Pastoral Qualification Quandary ??

[saturneptune]

The followin is what I asked you about.

"It is easy for people who do not have the problem of a wayward wife to look down on those who do for the high standard you so mightily proclaim. You could have just as easily ended up in the same situation except for the grace of God. There is nothing special in your decision making or life that made the situation you are in today. It is God's Providence and that alone."

I asked about how you were able to make such a judgment as you made.

For once in your life, read the post above.

 

[gb93433]

Just so you understand again, this statement of yours makes it clear that your house is in order, but it is in order because your wife is acting in a Christ like manner helping other women who are not. That puts your house in order, through no effort of your own, but the grace of God to give you such a wife. Now, does that make it clear how I came to that conclusion. You sit really pretty perched

You are making an assumption that is incorrect. You do not know me or my wife and what we have gone through. If you sought more to understand than judge or assume you might find that I have much more in common with the OP than you will ever know.

 

[OldRegular]

You are making an assumption that is incorrect. You do not know me or my wife and what we have gone through. If you sought more to understand than judge or assume you might find that I have much more in common with the OP than you will ever know.

Then it would seem to me that you would understand the point that some are trying to make.

 

[saturneptune]

You are making an assumption that is incorrect. You do not know me or my wife and what we have gone through. If you sought more to understand than judge or assume you might find that I have much more in common with the OP than you will ever know.

So back to the point, how is it that you should be held to a different standard administering your church than this pastor was unable to control his wife?

 

[gb93433]

You make excuses for your leadership and condemn the leadership of the other pastor in one breath.

Leadership and condemnation are completely separate. In fact if you place a man in leadership and he is not ready he will soon become the target of judgment. That is a quick way to ruin a young person. That is one of the reasons why not many should be teachers because they do incur a stricter judgement.

 

[gb93433]

So back to the point, how is it that you should be held to a different standard administering your church than this pastor was unable to control his wife?

Having that standard is not about judgment but about love. If a man continues to pastor while his family is out of control he will be the recipient of judgment by someone along the road of pastoring. It may be someone who is critical. It may be someone who is an outsider and not a believer. His effectiveness will be reduced and the judgment coming his way will increase. The church can help that a lot by loving him through it when he needs them most. I see no different standard. In fact that has been the standard in my own life and in my own situation.

In the past two years I have dealt with two people who have gone through divorce. Neither of them wanted the divorce. There were times when I heard them tell me they were struggling with suicide. Imagine pastoring a church when your wife left and the judgment that would bring on you by outsiders. Those going throught that time are so consumed with the issues that they are often not in their normal mind. The best thing thta can happen is for them to get away from the comments that can come their way and be the recipients of loving people.

 

[saturneptune]

Having that standard is not about judgment but about love. If a man continues to pastor while his family is out of control he will be the recipient of judgment by someone along the road of pastoring. It may be someone who is critical. It may be someone who is an outsider and not a believer. His effectiveness will be reduced and the judgment coming his way will increase. The church can help that a lot by loving him through it when he needs them most. I see no different standard. In fact that has been the standard in my own life and in my own situation.

In the past two years I have dealt with two people who have gone through divorce. Neither of them wanted the divorce. There were times when I heard them tell me they were struggling with suicide. Imagine pastoring a church when your wife left and the judgment that would bring on you by outsiders. Those going throught that time are so consumed with the issues that they are often not in their normal mind. The best thing thta can happen is for them to get away from the comments that can come their way and be the recipients of loving people.

Wrong, the best thing the congregation of a local church could do for such a pastor is to support him and his family, pray for him, and bring him through the situation with God's help. The solution is not to show him the door. I feel the same for the deacons you dealt with. I was only using your yard stick. As for what the outside world thinks of a church helping a pastor in any situation like that, if they do not like it, they can look the other way. I believe you are getting this situation confused with others such as a pastor leading an immoral life.

 

[DHK]

Wrong, the best thing the congregation of a local church could do for such a pastor is to support him and his family, pray for him, and bring him through the situation with God's help. The solution is not to show him the door. I feel the same for the deacons you dealt with. I was only using your yard stick. As for what the outside world thinks of a church helping a pastor in any situation like that, if they do not like it, they can look the other way. I believe you are getting this situation confused with others such as a pastor leading an immoral life.

He must be: blameless, above reproach, one that rules well his own house.
If he cannot rule his own house how can he rule the house of God?

Those are not my words, but God's words, and God's standard.
Sin has its consequences. I know a man who came to Christ as a result of a car accident. The accident was caused by drunkenness. The man was saved, forgiven, called to full time ministry, and is a pastor today. He is also a paraplegic, and unable to use his legs. He will never have the use of his legs but will always be confined to a wheel chair until Christ comes. His sins are forgiven, but the consequence of his sins will forever remain with him or at least til the end of this earthly life.

The consequence of a man not keeping his house in order, is disqualification from the ministry. It is clear, in black and white, in 1Tim. 3. The sin is forgiven. The consequences are there and will remain in place until death or Christ comes again.

Eve sinned. She took of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not Adam (at least not initially). But to Adam was the sin imputed. Why? Adam did not have control over his wife, over his house. He gave in to her wishes, and rebelled against God. The sin was imputed to Adam, even though Eve had partook of the forbidden fruit first. A man must rule his house. God has set him over the household as the head of the house. This principle is clearly taught in 1Cor.11:1-4.

 

[gb93433]

Wrong, the best thing the congregation of a local church could do for such a pastor is to support him and his family, pray for him, and bring him through the situation with God's help. The solution is not to show him the door. I feel the same for the deacons you dealt with. I was only using your yard stick. As for what the outside world thinks of a church helping a pastor in any situation like that, if they do not like it, they can look the other way. I believe you are getting this situation confused with others such as a pastor leading an immoral life.

I agree with you. Where did I ever say to show the pastor the door? At the particular time he is not qualified nor in any state of mind to pastor anyone. He needs to be pastored at the time.

In regards to the deacons at the church I pastored they were giving me all kinds of trouble. I really do not want to say much more. There was illegal things occurring and physical confrontation between a youth and deacon. There was heresy being taught. The Mormon bishop was invited to come and teach. It was a mess I thought possible to solve but it did not happen and has not happened since even with a much different pastor. The church is steadily declining.

I had spent most of my life being hired to turn things around and for the most past have been rather successful. But not that church. Today I would not even try except to help it die. That is what a lot of people told me needed to happen. Within two days a church called me and wanted me to interview as a prospective pastor. The SBC invited me to work with youth at a university. My wife wanted nothing to do with religious folks wanting to be a social club so we just left and I went back into working a regular job. She recently told me that she is ready again if I wanted to pastor again. It has strengthened our marriage and our ministry. It has taught me to let God work and not be concerned what we will do. When I went back into business it allowed me to make enough money that would he hard to do in 20 years. So now we are in a much better financial situation. During our time away from pastoring we have had an impact on a number of students and couples. I met with a pastor who was in a Bible study I led to teach him to do discipleship. I met with a man who had been one of the leaders of a Christian cult in the town where we lived. So ministry never stopped I just changed vocations.
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[gb93433]

As for what the outside world thinks of a church helping a pastor in any situation like that, if they do not like it, they can look the other way.

Christ is far more important than any pastor. The purpose of the pastor is to lead and he must be fit to lead and his family must be under his control. A rebellious family is not under his control but under the control of something else. That may or may not have anything to do with being immoral. It may not have anything to do with him. The problem we have todayu is a situation that is very different than the early church had. We have paid professional pastors. I believe you would say something much different if the pastor were a memebr of your church and works a regular job. I know a number of peope from a particualkr church that has never had a professional pastor. Many of the men have been in training for years. A 50 year old man is not viewed as old. Many in that congregation have been on long and short term mission trips. That church has planted other chruches. y the time a man becomes the senior "pastor" he has already been doing ministry for many years.He is actively training the younger men to do ministry and preach and teach. Most likely his chidren are married and have families of their own. There are some great godly people in that church.

 

[Jim1999]

I love the literalism in understanding what scripture is teaching, and quite apart from local cultural events in Corinth.

If we keep going there won't be an evangelical church worth attending in America.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[saturneptune]

He must be: blameless, above reproach, one that rules well his own house.
If he cannot rule his own house how can he rule the house of God?

Those are not my words, but God's words, and God's standard.
Sin has its consequences. I know a man who came to Christ as a result of a car accident. The accident was caused by drunkenness. The man was saved, forgiven, called to full time ministry, and is a pastor today. He is also a paraplegic, and unable to use his legs. He will never have the use of his legs but will always be confined to a wheel chair until Christ comes. His sins are forgiven, but the consequence of his sins will forever remain with him or at least til the end of this earthly life.

The consequence of a man not keeping his house in order, is disqualification from the ministry. It is clear, in black and white, in 1Tim. 3. The sin is forgiven. The consequences are there and will remain in place until death or Christ comes again.

Eve sinned. She took of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not Adam (at least not initially). But to Adam was the sin imputed. Why? Adam did not have control over his wife, over his house. He gave in to her wishes, and rebelled against God. The sin was imputed to Adam, even though Eve had partook of the forbidden fruit first. A man must rule his house. God has set him over the household as the head of the house. This principle is clearly taught in 1Cor.11:1-4.

I have been blessed with a wife who is not like the one described in this thread. It is a gift of God. Just as easily, I could have married someone who I did not know that well and she turn out to be like this woman in question. It would be quite easy to have your interpretation of the verse when it is not a problem to me. Actually, it is not a problem anyhow, since I have not been called to be a pastor.

I will say it again, to compare a man who on his own caused his own fate to the one described in this thread is not a valid comparison. Your example of Adam and Eve is better, but we are not talking about qualifications for a pastor here, we are talking about transfer of sin.

I will pose this question to you with your interpretation. When, if ever, will this man ever be qualified to pastor again? Are you saying his entire ability to pastor is dependent on this woman having a change of heart?

 

[PastorMark]

Are you saying his entire ability to pastor is dependent on this woman having a change of heart?

This is one of the areas I am having difficulty counseling. He has asked me essentially this question. How can a woman, who is not to have authority over a man, be given so much authority by God that she can decide if the man can Pastor or not? There seems to be something wrong with this, and I'm trying to figure out what it is.

PastorMark.

 

[saturneptune]

This is one of the areas I am having difficulty counseling. He has asked me essentially this question. How can a woman, who is not to have authority over a man, be given so much authority by God that she can decide if the man can Pastor or not? There seems to be something wrong with this, and I'm trying to figure out what it is.

PastorMark.

I agree that it does not seem right at all, and I am totally unconvinced by the opinions expessed on this thread as to what the verses. means. It seems most dont bother to think, they read the verse and come up with some simple answer. I do not envy your position. This is a tough one. I was not called to be a pastor, but I can see where this would require some leading of the Holy Spirit. How ever it works out, I hope this man can pastor at some point, if that is the desire of his heart, and it must be if he is called.

To throw someone out of their calling and their occupation forever due to something they had no control over seems to me to be a misinterpretation of those verses. The source of the problem seems to be this wife. Other than God, I know of no way to change someone like that. It makes no sense to me that God would make a calling conditional on an irrational person.

 

[gb93433]

Just as easily, I could have married someone who I did not know that well and she turn out to be like this woman in question.

Proverbs gives many wise principles that Christians would do well to know very well. Wisdom helps to avoid the chance games.

I was in the building business for many years and saw a number of wise people and saw those who lacked wisdom. There are some I would get a call from who were only looking for a price and that is all they got. I seldom did any work for them because they already had their mind made up. They were usually looking for the cheapest price. Others who came to me would ask many good questions and listen to any advice I gave them. I could tell if I would get the job or not by the way they listened and followed my advice. I have seen the results of the work of those hired by price.

Before my wife and met each other we were surrounded by good friends who were living the Christian life and making disciples. We were actively involved in ministry. I knew her roommates and her friends. We went to the same church. I do not know one person whom I was in college with who was in the same parachurch organization I was in who is now divorced over 30 years later.

"Being married is not so much about looking for the right person as it is being the right person."

Of course there are no guarantees in life but a lot of things can be prevented with sound wisdom. I am thnkful for those who have helped me grow and mentored me even until this day. There has always been a godly man in my life who has helped me along the way. He has served as my mentor in helping me to be a better dad and husband. It has helepd me a lot as an example and in how to deal with issues.

 

[saturneptune]

Proverbs gives many wise principles that Christians would do well to know very well. Wisdom helps to avoid the chance games.

I was in the building business for many years and saw a number of wise people and saw those who lacked wisdom. There are some I would get a call from who were only looking for a price and that is all they got. I seldom did any work for them because they already had their mind made up. They were usually looking for the cheapest price. Others who came to me would ask many good questions and listen to any advice I gave them. I could tell if I would get the job or not by the way they listened and followed my advice. I have seen the results of the work of those hired by price.

Before my wife and met each other we were surrounded by good friends who were living the Christian life and making disciples. We were actively involved in ministry. I knew her roommates and her friends. We went to the same church. I do not know one person whom I was in college with who was in the same parachurch organization I was in who is now divorced over 30 years later.

"Being married is not so much about looking for the right person as it is being the right person."

Of course there are no guarantees in life but a lot of things can be prevented with sound wisdom. I am thnkful for those who have helped me grow and mentored me even until this day. There has always been a godly man in my life who has helped me along the way. He has served as my mentor in helping me to be a better dad and husband. It has helepd me a lot as an example and in how to deal with issues.

Well, I cannot disagree with that post. Don't get me wrong, in the 32 years, I have had, and sure she has had, one of those days where she would have sold me for a nickel if she could have gotten it.

I cannot say I have ever experienced anything to the extreme of this thread. As I already pointed out, it is a mute point, because I am not a pastor, and second, my wife has never done anything approaching this situation.

Your point about your dating years is very good advice, being around Christian people as you were getting to know each other, and the record of 30 years speaks for itself. God has really watched over me, as I was not as you describe when I dated.

Although we disagree about this pastor, I know we both hope and pray that God will allow this man to continue to pastor in some way, hopefully with a changed heart from his wife. You have to admire the man for not leaving the pastorate with her state of mind.

 

[gb93433]

To throw someone out of their calling and their occupation forever due to something they had no control over seems to me to be a misinterpretation of those verses. It makes no sense to me that God would make a calling conditional on an irrational person.

I have been a builder for many years. My ability to do the work is contingent on my skill gained in training and I must be in good enough health to do the work. If I was not careful and cut off my hand and bled to death my passion would have immediately ended. If a man flies a plane and loses his medical he loses his job. That is the risk he takes and he understands that. One who desires to pastor should be especially careful in getting wise counsel in regards to who he marries, discipleship training, leadrship training, pastoral training and educational training. He needs to know the risk of not exercising wisdom each step of the way. Look in the OT what God required of a priest. Is God unfair?

There are times when God has called a man and he gets proud. Is it to much to ask that man to step down because he has failed to humble himself?

The qualifications of a pastor are in the present tense. When we lower the standard of anything we get something that is substandard.

Jesus called us to make disciples. His calling to make disciples is not contingent on being a pastor. There are many around the world who are making disciples where one could be executed for their faith. Making disciples is not contingent on a pay check.

The idea of a full time paid pastor is foreign to so many in other countries. A few years ago I talked with a missionary about where he was located. He mentioned that the average pastor pastors three chruches and walks to each one. Each service is about three hours long. Those pastors go to work each day to provide for their families and then pastor three churches.

 

[gb93433]

This is one of the areas I am having difficulty counseling.

I was somewhat soft on this until a lady in a church I was pastoring told me that she was going to divorced her husband. When I told he that God hates divorce she cited two deacons who were divorced and made the comment that they turned out all right. So her attitude was that she was going to divorce her husband anyway and saw little reason to work through the problems. The example of the two deacons did not provide a reason for working through the problems. She saw her way to happiness not by working through the problems but by getting a divorce. Two years ago I saw the same thing happen to a man when his wife divorced him. She was unwilling to work through the problems but rather her view was that it was easier to change the partner. When I confronted her about it she was indignant. Gerald Dahl wrote a book in the early 70s about what the church should do about divorce. He saw the responsibility of the church to confront problem marriages. Today many ignore problem marriages.

 

[gb93433]

If we keep going there won't be an evangelical church worth attending in America.

There are less and less about God's work and more and more about nickels and noses, and programs

 

[DHK]

I will pose this question to you with your interpretation. When, if ever, will this man ever be qualified to pastor again? Are you saying his entire ability to pastor is dependent on this woman having a change of heart?

Forgive me, but I haven't read all 16 pages.
I believe that if the person in question has been divorced he is disqualified from the ministry. There is much support for this view simply in the fact that many Bible Colleges will not accept a divorced person as a student, when going into the ministry. They don't qualify. Why train someone for the ministry who doesn't qualify for the ministry?

However, if the problem lies within the family, as in "who has the authority," an unsubmissive wife, a rebellious wife, etc., It might be wise for the couple to take some time off and get their problems reconciled, even if it means seeking out another seasoned pastor for counselling. For some pastors that is humbling because they are the ones that normally do the counseling. But no family is immune from problems: pastors' included.

The problem needs to be recognize and admitted as a problem. That is the first step. Sometimes problems are refused to be seen or recognized.
Then a solution needs to be proposed with the church's help.

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.