A Question

[Havensdad]

First of all, to even ask the question defies certain Scripture as well as logic. He is beyond any sin or character flaw. He does however do whatever pleases Him.

It is not beyond anything, least of all logic. If God shows favoritism to the Jews, because of the fact that they are a Jew, He is a racist. I agree that He has the right to do that if He so wishes, and it would not be sin, for Him. But that is hardly illogical, regardless of how you desire to paint it differently.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:


James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
​

None of this has any bearing on our discussion.

Since God is without sin or character flaw and He created all the races (of one blood BTW), it seems illogical to even ask the question concerning "partiality".

One would think. Yet, for some, they believe that God gives preference according to race: i.e. different rewards to "Jews" than to others. This would be the definition of racism: giving people different rights and privileges based on their ethnicity. God can do this, if He so chooses, but it would not change the fact that it was racism.

So, the simple answer from me is: No.

Excellent. So you deny any distinction between Jew and Gentile then?

The passage from which you may be alluding to is:

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Not at all.

Act 10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,

Note that this was directly addressed to the Jew/Gentile question. "No partiality", not "Partiality in reward, but not in salvation". Just "no partiality whatsoever".

And is in fact, used in Romans 2-3 as the very argument that His choice of the Jews is one based upon a criteria other than racial prejudice.

Then the Gentiles are included as well. Or else, it is STRICTLY because of race, which would mean God is racist. Again, this would not be sinful for God, and would be perfectly within His rights. He can do as He wishes. Yet it does not change the fact that it is racism.

His choices are those which ultimately glorify Him.
On the grass roots level, Israel was brought into being by Him who is without sin for that purpose and not out of any human assessment of prejudice or "partiality".


HankD

And yet, if it is a distinction of rewards and privileges based upon race, it is racism. That is the very definition of racism. There is no way you can change that.

And, FYI "Israel" has ALWAYS included Jew and Non Jew. No racism their, unless you try to force unbiblical definitions on "Israel", such as "Israel is only made up of Jews".

 

[ituttut]

Perhaps the question should be asked: Why are so many people, nations, religions, etc. anti-Semitic? I would like to know the answer.

This is a very good question DHK, and deserves a Biblical answer. I hope this will help for I believe you may find what you seek in verses as we see in Ezekiel 20, and chapter 23, not to mention others. Ezekiel is a contemporary of Daniel, and Jeremiah. In these books we find that God is over all, and is in control of this world and allows what He will allow. As to the Why so many are anti-Semitic, it is the will of God.

We find in Daniel the beginning of the Times of the Gentiles, as we begin in Daniel 1. "In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.
2. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god." Here God turns Israel over to the world for them to do with her as they wish. But we are not to lose sight of God being in control to reclaim Her again unto Himself. When will this mischief, this PayBack time stop? Not until after the tribulation, and no time before. After the end of the Tribulation it is on to the Millennium, and then on into eternity.

His wife became a whore because of her idol worship and he will punish her for deserting Him, going after the riches of this world with it lewdness. She is just as the woman in the Garden. God is a God of Love, but will not be mocked. He is a Jealous God, a God of Wrath, and Hates if any Cross Him, especially those that He has chosen.

While on this subject will be a good time for us to take stock of ourselves. The world faults the Jew, even many in the Christian churches. We too are in danger of being just as guilty as Israel. But praise God for we in the Body of Christ have had all our sins forgiven and are sealed in by that One Baptism by the Holy Spirit, with out the hands of man. This is spiritual In Him, but not our Bodies, yet. However this does not mean we will not be punished here on this earth, and loose awards as we stand before Him.

 

[HankD]

It is not beyond anything, least of all logic. If God shows favoritism to the Jews, because of the fact that they are a Jew, He is a racist. I agree that He has the right to do that if He so wishes, and it would not be sin, for Him. But that is hardly illogical, regardless of how you desire to paint it differently.




None of this has any bearing on our discussion.



One would think. Yet, for some, they believe that God gives preference according to race: i.e. different rewards to "Jews" than to others. This would be the definition of racism: giving people different rights and privileges based on their ethnicity. God can do this, if He so chooses, but it would not change the fact that it was racism.



Excellent. So you deny any distinction between Jew and Gentile then?



Not at all.

Act 10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,

Note that this was directly addressed to the Jew/Gentile question. "No partiality", not "Partiality in reward, but not in salvation". Just "no partiality whatsoever".



Then the Gentiles are included as well. Or else, it is STRICTLY because of race, which would mean God is racist. Again, this would not be sinful for God, and would be perfectly within His rights. He can do as He wishes. Yet it does not change the fact that it is racism.



And yet, if it is a distinction of rewards and privileges based upon race, it is racism. That is the very definition of racism. There is no way you can change that.

And, FYI "Israel" has ALWAYS included Jew and Non Jew. No racism their, unless you try to force unbiblical definitions on "Israel", such as "Israel is only made up of Jews".

OK, Bro Havensdad. I hear you.

Personally, I am unable to accept the notion that God is a racist.

Beyond what I have posted, I have no further desire to make anymore rebuttals.

HankD

 

[DHK]

It is not beyond anything, least of all logic. If God shows favoritism to the Jews, because of the fact that they are a Jew, He is a racist. I agree that He has the right to do that if He so wishes, and it would not be sin, for Him. But that is hardly illogical, regardless of how you desire to paint it differently.

God did show favoritism. It is his perfect right to do so. How else would you interpret these Scriptures?

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

There was no special reason why God chose Israel out of all the other nations. In his sovereign grace he chose to do so. It was out of his love. We don't know the reason, and may never know the reason why. He chose them instead another nation. It was his choice. He is sovereign. One might call that favoritism; others call it sovereignty.

 

[DHK]

This is a very good question DHK, and deserves a Biblical answer. I hope this will help for I believe you may find what you seek in verses as we see in Ezekiel 20, and chapter 23, not to mention others. Ezekiel is a contemporary of Daniel, and Jeremiah. In these books we find that God is over all, and is in control of this world and allows what He will allow. As to the Why so many are anti-Semitic, it is the will of God.

The question was originally asked (I believe with a misunderstanding of the definition of anti-Semitism), Why are so many anti-Semitic; we are also negative against Islam and others are we not?

And the answer is no, we are not simply "negative" against Islam, and other religions. Though we preach against the doctrines of Islam, Hinduism, Shintoism, The New Age Movement, and others, we do not take a full scale attack against desecrating their cemetaries, burning their synagogues, or writing Nazi symbols on them (synagogues) and their houses. We do not blame them (other religions) for all the evil in the world, and all the accumulation of wealth, and the control of it. We do not create grievous conspiracy theories involving the Jewish nation. We do not deny the Holocaust, and other atrocities that they have suffered. There has been no other nation on earth that has suffered more at the hands of others than the nation of Israel. Even on this board (a Christian and a Baptist Board) is there hatred poured out against this nation, which is totally unwarranted. This is not just saying negative things about their doctrine which presently will not allow them into heaven unless they trust Christ. It is far more reaching than that.

 

[ituttut]

They will be judged by God because of their rejection of Jesus Christ, just as all who do so; not because of their anti-Jewish bias!

Old Regular, Old Regular. When will you ever get it? The rejection of Jesus Christ did not bring on anti-Semitism, but the preaching of Peter in Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." They are to do this for their past sins, and for having Messiah Crucified.

The persecution of The Jew, and all Israel began when God gave up Israel to the world, beginning with Nebuchadnezzar.

 

[Havensdad]

God did show favoritism. It is his perfect right to do so. How else would you interpret these Scriptures?

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

There was no special reason why God chose Israel out of all the other nations. In his sovereign grace he chose to do so. It was out of his love. We don't know the reason, and may never know the reason why. He chose them instead another nation. It was his choice. He is sovereign. One might call that favoritism; others call it sovereignty.

God showed favoritism, but this was not according to race/ethnicity, but it was according to citizenship in HIS nation, Israel. We see very clearly in the Old testament, that their were both Jewish and Non Jewish people who were part of Israel. Anyone who was circumcised and kept the passover, became a native born Israelite, according to scripture, irrespective of race. Anyone who refused to follow the Lord, was NOT considered a part of Israel, even if they were a Jew. They were literally "cut off from Israel", according to scripture.

NOTHING to do with race, my friend.

 

[DHK]

God showed favoritism, but this was not according to race/ethnicity, but it was according to citizenship in HIS nation, Israel. We see very clearly in the Old testament, that their were both Jewish and Non Jewish people who were part of Israel. Anyone who was circumcised and kept the passover, became a native born Israelite, according to scripture, irrespective of race. Anyone who refused to follow the Lord, was NOT considered a part of Israel, even if they were a Jew. They were literally "cut off from Israel", according to scripture.

NOTHING to do with race, my friend.

It has everything thing to do with race. Read again:

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people [i.e. RACE OF PEOPLE] unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

There were a few, a very few that were allowed in: Rahab the Harlot, Ruth the Moabitess, but not many others that we know of.

 

[Havensdad]

It has everything thing to do with race. Read again:

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people [i.e. RACE OF PEOPLE] unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

There were a few, a very few that were allowed in: Rahab the Harlot, Ruth the Moabitess, but not many others that we know of.

Bro, this is simply not true. ANYONE could become a part of this "people", by being circumcised, and keeping the passover. Any Jew who was NOT circumcised, and did not keep the passover, was "cut off" from Israel.

Rahab, Ruth, etc., are not the exception, they the rule! Even Jesus was not a pure blood Jew, but had several so called "Gentile" ancestors.

 

[ituttut]

Originally Posted by ituttut
This is a very good question DHK, and deserves a Biblical answer. I hope this will help for I believe you may find what you seek in verses as we see in Ezekiel 20, and chapter 23, not to mention others. Ezekiel is a contemporary of Daniel, and Jeremiah. In these books we find that God is over all, and is in control of this world and allows what He will allow. As to the Why so many are anti-Semitic, it is the will of God.

DHK: The question was originally asked (I believe with a misunderstanding of the definition of anti-Semitism), Why are so many anti-Semitic; we are also negative against Islam and others are we not?

I apologize for not catching the drift you show above, but I was answering you according to your post, and not what you have now changed it to. You asked, "Perhaps the question should be asked: Why are so many people, nations, religions, etc. anti-Semitic? I would like to know the answer". Maybe what I posted will help someone else to understand why the world hates those of Israel. It is the Will of God.

And the answer is no, we are not simply "negative" against Islam, and other religions. Though we preach against the doctrines of Islam, Hinduism, Shintoism, The New Age Movement, and others, we do not take a full scale attack against desecrating their cemetaries, burning their synagogues, or writing Nazi symbols on them (synagogues) and their houses. We do not blame them (other religions) for all the evil in the world, and all the accumulation of wealth, and the control of it. We do not create grievous conspiracy theories involving the Jewish nation. We do not deny the Holocaust, and other atrocities that they have suffered. There has been no other nation on earth that has suffered more at the hands of others than the nation of Israel. Even on this board (a Christian and a Baptist Board) is there hatred poured out against this nation, which is totally unwarranted. This is not just saying negative things about their doctrine which presently will not allow them into heaven unless they trust Christ. It is far more reaching than that.

Agree with your "There has been no other nation on earth that has suffered more at the hands of others than the nation of Israel".

How far is the reach you mention?

 

[ituttut]

They (the RCC) are the ones that have replaced Israel. The Covenant is now for the Catholics. They pattern their religion after the OT--priests interceding on behalf of the people, the sacrifice of the mass, the baptism of infants relating to the circumcision in the OT, etc. Theirs is a Covenant Theology. It always has been.

Agree, and this is very easy to do, as people will not accept that Old Covenant is dead, happining even before the event of Damascus Road.

 

[DHK]

Bro, this is simply not true. ANYONE could become a part of this "people", by being circumcised, and keeping the passover. Any Jew who was NOT circumcised, and did not keep the passover, was "cut off" from Israel.

Rahab, Ruth, etc., are not the exception, they the rule! Even Jesus was not a pure blood Jew, but had several so called "Gentile" ancestors.

Any one "could" but anyone did not. Everywhere the Israelites went the fear of the other nations was upon them. That is why only Rahab, out of that entire nation was saved. She had heard what the Lord had done for them. Instead of rebelling against Jehovah and His people (like all others) she wisely submitted to His authority. Few there were that followed her example. The OT records the opposition that Israel faced by nation after nation; not convert after convert. Follow the history of the OT.
It is in the NT where conversions to Christ are recorded. In the OT we read of opposition and wars against Israel.

Furthermore, in the tribulation there will be 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe sealed by God. Their race, their identity will be kept sure by the Lord. In the future New Jerusalem there will be the names of not only the 12 Apostles, but also the names of the 12 twelves tribes of Israel. In the Millennial Kingdom, these 12 tribes will be apparent to all that will be present there. God will preserve His people, though now they are "set on a shelf" for a short period of time.
"So all Israel shall be saved," a future event yet to come at the end of the Tribulation Period when Christ comes in His glory with the holy angels, and every eye shall see Him, even they also which pierced Him.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

[OldRegular]

In the OT we read of opposition and wars against Israel.

The reason for the wars against Israel was their continued rebellion against God. God used nation after nation to chastise Israel. Eventually the Northern Kingdom was carried into captivity in Assyria, never to return. Assyria imported pagans into the Northern Kingdom to intermarry with the remaining Israelites and the Samaritans were the result.

The Southern Kingdom [primarily Judah] was later carried into captivity in Babylon. God brought them out of captivity because Jesus Christ was prophesied to come through the lineage of Judah.

The Old Testament is primarily the story of a people who were in continual rebellion against God and were continually being punished by God.

The only time that there is any mention of fear of the Israelites was after the 40 years in the wilderness when they finally began their march to the Promised Land.

 

[OldRegular]

Any one "could" but anyone did not. Everywhere the Israelites went the fear of the other nations was upon them. That is why only Rahab, out of that entire nation was saved.

You need to go back and read Joshua again. Rahab and her family were the only ones saved in Jericho but Israel disobeyed Gods orders to destroy all those who lived in the land. This was one reason that Israel suffered so much as recorded in the Book if Judges.

I encourage you to read Joshua 9 and the story of the inhabitants of Gibeon, who tricked the Israelites, before making any rash statements about the Israelites entering Caanan.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
They will be judged by God because of their rejection of Jesus Christ, just as all who do so; not because of their anti-Jewish bias!

Old Regular, Old Regular. When will you ever get it? The rejection of Jesus Christ did not bring on anti-Semitism, but the preaching of Peter in Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." They are to do this for their past sins, and for having Messiah Crucified.

The persecution of The Jew, and all Israel began when God gave up Israel to the world, beginning with Nebuchadnezzar.

Itututt

I have no idea what your point is in the above post but your quote by me is entirely out of context. That was a response to a post by DHK.

Originally Posted by DHK
For those nations have an anti-Jewish bias and will stand before God because of it.

Response by OldRegular
They will be judged by God because of their rejection of Jesus Christ, just as all who do so; not because of their anti-Jewish bias!

Ituttut,
Did I say that rejection of Jesus Christ brought on anti semitism? NO!! I said that all will be judged by God because of their rejection of Jesus Christ not because of their anti-Jewish bias as DHK claims.

 

[DHK]

You need to go back and read Joshua again. Rahab and her family were the only ones saved in Jericho but Israel disobeyed Gods orders to destroy all those who lived in the land. This was one reason that Israel suffered so much as recorded in the Book if Judges.

I encourage you to read Joshua 9 and the story of the inhabitants of Gibeon, who tricked the Israelites, before making any rash statements about the Israelites entering Caanan.

That was the exception, not the norm. I think we, if we are honest we will admit that. The same is true with Jonah and his journey to Nineveh. They all, from the least to the greatest, repented in sackcloth and ashes. That is the exception, not the norm (as is being swallowed by a whale!).

About 150 years later the Lord sent Nahum to the same people, the Ninevites. This time there was no repentance at all, but a full scale rejection of the message of Nahum. That leads one to wonder if the repentance at the time of Jonah was genuine or superficial. If it was genuine, would it not have been taught to the next generation, and then to the next? Wouldn't it have still been around at the time of Nahum, instead of being completely forgotten about and rejected?

There are exceptions in the Bible. But for the norm Israel was a disobedient and rebellious people not being the light to the Gentiles that God had chosen them to be.

 

[ituttut]

First of all, to even ask the question defies certain Scripture as well as logic. He is beyond any sin or character flaw. He does however do whatever pleases Him.

It is not beyond anything, least of all logic. If God shows favoritism to the Jews, because of the fact that they are a Jew, He is a racist. I agree that He has the right to do that if He so wishes, and it would not be sin, for Him. But that is hardly illogical, regardless of how you desire to paint it differently.

I can see what you are saying, but the term racist cannot apply to Him for male, and female, black and white are all the same in His sight. I believe a better term would be, a discerning Judge, making the right decision.

He may look racist because He Loves His Wife. He wants a safe place for her, and He will provide it. And for Him to have a permanent home for her it was necessary to remove any obstacle that was in the way to that Home He was taking them to. But on the way she began to scream and holler, becoming restless before the wedding, and wanting to do, and be just as the heathen. She wanted some exciting action, and wanted it NOW. They are just so handsome, dressed to kill, and Oh what fun they do have. He gave her every opportunity to straighten-up, and accept the One that Loved her and wanted to protect her; but she continued to turn from His Love for her.

So this racist, as you prefer to call Him, gave her what she wanted. If you are married what would you do if the whole world wished to seduce your wife? Well they scored, she having given in. He protected her until she utterly broke His heart; So He turned her over to the world. Now if we wish to call Him jealous, and judgmental, of His people, this would fit the bill.

But call Him a racist I don't believe is a fit, for He hates sin, and sinners are of every gender, race, color, and religion. They are all treated the same. If they are lost, regardless of who they are, they are lost, with no exceptions. If they are saved, regardless of who they are, with no exceptions, they are saved. "All of you unbelievers, whoever, or what ever you are, stand over to my left." "All of you believers, whoever, or what ever you are, stand over to my right". Not Raciest, but just separating the wheat from the chaff.

 

[OldRegular]

But for the norm Israel was a disobedient and rebellious people not being the light to the Gentiles that God had chosen them to be.

Well you got one thing correct!

 

[OldRegular]

He may look racist because He Loves His Wife. He wants a safe place for her, and He will provide it.

Are you saying that God is a polygamist! If so perhaps we should all become Mormons.

 

[ituttut]

T.T. Shields

T.T. Shields was an amillenialist who was a dispensationalist at the same time. I am not speaking of eschatology here. You are confused.

Hi DHK. This Canadian preacher Shields can stand with the best. He had the knack of performing one of best, or perhaps the greatest known hallmarks of the Baptist Denomination. He really knew how to split a church, and groups. If I'm not mistaken, he knew little about the millennium, therefore would not take a stand.

BTW, there is no way this man could be of the dispensational gospel of Paul, for all believers in Paul's dispensational gospel are of pre-millennialism, and pre-tribulation.