Pastor Qualifications.

[Jim1999]

It was the KJV. That's where the word "dispensation" appears....... The word!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[TomVols]

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Hmmm. I didn't know that Paul used the Scofield Bible. Do you know which edition it was?

Surely you aren't saying that since the word "dispensation" is in the Bible, then dispensationalism's veracity cannot be critiqued or is somehow bolstered?

 

[DHK]

Surely you aren't saying that since the word "dispensation" is in the Bible, then dispensationalism's veracity cannot be critiqued or is somehow bolstered?

Of course not. The word "covenant" is in the Bible too. I am only pointing out that long before Darby or Scofield the word "dispensation" was used, and in fact the Bible logically divides itself into definite time periods. There may be some disagreement on what those periods of time are, but there are divisions in the Bible. That fact cannot be denied.

 

[pilgrim2009]

Wow … It’s like you are vomiting up a concordance here

There are several issues here:
1. Do you really think that no dispensationalist has ever thought of these verses? That we are somehow stunned by them?
2. Are there any legitimate explanations of these verses from the dispensationalist perspective? Of course there are.

I don’t have time now to go verse by verse. I would encourage you to study, not merely to repeat what others have said. When you look at these passages for what they mean, you will easily see that they don’t demand your interpretation, and in fact, your interpretation depends on starting with your presupposition. Since I don’t start with your presupposition, I have no problem reading these verses as they were originally intended. I don’t have to find some secret hidden meaning in them. The apostles never contradicted the OT, and if you study these passages you will see that.

You say it seems easy enough, and it is. But you are missing it.

Forgive me Pastor Larry if I use someone`s points.I could do no better in making them other than re-wording them.My point is I think Scofields system violates {2nd Peter 1:20}by taking one verse out of context then to build his theology.Nevertheless it is a pleasure looking at these things with you.

God in Jesus bless you.

Steven.

 

[OldRegular]

Of course not. The word "covenant" is in the Bible too. I am only pointing out that long before Darby or Scofield the word "dispensation" was used, and in fact the Bible logically divides itself into definite time periods. There may be some disagreement on what those periods of time are, but there are divisions in the Bible. That fact cannot be denied.

The Bible discusses the various Covenants. Can you say the same about the so-called dispensations.

 

[OldRegular]

How so??????

Read the section in the revision of Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults by Hank Hanegraaff.

 

[pilgrim2009]

The Bible discusses the various Covenants. Can you say the same about the so-called dispensations.

I believe the system of dispensationalism supposes to much.Like the idea of Jesus offering Himself as a King in the Gospels and putting it off to the end of time because He was rejeted.This is Scofields teaching not the Bibles.

Bless you in Jesus.

Steven.

 

[OldRegular]

But that doesn't mean your belief is true. You must separate fact from belief. I can believe that you are an 80 year old crippled woman who lives in Zambia, but that won't make it right.

Again, the question is, "What does the Bible teach?" On that grounds, dispensationalism acquits itself very well.

No, that's not a historical fact. It is true that Darby was instrumental in systematizing it, but the principles of dispensationalism existed long before that.

Again, the issue is hermeneutical. You and your side are willing to do things with the words of Scripture that I cannot in good conscience do. But to pretend that dispensationalism has no basis at all in Scripture is simply wrong. Dispensationalism may be wrong in parts, or in the whole, but there are sound scriptural arguments for it.

BTW, you say you been there/done that in spinning your wheels. If you recall those conversations, the key came down to the way in which we handle the words of Scripture. We disagreed on that, and you were unwilling to defend your position anymore against some of the serious flaws it had. That is certainly fine, and we both have better things to do. But you can't pretend like you actually gave a valid defense of some of the severe exegetical and hermeneutical problems that were brought up.

I really don't recall my inability to give a valid defense of some of the severe exegetical and hermeneutical problems that were brought up. I just thought we reached an impasse and that further discussion was not beneficial. But perhaps your memory is better than that of an 80 year old crippled woman who lives in Zambia!

I do recall starting a thread asking anyone to give a passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews that went unanswered until it was closed.

 

[OldRegular]

It was the KJV. That's where the word "dispensation" appears....... The word!

Cheers,

Jim

Bless you Jim. You do have a way with words!

 

[OldRegular]

I believe the system of dispensationalism supposes to much.Like the idea of Jesus offering Himself as a King in the Gospels and putting it off to the end of time because He was rejeted.This is Scofields teaching not the Bibles.

Bless you in Jesus.

Steven.

Steven

See my response to Pastor Larry above.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I really don't recall my inability to give a valid defense of some of the severe exegetical and hermeneutical problems that were brought up. I just thought we reached an impasse and that further discussion was not beneficial. But perhaps your memory is better than that of an 80 year old crippled woman who lives in Zambia!

It was an impasse for sure, but from my end it was because you weren't giving adequate answer to some important questions.

I do recall starting a thread asking anyone to give a passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews that went unanswered until it was closed.

No, it was answered. You just didn't accept the answer that was given. In the Bible, there is only one kingdom and it was prophesied in the OT and it was an earthly kingdom. When Jesus promised the kingdom, that's the kingdom he was talking about.

But in the end, we have been through that, and I doubt either of us are prepared to change and it really doesn't bother me what position you hold. You won't answer to me for it, and I am glad about that.

Have a good night, brother.

 

[gb93433]

There are some of us who believe that dispensationalism is based on the word of Darby/Scofield not the Bible! It is a historical fact that classic dispensationalism started with Darby and was popularized in this country by the Scofield Bible.

What I also find intersting is that a friend of mine who was a doctoral student at DTS told me that very few of the young professor and students agree with very little of what the former professors taught. For lack of a better word I would call that eveolutionary dispensationalism.

 

[pilgrim2009]

It was an impasse for sure, but from my end it was because you weren't giving adequate answer to some important questions.

No, it was answered. You just didn't accept the answer that was given. In the Bible, there is only one kingdom and it was prophesied in the OT and it was an earthly kingdom. When Jesus promised the kingdom, that's the kingdom he was talking about.

But in the end, we have been through that, and I doubt either of us are prepared to change and it really doesn't bother me what position you hold. You won't answer to me for it, and I am glad about that.

Have a good night, brother.

Lets see:

SCOFIELD note (SRB 1917, 1967) from the Introduction to THE FOUR GOSPELS: "All (gospels) record Christ's offer of Himself as King."

ANSWER: That statement is plainly false. Nowhere does Jesus ever suggest in the faintest way that he is waiting for popular or national approval to establish his kingdom or to be an earthly king. Jn 6:15, "When Jesus perceived that they would come to take him by force to make him a king, he departed..." His offer of the kingdom is the same he made to Nicodemus at the beginning of his ministry, "Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the Kingdom of God," Jn 3:3. Also Jn 3:14-16. Take it and be saved; neglect it and be lost.



God bless in Jesus.

Steven.

 

[OldRegular]

It was an impasse for sure, but from my end it was because you weren't giving adequate answer to some important questions.

No, it was answered. You just didn't accept the answer that was given. In the Bible, there is only one kingdom and it was prophesied in the OT and it was an earthly kingdom. When Jesus promised the kingdom, that's the kingdom he was talking about.

But in the end, we have been through that, and I doubt either of us are prepared to change and it really doesn't bother me what position you hold. You won't answer to me for it, and I am glad about that.

Have a good night, brother.

You are wrong on all counts Pastor Larry especially your remark regarding the offer of an earthly kingdom.

 

[Pastor Larry]

SCOFIELD note (SRB 1917, 1967) from the Introduction to THE FOUR GOSPELS: "All (gospels) record Christ's offer of Himself as King."

If I was a believer in Scofield I would worry about this.

I would encourage you to read Alva McClain, The Greatness of the Kingdom. It is a very clear defense of the biblical kingdom, packed with Scripture to the point that you will quickly tire of looking it up and studying it. It's not an easy read, which is why most won't get through it, but it is thorough, and for the most part very good.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You are wrong on all counts Pastor Larry especially your remark regarding the offer of an earthly kingdom.

This is why it was an impasse. You simply refused to answer. You attempted for a bit, but when the inconsistency was pointed out, you just bailed out with "you're wrong." Well, my friend, that's not a reason. It's not evidence. It doesn't support you.

The truth is that the OT clearly describes a kingdom and it is earthly. Ask David, Solomon, and the like. They ruled over it. It wasn't in heaven, and it wasn't in people's hearts.

Again, this is about how we handle Scripture. You are content to handle in ways that I cannot. But asserting that I'm wrong won't answer any questions. It didn't before, and it won't know.

 

[gb93433]

It was the KJV. That's where the word "dispensation" appears....... The word!

It appears four times in the KJV and each time the same Greek word (oikonomian) is used referring to a stewardship[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]In the KJV the word only exists in the NT.

Jim what has been the impact of dispensationalism in Great Britain?

 

[EdSutton]

Early appearances of the word 'dispensation' IN the Word.

It was the KJV. That's where the word "dispensation" appears....... The word!

Cheers,

Bless you Jim. You do have a way with words!

I certainly won't disagree that Jim1999 has a great way with words, but he is at least a couple of centuries late, here, on the appearance of the word "dispensation" in Scripture, as the WYC and WYC-P rendered the particular word in English, in this manner more than 2 centuries earlier.

The BISH, GEN, and D-R (RHE) did the same, prior to the appearance of the KJV.

And in fact, so did VUL, about 1200 years prior to the KJV.

FTR, although I don't read nor have I ever even studied any Latin, even this old KY farmer (and I make no claim to being any scholar or linguist) can recognize the similarity between "dispensatio" and "dispensationem" in Latin and "dispensation" in English. :thumbs:

Interestingly enough, John Nelson Darby actually renders the word (in the DBY) as "dispensation" fewer times than do any of these other versions.

Ed

 

[OldRegular]

This is why it was an impasse. You simply refused to answer. You attempted for a bit, but when the inconsistency was pointed out, you just bailed out with "you're wrong." Well, my friend, that's not a reason. It's not evidence. It doesn't support you.

The truth is that the OT clearly describes a kingdom and it is earthly. Ask David, Solomon, and the like. They ruled over it. It wasn't in heaven, and it wasn't in people's hearts.

Again, this is about how we handle Scripture. You are content to handle in ways that I cannot. But asserting that I'm wrong won't answer any questions. It didn't before, and it won't know.

I see that, as usual, you have selective memory.

One reason that the Jews rejected Jesus Christ is that he did not offer an earthly kingdom. If you can show me Scripture proving otherwise then do so. No one else on this Forum has.

 

[OldRegular]

I certainly won't disagree that Jim1999 has a great way with words, but he is at least a couple of centuries late, here, on the appearance of the word "dispensation" in Scripture, as the WYC and WYC-P rendered the particular word in English, in this manner more than 2 centuries earlier.

The BISH, GEN, and D-R (RHE) did the same, prior to the appearance of the KJV.

And in fact, so did VUL, about 1200 years prior to the KJV.

FTR, although I don't read nor have I ever even studied any Latin, even this old KY farmer (and I make no claim to being any scholar or linguist) can recognize the similarity between "dispensatio" and "dispensationem" in Latin and "dispensation" in English. :thumbs:

Interestingly enough, John Nelson Darby actually renders the word (in the DBY) as "dispensation" fewer times than do any of these other versions.

Ed

Very interesting but what is significant, as gb93433 pointed out, is that the Greek word translated dispensation actually means stewardship.