A question about Calvinism

[webdog]

So back up and read the whole verse (Psalm 51:5) Then get your strongs out and tell me what you think he means there.

The word shapen can mean to be born or brought forth. David was born or brought forth in iniquity.

This passag is about much more than conception. It is about what was conceived (a sinner).

First off, David used much poetic language and much hyperbole in the Psalms. Second, I believe he was using hyperbole here, and if not, he was saying he was brought forth into a world of sin. Fast forward a few chapters (to 58) and you have him saying upon birth he was a sinner...so which is it...at conception, or 9 months later?

 

[Revmitchell]

First off, David used much poetic language and much hyperbole in the Psalms. Second, I believe he was using hyperbole here, and if not, he was saying he was brought forth into a world of sin. Fast forward a few chapters (to 58) and you have him saying upon birth he was a sinner...so which is it...at conception, or 9 months later?

Both can be and are true at the same time. No contradiction there.

 

[Me4Him]

So, let's say a child is born and does not ever commit sin in his lifetime. He dies at 60 years old. Does he go to heaven because he never committed sin?

Yes, if you never violate the law, you'll go to heaven, "BUT",

Somewhere all the way a sin will be committed, one sin, any sin, even just an "evil thought" running through your mind makes you a sinners.

Not saying we won't, but if that one sin was the only one we committed in a lifetime, we'd be as guilty as the one who broke all the laws.

"Totally depravity" implies that we are "incapable" of "ANY" moral righteousness, being honest, not lying etc,

Of course if you can chose to obey one, you can chose to obey all, but that one sin still hangs over your head, and the gospel tell us that "FAITH" in Jesus is the only way that one sin, or any others, can be taken away.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

God didn't reject the "Apple of his eye", Israel rejected God, (Jesus)

Jesus statement "I would, you wouldn't" holds true for the whole world,

"WHOSOEVER WILL", "I WILL".

Under the doctrine of "predestination", nothing occurs except by "Sovereign will",

If Israel was "predestine" to reject Jesus, then Jesus's offer to Israel was against the "predestine will of God", because they were predestine to reject him,

and Jesus accusing them of closing their eyes/ears as being the reason he couldn't heal them was "NOT TRUE".

People are "FREE" to believe anything they chose, the reason there are 9000 different "religions/doctrines", even among "Christians",

This debate proves that, but believing the "RIGHT ONE" is why God saves people.

De 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain,

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst;

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[webdog]

Both can be and are true at the same time. No contradiction there.

No they cannot be if we are to take this literally.

 

[OldRegular]

So, let's say a child is born and does not ever commit sin in his lifetime. He dies at 60 years old. Does he go to heaven because he never committed sin?

I don't think so!

Romans 3:20 tells us:

Therefore by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the deeds of the law is the knowledge of sin.

Hebrews 7:19 tells us:

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto GOD.

 

[OldRegular]

There's something "missing" that God/Jesus did not provide to complete the plan of salvation.

2. A "Personal Faith/Belief" in Jesus is the "missing" component that will "COMBINE" with the work of Jesus to produce,

Here we see the arrogance of those who believe that salvation is the result of their "good work", that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was inadequate. Me4Him had to finish the work of Jesus Christ.

 

[Me4Him]

Here we see the arrogance of those who believe that salvation is the result of their "good work", that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was inadequate. Me4Him had to finish the work of Jesus Christ.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Why did Jesus death only bring man to the point that man "MIGHT BE" saved,

What "prevented" it from being "will be" saved???

"FAITH" is not a "WORKS".

 

[historyb]

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Why did Jesus death only bring man to the point that man "MIGHT BE" saved,

What "prevented" it from being "will be" saved???

"FAITH" is not a "WORKS".

If God chooses them they will be saved, that is what prevented from will be. There is nothing any man can do to be saved it is all God, not man

 

[Amy.G]

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Why does God command all men to repent if not all are capable?

 

[OldRegular]

"FAITH" is not a "WORKS".

Faith, given to regenerate man by GOD through which he believes, is not a work since it is a gift of GOD. However, faith as you define it, is a work because it you say it originates with you.

 

[Me4Him]

If God chooses them they will be saved, that is what prevented from will be. There is nothing any man can do to be saved it is all God, not man

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is........not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,

Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth "UNTO" righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Faith, given to regenerate man by GOD through which he believes, is not a work since it is a gift of GOD. However, faith as you define it, is a work because it you say it originates with you.

Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.





In debating with those who believe in "predestination", I've noticed they all have one thing in common,

They either don't know that much scripture, "OR"

they don't understand how verses are woven together to teach one doctrine, a "precept upon precept", here a little, there a little".

Verses are most often quoted out of context with the other scriptures, and some are even "ignored" in defense of predestination.


I get the idea their view of scripture is the same as mine looking at a "backlass" on a fishing reel,

Shore is a "tangled up mess". :laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Tom Butler]

Me4Him, Good job on those scriptures. I agree with every one of them.

I especially liked Romans 5:18
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If I understand your point, Jesus' righteousness has assured the justification of all men. This is certainly consistent with your view that all always means everybody without exception.

Or did you have something else in mind?

 

[annsni]

Yes, if you never violate the law, you'll go to heaven, "BUT",

So "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved" is wrong? We're able to work our way to heaven according to your theology.

 

[OldRegular]

Me4Him, Good job on those scriptures. I agree with every one of them.

I especially liked Romans 5:18
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If I understand your point, Jesus' righteousness has assured the justification of all men. This is certainly consistent with your view that all always means everybody without exception.

Or did you have something else in mind?

Then you are saying that all men will be saved when you say: "If I understand your point, Jesus' righteousness has assured the justification of all men."???

 

[OldRegular]

Me4Him, Good job on those scriptures. I agree with every one of them.

I especially liked Romans 5:18
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If I understand your point, Jesus' righteousness has assured the justification of all men. This is certainly consistent with your view that all always means everybody without exception.

Or did you have something else in mind?

Then you are saying, with Me4Him, that all men will be saved when you say: "If I understand your point, Jesus' righteousness has assured the justification of all men."??? Or are you questioning Me4Him?

 

[webdog]

Me4Him, Good job on those scriptures. I agree with every one of them.

I especially liked Romans 5:18
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If I understand your point, Jesus' righteousness has assured the justification of all men. This is certainly consistent with your view that all always means everybody without exception.

Or did you have something else in mind?

You misinterpret what the verse is actually saying. It is saying through one man (Adam) sin came upon everyone, and in Christ justification is given to everyone...the key being "in Christ". To be "in Adam" is to sin, to be "in Christ" is to have faith in His finished work.

 

[Amy.G]

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Why does God command all men to repent if not all are capable?

Anyone?

Am I on ignore?

 

[Tom Butler]

Me4Him, Good job on those scriptures. I agree with every one of them.

I especially liked Romans 5:18
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If I understand your point, Jesus' righteousness has assured the justification of all men. This is certainly consistent with your view that all always means everybody without exception.

Or did you have something else in mind?

I have to apologize. I mistakenly thought my tongue-in-cheek post would be spotted for what it was. It would have been better had I just avoided the sarcasm.

Here's the point. "All men" either means every person without exception, or it doesn't. If the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life, then it either means all men without exception received the free gift, salvation, or it doesn't. I can't imagine anyone here advocating universal salvation. So what does "all men" mean here?

Webdog gave it a good shot:

and in Christ justification is given to everyone...the key being "in Christ". To be "in Adam" is to sin, to be "in Christ" is to have faith in His finished work.

If by saying "in Christ justification is given to everyone," one means that everyone who is in Christ is justified, then i agree. But Me4Him did not advocate that. He used the scripture passage to buttress his argument that "all men" means everybody. I was simply pointing out that in that passage, "all men" does not and cannot mean all without exception. And, therefore, one should be careful in citing such scriptures to examine the context, and measure it against other clear scriptures.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Anyone?

Am I on ignore?

I haven't read the whole thread so I'm not sure what your replying to. However, to answer your question my guess would be the second one.

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

See you're not being ignored. Though I most likely am.

 

[Amy.G]

I haven't read the whole thread so I'm not sure what your replying to. However, to answer your question my guess would be the second one.



See you're not being ignored. Though I most likely am.

Thanks.

My point is that Calvinists say that "all" men can't repent or believe, but only those whom God has chosen and has regenerated. Yet the bible clearly says that God commands "all" men "everywhere" to repent. This is a universal command. Does God require repentance from those who cannot possibly repent because they have not been "chosen" and regenerated? I don't think so. God has given every man a measure of faith which is to be exercised toward God. To say that only the regenerate can repent or have faith is against biblical teaching IMO. Although, no one can come to God without His drawing, the bible teaches that He has called everyone to repentance, so that those who find themselves in hell will be there because they chose not to repent and believe, not because God passed them over.