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predestination

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Benjamin

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Are you saying that God will choose who will believe (His choice, our response)

or

that those who will believe, God will choose? (our choice, God's response)

??

Are you asking whether that God will per-determine who will believe (His cause and effect, our response)

or

that those who will believe, God will pre-determine? (our cause and effect, God's response)

??

OR...


Are you saying that God will choose who will believe (His choice, our response)

or

that those who will believe, God will pre-determine? (our choice, God's response)

??

OR...

Are you saying that God will choose who will believe (His influence, our response)

or

that those who will believe, God will choose? (our effect, God's cause)

??


:confused:;)
 
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annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Are you asking whether that God will per-determine who will believe (His cause and effect, our response)

or

that those who will believe, God will pre-determine? (our cause and effect, God's response)

??

OR...


Are you saying that God will choose who will believe (His choice, our response)

or

that those who will believe, God will pre-determine? (our choice, God's response)

??

OR...

Are you saying that God will choose who will believe (His influence, our response)

or

that those who will believe, God will choose? (our effect, God's cause)

??


:confused:;)

LOL - I asked first! :tongue3:
 

zrs6v4

Member
I was thinking about something and it crossed my mind that every time Jesus speaks about Christians He says the words elect and chosen. Even the apostles used the word elect in instances. So my question is Do you think God chose us first or did we choose God? Does that mean God knows already who will go to heaven and some are destined not to? I hope i get a answer to this cause it is quiet confusing.

Well here are some scriptures for you to sit, pray about, and carefully seek what the truth and context is. God Bless

1. Proverbs 16:4
2. Exodus 7:1-5
3. John 13:18
4. Romans 8:28-32
5. Jude 1:3-4
6. 1 Peter 1:1-2
7. II Thessalonians 2:13-15
8. Ephesians 1:1-14
9. Romans 9:6-25
10. Mark 13:20
11. Revelation 13:8
12. Revelation 17:8
13. 1 Corinthians 1:20-31
14. 2 Timothy 1:9
15. Exodus 33:19
16. Deuteronomy 7:6-9
17. Deuteronomy 14:2
18. Acts 13:48
19. Acts 16:14-15
20. John 6:37-39
21. John 6:44
22. John 6:63-65
23. John 10:1-30
24. John 17:2
25. Nehemiah 9:7
26. Joshua 24:2-3
27. Ezekiel 20:5
28. Exodus 19:4
29. Deuteronomy 4:37-39
30. Exodus 4:22-23
31. Hosea 11:1-
32. Deuteronomy 10:14-15
33. Matt. 3:9
34. Luke 1:15
35. Luke 10:21-22
36. Romans 4:6-8
37. Col. 2:13
38. Eph 2:1-10
39. Isaiah 40:5
40. Isaiah 43:10
41. Jeremiah 1:5
42. Psalm 14:1-3
 
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Me4Him

New Member
I believe the latter.

I agree.

The "free gift" is to "All Men", which confirms God not willing any perish.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Many Calvinist believe God must give a person the "faith to believe", before they will believe, but it is the person's faith that completes the plan of salvation. (saved)

If Faith was a gift from God, then God would be "obligated" to give it to "ALL", just as Jesus took away the Law for all.

Any "willingness" on God's part to withhold faith from some would result in them perishing because of God's "will".

Every verse in scripture must be interpreted within the context of "Jesus dying that the whole world might be saved because God isn't willing for "ANY" to perish.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
If Faith was a gift from God, then God would be "obligated" to give it to "ALL", just as Jesus took away the Law for all.
God is not "obligated" to do anything for any person.

And since scripture clearly says that faith is a gift of God, there is no "if" about it.
Every verse in scripture must be interpreted within the context of "Jesus dying that the whole world might be saved because God isn't willing for "ANY" to perish.
No, it doesn't. You can't just ignore what you don't agree with and expect to understand scripture.

peace to you:praying:
 

Jim1999

<img src =/Jim1999.jpg>
No theological doctrine is established on one verse of scripture.

Yes context is vital to understand a verse, but theological doctrine requires the whole, with the New Testament explaining the Old.

Cheers,

Jim
 

Me4Him

New Member
God is not "obligated" to do anything for any person.

Anything God said he will do/not do, God is "OBLIGATED" to "keep his words".

And one of those "obligations" God keeps is that not any would perish because of "God's WILL".

And since scripture clearly says that faith is a gift of God, there is no "if" about it.No, it doesn't. You can't just ignore what you don't agree with and expect to understand scripture.

peace to you:praying:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Just what is the gift given here, "salvation", (saved) and it's given through (because of) "FAITH", and if there is no faith, there is no "Grace".

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The gift of God is eternal life, not "Faith".

If God's will prevents any person from being saved by withholding any part of the plan of salvation causing them to perish, then God lied.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is...... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Heb 6:18 in which it was impossible for God to lie,

Jesus invited Israel to the "lamb's marriage supper", they turned down his offer,

Jesus said the reason was that they "closed their eyes/ears", didn't believe Jesus.

Jesus said "I WOULD" take them under my wings, but "YOU WOULD NOT".

Why would you think the plan of salvation is any different today, the offer still stands to the whole world, and like Israel, people still have a "CHOICE" to believe or not believe.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Bible says that God wills to save everyone

Another objection to the doctrine of election is that it contradicts certain passages of Scripture that say that God wills for all to be saved. Paul writes of God our Savior, "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4). And Peter says, "The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should teach repentance" (2 peter 3:9). Do not these passages contradict the idea that God has only chosen certain people to be saved?
One common to the solution to this question (from the Reformed perspective advocated in this book) is to say that these verses speak of God's revealed will (telling us what we should do), not his hidden will (his eternal plans for what will happen) The verses simply tell us that God invites and commands every person to repent and come to Christ for salvation, but they do not tell us anything about God's secret decrees regarding who will be saved.
The Arminian theologian Clark Pinnock objects to the idea that God has a secret and a revealed will - he calls it "the exceedingly paradoxical notion of two divine wills regarding salvation" [Clark Pinnock, "Introduction," in Grace Unlimited, p. 13]. but Pinnock never really answers the question of why all are not saved (from an Arminian perspective). Ultimately Arminians also must say that God wills something more strongly than he wills the salvation of all people, for in fact all are not saved. Arminians claim that the reason why all are not saved is that God wills to preserve the free will of man more than he wills to save everyone. But is this not also making a distinction in two aspects of the will of God? On the one hand God wills that all be saved (1 Tim. 2:5-6; 2 Peter 3:9). But on the other hand he wills to preserve man's absolutely free choice. In fact, he wills the second thing more than the first. But this means that Arminians also must say that 1 Timothy 2:5-6 and 2 Peter 3:9 do not say that God wills the salvation of everyone in an absolute or unqualified way - they too must say that the verses only refer to one kind or one aspect of God's will.
Here the difference betwen the Reformed and the Arminian conception of God's will is clearly seen. Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that God's commands in Scripture reveal to us what he wants us to do, and both agree that the commands in Scripture invite us to repent and trust in Christ for salvation. Therefore, in one sense both agree that God wills that we will be saved - it is the will that he reveals to us explicitly in the gospel invitation.
But both sides must also say that there is something else that God deems more important than saving everyone. Reformed theologians say that God deems his own glory more important than saving everyone, and that (according to Romans 9) God's glory is also furthered by the fact that some are not saved. Arminian theologians also say that something else is more important to God than the salvation of all people, namely, the preservation of man's free will. So in a Reformed system God's highest value is his own glory, and in an Arminian system God's highest value is the free will of man. These are two distincly different conceptions of the nature of God, and it seems that the Reformed position has much more explicit biblical support than the Arminian position does on this question. (*)

* See chapter 15, pp. 271-73, and chapter 21, pp. 440-41, on the fact that God created us and the whole universe for his own glory. An Arminian may object to putting the difference this way, and may say that God is more glorified when we choose him out of an absolutely free will, but this is simply a doubtful assumption based on intuition or human analogy, and has no specific support from Scripture. Moreover, to be consistent it seems the Arminian would also have to take account of the millions who do not choose God, and would have to say that God is also more glorified by the free choices of the millions who freely decide against God - otherwise, why would God allow them to persist in this free choice of rebellion?

From Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, p. 683-84
 

annsni

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Anything God said he will do/not do, God is "OBLIGATED" to "keep his words".

And one of those "obligations" God keeps is that not any would perish because of "God's WILL".



Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Just what is the gift given here, "salvation", (saved) and it's given through (because of) "FAITH", and if there is no faith, there is no "Grace".

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The gift of God is eternal life, not "Faith".

If God's will prevents any person from being saved by withholding any part of the plan of salvation causing them to perish, then God lied.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is...... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Heb 6:18 in which it was impossible for God to lie,

Jesus invited Israel to the "lamb's marriage supper", they turned down his offer,

Jesus said the reason was that they "closed their eyes/ears", didn't believe Jesus.

Jesus said "I WOULD" take them under my wings, but "YOU WOULD NOT".

Why would you think the plan of salvation is any different today, the offer still stands to the whole world, and like Israel, people still have a "CHOICE" to believe or not believe.

I wrote an excerpt from a book above but if God wills that none would perish, why do they?
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Are you saying that God will choose who will believe (His choice, our response)

or

that those who will believe, God will choose? (our choice, God's response)

??

God chose some to salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:3-6]. These he will regenerate and impart to them saving faith. [Ephesians 2:1-8]
 
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webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
God chose some to salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:3-6]. These he will regenerate and impart to them saving faith. [Ephesians 2:1-8]
If they are "in" Jesus Christ, they have already had faith.
 

Me4Him

New Member
I wrote an excerpt from a book above but if God wills that none would perish, why do they?

"UNBELEIF" is why people perish.

"unbelief" also translate into "disobedience", "God calls", but they reject the calling.

Faith is a willingness to obey for no other reason than "faith", and it's this "HUMBLENESS" that God looks for in a person, God won't save a person full of "PRIDE".

Disobedience/Pride/Unbelief are all characteristic of the "body of sin" (flesh) which can never change.

Obedience/Humbleness/Faith is willing to crucify the "body of sin" because of it's sin, (confess/repent)

these are the people God choses to save and the "reason" they are chosen and the others are not.

God's will is that none perish, but man's will trumps God will, because men do perish in spite of God's will.


If "Faith" had to be provided by God/Jesus, it too would have been included that the whole world "WOULD BE" saved, instead of "MIGHT BE" saved.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise (Salvation) by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (Grace)

Lu 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith?

When you say God provides the "Faith", it's evidence you don't understand the role faith plays in the plan of salvation.

P.S. there is no "Hidden will" of God, except to those who are in "DARKNESS".

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
 
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Me4Him

New Member
God chose some to salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:3-6]. These he will regenerate and impart to them saving faith. [Ephesians 2:1-8]

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

chosen us in him, predestinated the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.

I see an outline of how God predestinated/chosen to adopt some children through Jesus, but I don't see any limitations on the number of Children he could adopt, or who would/wouldn't be adopted.
 

Rippon

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God's will is that none perish, but man's will trumps God will, because men do perish in spite of God's will.

Please drop this heretical and blasphemous stuff. Your posts sound more and more like skypair's.
 

webdog

Active Member
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Please drop this heretical and blasphemous stuff. Your posts sound more and more like skypair's.
Does your will override God's when you sin, since Scripture is very clear it is God's will that we do not sin?
 

Rippon

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I see an outline of how God predestinated/chosen to adopt some children through Jesus, but I don't see any limitations on the number of Children he could adopt, or who would/wouldn't be adopted.

You contradict yourself. On the one hand you seem to recognize that God has predestinated/chosen "some children", then in your very next words you say you don't see any limitations on the number of children He adopts.You generally espouse the latter.But it's interesting that you acknowledge (in moments of lucidity) the former.

The Lord has chosen some. He has not chosen all. That's the thing about the word chosen. It is selective.The Lord is under no obligation to predestine each and every person head-for-head.He is merciful to the ones He wants to be. And He hardens others. It's His sovereign choice to do whatever pleases Him. Don't talk back to God in the matter.
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
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Does your will override God's when you sin, since Scripture is very clear it is God's will that we do not sin?

O, so you want to join MFH's heterodox group? You want to champion the completely unorthodox position that the will of man overrides God's will? You're going to have to remove a lot of passages from the Bible to maintain your stance. Your Bible will look like Thomas Jefferson's in the process. You better rethink your view. Ask the Lord's pardon while you're at it.
 

Me4Him

New Member
You contradict yourself. On the one hand you seem to recognize that God has predestinated/chosen "some children", then in your very next words you say you don't see any limitations on the number of children He adopts.You generally espouse the latter.But it's interesting that you acknowledge (in moments of lucidity) the former.

The Lord has chosen some. He has not chosen all. That's the thing about the word chosen. It is selective.The Lord is under no obligation to predestine each and every person head-for-head.He is merciful to the ones He wants to be. And He hardens others. It's His sovereign choice to do whatever pleases Him. Don't talk back to God in the matter.


I suppose Jesus's death for the sins of the "whole world" that they "MIGHT BE" saved was a "WORTHLESS" effort on his part because God didn't have the "WILL" to save the "whole world"??? :tonofbricks:
 
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