this child terribly and the next child I will treat very well?"

Is there a difference between fore knowledgeand fore ordained?

Romans 9:11-13 "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.""

 

[webdog]

My understanding of anthropomorphism is applying human characteristics to God.

For instance, if scripture says God reached out His right hand and struck down someone. "His right hand" is an anthropomorphism, a human characteristic

Predestination is an activity. If I remember correctly, the word means "to mark out or set apart beforehand" and may deal with setting boundary stones for a building project.

Either way, predestination means God set a specific person(s) apart beforehand (before the foundation of the world) for a specific purpose....to be His own posession.

I do not believe the word refers to a general predestination of any who would believe, because then they aren't really marked out "beforehand"... they would be marked out/set apart afterward...after they believed.

That has God responding to what man does in His choice. That is contrary to the meaning of the word.

peace to youraying:

To the above bolded...when we apply time language to an eternal and omipresent God (I Am), that in itself is anthropomorphism.

 

[annsni]

To the above bolded...when we apply time language to an eternal and omipresent God (I Am), that in itself is anthropomorphism.

I don't think that fits in the definition of anthropomorphism:

The attributing of human characteristics and purposes to inanimate objects, animals, plants, or other natural phenomena, or to God. To describe a rushing river as “angry” is to anthropomorphize it.
from Dictionary.com

It's speaking of characteristics and purposes - not things like time.

 

[Me4Him]

Romans 9:11-13 "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.""

Jesus died to "TAKE AWAY" (fulfil) the "LAW" of "Death for sin" (wages of sin) and his death covered "ALL" the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD" that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved.

Jesus death "DID NOT" take away "SINS", Jesus's death "DID NOT" save a single person, but it did make it possible that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved, because of the "LAW".


So what is this "MIGHT BE" that God/Jesus "DID NOT" finish at the Cross and "MUST BE" fulfilled before the sin is actually "Taken away" and the "whole world" saved???


If God grace is defined as "predestination", then the work on the cross to saved to whole world was finished, nothing else is required, no sin exist, no one will perish. :tonofbricks:



Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ "MIGHT BE" given to them that believe.

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:




You can't correctly interpret any verse in scripture unless it's in context with the whole scripture,

God/Jesus has done everything they can, or will do, to save the whole world, if any perish, it's not God/Jesus will, certainly not because God/Jesus didn't provide them the same opportunity that they "MIGHT BE" saved as everyone else.


God predestined even "ONE" to hell, denies that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world that this "ONE".... "MIGHT BE SAVED".

Jesus took away the "LAW", the sin isn't taken away until the person believes/confess/repent, then and only then is the "Righteousness of Jesus" (died for sins) imputed to the person.

"UNBELIEF", "DISOBEDIENCE", are the only reasons found in scripture that cause people to perish,

God's "foreknowledge" can not, and does not, constitute God "predestine" even "ONE" to perish,

else you pit God against Jesus dying that they might be saved.

 

[webdog]

I don't think that fits in the definition of anthropomorphism:

The attributing of human characteristics and purposes to inanimate objects, animals, plants, or other natural phenomena, or to God. To describe a rushing river as “angry” is to anthropomorphize it.
from Dictionary.com

It's speaking of characteristics and purposes - not things like time.

Dealing and perception within and outside of time encompasses the entire definition.