Are the five points Biblical or man made?

[Rippon]

God states He reveals these truths to men and they are the same truths that the Holy Spirit has been sent forth to reveal to men - Sin, His righteousness (who He is), and Judgment to come. Therefore these particular truths evidenced here in Romans 1:18- are spiritual truths that no man can come to unless it be given him by God to understand.

The truths which are evident to those without the gospel in Romans 1:18-32 are not salvific truths. In addition all of these people reject those truths. Read that section over again and see for yourself.

However these, as you stated, are some of the light/truths and if they are received God will give/bring more.

That is pure speculation on your part -- that's not in Holy Writ.

It is only God who knows when a man comes to this point and is why the scriptures states that God then gives them over to..[their sins]. Yet in that 'giving over' we must acknowledge that God was at work in their lives, He was revealing truth to them, and then at their rejection He leaves them be.

There are no exceptions. Everyone exposed to the truths which are evident to their senses are rejected. All have/will be given over to their base desires.

 

[Rippon]

No one goes to heaven except through Jesus, law or no law, so how God judges these people according to law, and without knowledge of Jesus,

I won't even venture a guess. :BangHead: :laugh:

No guessing is necessary. Everyone will perish -- be eternally condemned, without the benefit of hearing of the Gospel of Christ. And of course many who have/shall hear(d) the Gospel of Christ stand condemned because the Lord has not drawn them to Himself -- they are not elect.

 

[Allan]

The truths which are evident to those without the gospel in Romans 1:18-32 are not salvific truths.

Who said they were??

In addition all of these people reject those truths. Read that section over again and see for yourself.

Of course they did, that was a point Paul was making with respect to those who He was dealing and revealing who had rejected these truths. Just as the next chapter speaks about the conscience and so on and so forth so that those who reject these truths are known to be without excuse.

That is pure speculation on your part -- that's not in Holy Writ.

Well it is more than just me and it crosses over the theological divides even with respect to the Cals and Non-Cals. So I am not alone in this view

There are no exceptions.

It seems scripture differs from your view however you are welcome to your opinions :thumbs:

 

[Tom Butler]

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

I'm not going to attempt to explain how God is going to judge the people who don't have the law,

I do know where there is no law, sin is not imputed, but these verses "Imply" that all people have a basic knowledge of "good/evil", written on the heart, which is what Satan told Adam Eve they would know good/evil.

No one goes to heaven except through Jesus, law or no law, so how God judges these people according to law, and without knowledge of Jesus,

I won't even venture a guess. :BangHead: :laugh:

I think the answer is found in the Romans passage you quoted. Since they are a law unto themselves, they will be judged against their own moral code. The law is written on their hearts--that is, the law of right and wrong. Their problem is that they, because they are sinners by nature, cannot even keep their own moral code perfectly (just like believers who know Christ and his commands). Believers will answer the same accusation by appealing to the merits of the Christ and his death on the cross. Those who have never heard the gospel will have to admit they willingly broke their own law. That will be the basis of their judgment.

 

[Tom Butler]

One other thought. Those who have never heard the gospel cannot use the excuse that they were not elect. They will have to acknowledge that they sinned, and sinned willfully, thus are guilty and without excuse.

At the same time, we who are believers should not brag about being the elect. We're without excuse, too. Our answer is to appeal to the merits of Jesus.

 

[Amy.G]

Allan: However these, as you stated, are some of the light/truths and if they are received God will give/bring more.

Rippon: That is pure speculation on your part -- that's not in Holy Writ.

Rippon, it is in scripture. Jesus spoke to the Jews of this very thing.

Mark 4
24And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.


The Jews had no excuse for rejecting their Messiah. They had the Law, the Prophets, and scripture, plus the revelation that Paul describes (the creation and the conscience). Jesus said that if they refused to believe what they had already been given, God would not reveal any more and even what they had would be taken away ("their foolish hearts were darkened").

This is the consequence of not having ears to hear.

 

[Me4Him]

No guessing is necessary. Everyone will perish -- be eternally condemned, without the benefit of hearing of the Gospel of Christ. And of course many who have/shall hear(d) the Gospel of Christ stand condemned because the Lord has not drawn them to Himself -- they are not elect.

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam/Eve knew their act was sin, God had give them the law, "Don't eat",

From Adam to Moses, they never had the OT laws, so their sin wasn't "after the same similitude of Adam's sin", being ignorant of the law.

When Jesus was crucified, he went an preached to "dead souls" the same as he preached to people alive.

These people had a chance after death, today we don't.

It's clear, God made provisions for these people from Adam to Moses that took into account their knowledge of God/law,

so, evidently, it figures into their Judgment as well, but the point is, things changed when the law came, and when Jesus came.

 

[RAdam]

Have you ever considered taking that passage from Romans 2 where those gentiles, who had not the law, yet were performing the things contained in the law, showing the work of the law written in their hearts and then comparing it to Jeremiah 31 where God said He would write His laws in the hearts of His people? Ever notice that?

The light of nature, spoken about in Romans 1, is a dimmer light than the Law of Moses, which itself is a dimmer light than the Gospel. What does the light of nature show? Well, it shows there is a great God in heaven which must be all powerful since He created everything. He must be eternal since He maintains everything. He must love order and law since nature is ordered and ruled by laws. He must be a good God since He feedeth the birds yet they neither reap nor sow, neither gather into barns. But, it does not show Jesus Christ, our sin, our need for salvation, etc. There's enough light in nature for man to be held accountable for either denying the existence of God or misrepresenting God as part of the creation.

 

[RAdam]

To say that Jesus went and preached to "dead souls" is a sad twisting of scripture.

When Jesus Christ gave up the ghost on the cross He went back to the Father in heaven. How do we know? He told us over and over again that's where He was going. He didn't go to hell to preach to people there, He didn't go to some intermediate state, or any place other than paradise.

Now, to say that people had a "chance" after they died is really ridiculous, and a complete fabrication to cover for holes in faulty theology. First of all, God isn't in the chance business. He always refers to eternal salvation in scripture as being sure (He shall save His people from their sins). Secondly, if anyone in hell were given a "chance" and decided to stay in eternal torments, they'd be plain old stupid. Finally, when Jesus preached to the lost during His earthly ministry, He never pleaded with them to accept Him. He frankly told some that they were "not of my sheep" and others that they were "of their father the devil" and were "not of God".

 

[Me4Him]

To say that Jesus went and preached to "dead souls" is a sad twisting of scripture.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. (every knee bow)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

I'd say ignorance of the "law", it's application/procedures, is the reason for more "wrong" interpretations of scripture than anything else.

No law/No sin imputed equals nothing to Judge, nor any standards (law) to Judge by, yet every knee will bow, everyone Judged.

and the law doesn't allow the "Judge" to "Arbitrarily chose" whom he wants to be innocent or guilty,

the Judge can only pass sentence as the law dictates the innocent/guilt of the person.

The law is totally useless if the Judge can ignore the law and justify/condemn according to his "predilection",

Not to mention it is also a "violation of law", since it ignores the proper application/procedures of law, what we would call a "Kangaroo court".

Judgment day is going to be a "court of law", not a "Kangaroo court".

 

[RAdam]

When were these spirits in prison preached to? Look at the next text, "which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." They were preached to in the days of Noah. Notice that Peter says that Christ was "quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison." They were preached to by the Spirit. This happened in the days of Noah. How? In his second epistle, Peter will call Noah a preacher of righteousness. Noah was a preacher? Yep. How? Well, he served God when the rest of mankind was in such a sinful condition that God destroyed all but Noah's family. By serving God he preached to the souls that are now (in Peter's day and ours) in prison, yet were not yet so in Noah's day. How does one preach in truth but by the Spirit?

I see in those texts from 1 Peter 4 you highlighted the words "be judged" and "men in the flesh" but left out this: "but live according to God in the spirit." The gospel was preached to them that are dead to this end: that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. How does that teach that Christ went and preached to souls in hell or some intermediate state after his body died on the cross?

Also, as to your other objections, allow me to point out one thing Paul states in Romans 2: "for as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law." But what about those that didn't have the law in written form given unto them? Paul says, they shall still perish. The reason for this text is Paul is telling both Jews and Gentiles that they are both sinners that needed saving by Jesus Christ, and having the law didn't make one less of a sinner than the other.

Now, let me also state that God nowhere ignores His law. Every judgement He makes is according to truth, rightoeusness, and is holy. That is why Christ had to come and stand in the room and stead of His people. Without that, Him taking upon Him the penalty for our sins, we would have to answer to God eternally for our transgressions, and the wages of sin is death.

 

[Me4Him]

I see in those texts from 1 Peter 4 you highlighted the words "be judged" and "men in the flesh" but left out this: "but live according to God in the spirit." The gospel was preached to them that are dead to this end: that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. How does that teach that Christ went and preached to souls in hell or some intermediate state after his body died on the cross?

OT saints were held "captive" by their sins until Jesus fulfilled the law and ,

No one goes to heaven except through Jesus, so how did the OT believers get out of Abraham's bosom and into heaven????

Where do you think those "captivies" Jesus led to heaven when he ascended came from???

Also, as to your other objections, allow me to point out one thing Paul states in Romans 2: "for as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law." But what about those that didn't have the law in written form given unto them? Paul says, they shall still perish. The reason for this text is Paul is telling both Jews and Gentiles that they are both sinners that needed saving by Jesus Christ, and having the law didn't make one less of a sinner than the other.

God said it wasn't his will for any to perish and Jesus fulfilled the law for the sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved,

That being the case, there must be some kind of provisions made for a Judgment as righteous for them as for us,

"Possibly" on what little they did know, a "to him much is given, much is expected" type Judgment.

Now, let me also state that God nowhere ignores His law. Every judgement He makes is according to truth, rightoeusness, and is holy. That is why Christ had to come and stand in the room and stead of His people. Without that, Him taking upon Him the penalty for our sins, we would have to answer to God eternally for our transgressions, and the wages of sin is death.

Right, no place does God violate his own laws, nor will he tell someone "Sorry, you were born in an ignorant time before the law/Jesus, go to hell".

Every knee bowing is every person's Judgment, and every Judgment is a righteous judgment of something about the person.

which is why I won't venture a guess about how God will judge them.

 

[Tom Butler]

Every knee bowing is every person's Judgment, and every Judgment is a righteous judgment of something about the person.

which is why I won't venture a guess about how God will judge them.

But their judgment will not be because they rejected Christ, right? Any thoughts about my guess in posts 124 and 125.

 

[zrs6v4]

The thing about this debate is that it is funny that although I agree with reformed theology, sometimes non-cals seem to be living closer to God. The bible does talk about choosing God's way and leaning on Him and in the process all kinds of things happen, the bible also talks about God being sovereign having planned all events. So in the same time we need to totally set our minds and hearts on God's Spirit we must also know that God must be 100% giving us the grace to walk. So the greater fact is that God is in control of all events and all godly decisions come from God, yes even faith. God doesnt believe for us but calls us in a way that results in belief everytime. We of course dont know or see these secret actions of God until we look back in time and see His work. Therefore we must be 100% involved in walking in faith daily. The grace doctrine seems to me to be the most beautiful and most dangerous doctrine at times for myself and what I see in others. We tend to go hypercalvinistic even though we know its wrong. We take less responsibility and let slack. Calvinism doesnt take away from our responsibility but highlights God's grace, although as I said it can be dangerous. This is why the bible speaks in so many ways regarding God's omnipotence and also human responsibility of choosing the right path. I believe the right way to see it is taking full responsibility with choice and at the same time know your need of God's grace as I said earlier. It is very easy to quit listening and walking with God trying to defend doctrine, but when living by the bible and nose deep into God's word openly we will see that we need to make decisions and other times we will see God's sovereignty. Both are there in the same book. Yet again the greater mystery is God's sovereign ways.

 

[RAdam]

So, if Abraham's bosom was not heaven, as you claim, where was the rich man?

 

[Me4Him]

But their judgment will not be because they rejected Christ, right? Any thoughts about my guess in posts 124 and 125.

I would "THINK" since God made arrangment for the deceased OT people to "hear Jesus", these other people would also have an opportunity to hear him,

God's law is very strict about a person knowing the law and their "RIGHTS",

one reason why no law/no sin imputed, gospel preached to whole world as a witness before the end.

Here again, we're back to the law written on their hearts, but condemned without hearing the gospel/Jesus, would deny them the "RIGHT" that they might be saved that Jesus gave the whole world.

I just glad I don't have to "Render a decision" either way. :BangHead::tonofbricks::laugh:

 

[Rippon]

end.

Here again, we're back to the law written on their hearts, but condemned without hearing the gospel/Jesus, would deny them the "RIGHT" that they might be saved that Jesus gave the whole world.

The Lord is under no such obligation to anyone. The Lord has the right to withhold the Gospel from as many as He so desires. It is His good pleasure to have mercy on some and harden others. The Lord does not answer to some higher authority or law -- He Himself is the just standard.

 

[yshwa4life]

i blogged about this the other day.

i've been debating some 5 point Calvinists lately, being a patriotic conservative Christian American i've always considered myself dogmatically reformed..but my conscience is now held captive to the "whole of scripture". i've been seeing some inconsistency and a whole lot of spiritual snobbery. My opinion? Maybe. i just can't seem to get over all of the places in scripture that talk about our responsibility to yield to Him. It's God that draws by His Spirit and humans who either reject or receive His free gift by faith..that we're corrupt from birth and in desperate need, totally depraved (doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result), devoid of any true knowledge of God and holiness with a will that is bent away from our Creator..but that we're not totally "unable" to respond. They would vehemently disagree.

i even gave them liscense to "check out" my church's website www.newvisiononline.net which they gladly hammered away at and deemed as false, man centered doctrine.

One of my favorite teachers, whom we listen to every night as a family before hitting the sack, James MacDonald from Walk in the Word Ministries was labled as a false teacher..Ravi Zacharias from RZIM as well..i mean c'mon, i'm not that smart.. but with the Spirit living inside of me, i can now discern between truth and error, i'd like to see some of these people hiding behind their internet screen names debate such minds.

i believe in Sola Scriptura no doubt..but we also need the holy Spirit to reveal and interpret the truth.

Claiming to be in one camp or the other is at best unfruitful. i'm a Christian that definitely thinks it a good idea to study up on these two enemies in the faith instead of just parroting what we learned from someone else; but it takes years of study and walking with God to even begin to understand the fullness of the truths pertaining to salvation and having a relationship with the Creator of the universe..and it takes His Spirit to reveal them not Calvin..Arminius or anybody else.

i found this the other day and it made a lot of sense.

http://www.nelsonprice.com/index.php/?p=211

We have a responsibilty to spread the gospel..how can they hear without a preacher? This "treasure in earthen vessels" is what they need. It's our job to preach it. It's the holy Spirit that draws people for sure, but it's through the preaching of the Word and His various ministries here on earth, that are always calling men to repentence. Leaving us without excuse.

Gods gets every bit of credit, when it comes to our salvation.

It's a beautiful type of synergy, He chose to use us (wonder of wonders) as His instruments..His vessels of mercy, to spread the message of the gospel (good news) and pray for the lost. It's Him..working through us..to reach them. All God all the time. Without the Spirits enabling power we just wont get it..any of us; but that doesn't take away from our responsibility.

No mystery there.

Isaiah 52:7 (ASV)

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

 

[Me4Him]

The Lord is under no such obligation to anyone. The Lord has the right to withhold the Gospel from as many as He so desires. It is His good pleasure to have mercy on some and harden others. The Lord does not answer to some higher authority or law -- He Himself is the just standard.

God didn't send Jesus to condemn the world and Jesus died for the sins of the whole world that the whole world MIGHT BE saved, not willing any perish.

"IF" God isn't "TRUE to his words, the neither you, I or anyone else can be "CERTAIN" we'll be resurrected or have eternal life.

The pendulum swings both way.

What's the point in hardening someone who is already on their way to hell,

Why would they have to be harden more before making the trip???

Get off the milk bottle, try eating a little meat of the word. :thumbs:

 

[RAdam]

You keep saying that God is "not willing that any should perish." I've already addressed that text and shown you that in context, Peter is talking about the elect and not every single person in existence.