The will of God in the salvation of men: Matt:11:27

[BaptistBob]

God hid things from some and not from others. That is not debated. The reason is the problem. He's hiding some things from the learned of the day, he's revealing them to others. He revealed to Simon Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. He didn't do this because of something Peter did, but rather because "it seemed good in thy sight." You see the difference? God sovereignly decided to hide something from some people and reveal it to others.

Yeah, you said that before. It doesn't affect my point. You're just providing and example that PROVES my point.


Prov 3:34
"God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble."

 

[Me4Him]

God hid things from some and not from others. That is not debated. The reason is the problem. He's hiding some things from the learned of the day, he's revealing them to others. He revealed to Simon Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. He didn't do this because of something Peter did, but rather because "it seemed good in thy sight." You see the difference? God sovereignly decided to hide something from some people and reveal it to others.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

God doesn't hid things from people, it just that the "frame of mind" (natural man) they are in doesn't understand what is "obvious", even when standing right in front of them. (Jesus)

Israel closed their eyes/ears/hearts to Jesus's word, even the works he performed.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

None of these works were hid, people blind themselves by their choice of "UNBELIEF",

just as Israel chose to close their eyes/ears/hearts to everything Jesus said or done.

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

 

[canadyjd]

Salvation can only be had by believing that Christ died for our sins and that He rose again on the third day and sits at the right hand of the Father.1st Cor 15:1-4

Yes, but the "believing" comes about through revelation from God. Jesus says no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son wills to "reveal" Him.

This clearly indicates Jesus chooses whom He will reveal the Father to.

Jesus said, referring to cities that were unrepentant of their sins (meaning the people were unrepentant) that the Father had hidden "these things" from the wise and intellegent (those of the cities that were unrepentant) and revealed them to babes (those burdened for righteousness...going back to Matt. 5 and the beatitudes...i.e His disciples).

Jesus said that if the miracles performed in those cities (which had rejected Him) had occurred in Tyre, Sidon, or Sodom, the people would have repented. The question then becomes.... why didn't God send someone to perform miracles in Tyre, Sidon, or Sodom, if He wanted all men to be saved?

The thing about whom the Son desires to have Salvation is everyone.

Does everyone have salvation, either now or in the life to come? Why not? Is Christ not able to accomplish that which He desires?

And, concerning the passage of scripture in Matt., Jesus doesn't invite everyone to come to Him. He only invites those who are weary and heavy laden, not everyone.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

God doesn't hid things from people, it just that the "frame of mind" (natural man) they are in doesn't understand what is "obvious", even when standing right in front of them. (Jesus)

Matt 11:25 "....Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intellegent and didst reveal them to babes."

Jesus disagrees with you.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Where does scripture say God has not chosen the whole world? Please show me just where I might find support for this view of particular redemption.

John 10:14

"I am the Good Shepherd; and I know My own, and My own know Me, (15) even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. (16) And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall become one flock with one Shepherd."

Jesus clearly talks about a specific people who are His sheep. He says he knows His own and His own know Him. Their relationship is as sure as the relationship between Jesus and His Father. It is not a "potential" relationship. He already knows them before He calls to them. They are already His before He calls to them and they follow Him. He says they "shall hear My voice..."

John 10:25

"Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe the works that I do in My Father's name, these bear witness of Me. (26) But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep'"

Notice that Jesus doesn't say they are not His sheep because they don't believe (which is what you maintain), but He says they do not believe because they are not His sheep.

The reason they do not believe is because they are not His sheep. He doesn't know them in that relationship. If they were His sheep, they would believe. That is His point.

John 10:27

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; (28) and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish..."

Clearly, Jesus has a specific people, already disignated, they are His sheep. Notice also the connection between being "known" by Jesus and salvation. This is the point of the Matt. passage, that Jesus chooses those to whom He "wills" reveal the Father and they then "know" the Father...i.e they are saved.

peace to youraying:

 

[BaptistBob]

Matt 11:25 "....Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intellegent and didst reveal them to babes."

Jesus disagrees with you.

peace to youraying:

No he doesn't. See my comments in this thread about that verse.

 

[BaptistBob]

John 10:14

Jesus clearly talks about a specific people who are His sheep. He says he knows His own and His own know Him. Their relationship is as sure as the relationship between Jesus and His Father. It is not a "potential" relationship. He already knows them before He calls to them. They are already His before He calls to them and they follow Him. He says they "shall hear My voice..."

John 10:25
Notice that Jesus doesn't say they are not His sheep because they don't believe (which is what you maintain), but He says they do not believe because they are not His sheep.

The reason they do not believe is because they are not His sheep. He doesn't know them in that relationship. If they were His sheep, they would believe. That is His point.

John 10:27

Clearly, Jesus has a specific people, already disignated, they are His sheep. Notice also the connection between being "known" by Jesus and salvation. This is the point of the Matt. passage, that Jesus chooses those to whom He "wills" reveal the Father and they then "know" the Father...i.e they are saved.

peace to youraying:

No, the allusion is to Ez 34:7-30 where God says his sheep (his BELIEVING people) lack a shepherd and are being abused by their leaders . God says he will send one: Himself.

Jesus begins the discussion by saying that the "sheep" never followed another, but waited for him (John 10:8). The sheep, therefore, are those who believed God, and waited for the Messiah, while rejecting those who came before. Jesus is now taking watch over God's believing people.

Therefore, those who reject the Father's teaching will not believe Christ's teaching when he comes. This is why Christ asks them to look at the miracles and believe in them, instead of believing his words (John 10:37-38).

But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

 

[canadyjd]

No he doesn't. See my comments in this thread about that verse.

I read your comments.

Jesus disagrees with you, too.

peace to youraying:

 

[BaptistBob]

I read your comments.

Jesus disagrees with you, too.

peace to youraying:

Jesus can speak for himself. :jesus:

 

[canadyjd]

No, the allusion is to Ez 34:7-30 where God says his sheep (his BELIEVING people) lack a shepherd and are being abused by their leaders.

In Ez 34, God is speaking of Israel in a general way, as being led astray because their leaders (shepherds) who were negligent in keeping His commands.

To wander on the mountain tops and high hills (where they set up idols to worship) denotes unbelief. He also says He will judge between the sheeps, between the sheep and the goats, further separating the sheep.

Jesus begins the discussion by saying that the "sheep" never followed another, but waited for him (John 10:8). The sheep, therefore, are those who believed God, and waited for the Messiah, while rejecting those who came before. Jesus is now taking watch over God's believing people.

So, you agree that the sheep have already been chosen and are waiting to hear the voice of their master? But, they can't already be considered believers, can they....Jesus says He has other sheep from another fold. This refers to gentiles who couldn't be counted as believers.

Therefore, those who reject the Father's teaching will not believe Christ's teaching when he comes. This is why Christ asks them to look at the miracles and believe in them, instead of believing his words (John 10:37-38).

That does not change the fact that Jesus told some that they did not believe because they were not His sheep. That is contrary to your view.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Jesus can speak for himself. :jesus:

I agree and He already has.

I keep quoting Him and you keep ignoring Him.

Matt. 11:25 "Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intellent and didst reveal them to babes."

-----Jesus Christ speaking of His Father hiding things from men.

peace to youraying:

 

[BaptistBob]

In Ez 34, God is speaking of Israel in a general way, as being led astray because their leaders (shepherds) who were negligent in keeping His commands.

Correct.

To wander on the mountain tops and high hills (where they set up idols to worship) denotes unbelief.

No, it's quite literally speaking of the Judean exile by repeating Jeremiah's accusations against the leaders.

He also says He will judge between the sheeps, between the sheep and the goats, further separating the sheep.

So?

So, you agree that the sheep have already been chosen and are waiting to hear the voice of their master?

They have never followed (beleived in) another. When he comes they recogize his voice. They are not unbelievers waiting to become believes. They literally are NOT following ANOTHER PRIOR TO CHRIST'S ARRIVAL.

But, they can't already be considered believers, can they....Jesus says He has other sheep from another fold. This refers to gentiles who couldn't be counted as believers.

Gentiles can believe God too. Buy entering through the gate, they are saved.

That does not change the fact that Jesus told some that they did not believe because they were not His sheep. That is contrary to your view.

You weren't paying attention. I said that if they accepted the Father's words, they also accepted Christ's. I also said, that if they had rejected the Father's words, they also rejected Christ's.

So........If they rejected the Father's words, and therefore reject Christ, what can be done? They can "believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Sheep in 10:8 are those who never followed another. They hear and listen. What about those who won't "hear and follow"? They should "believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." Then they will hear and follow.

"even though you do not believe me -----> believe the miracles"

 

[BaptistBob]

Matt. 11:25 "Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intellent and didst reveal them to babes."

-----Jesus Christ speaking of His Father hiding things from men.

Yeah, that was my point. I even told you which men.

 

[Revmitchell]

canadyjd, just as interesting as Matthew 11:27 is the verse which precedes it:

25 At this time Jesus answered and said, I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou has hid these things from the wise and prudent, and has revealed them unto babes.

So the Father reveals things to some and hides them from others, and Jesus said in the next verse that the Father deemed it good to do so.

Then in verse 27, here is Jesus choosing to whom he will reveal the Father. And that means that there are some to whom Jesus did not reveal the Father.

Does anybody have an idea of the criteria the Father and the Son used to decide to whom they would reveal certain things? Me neither.

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[canadyjd]

Yeah, that was my point. I even told you which men.

You seemed to be saying the opposite of Matt. 11, that God didn't hide things from men.

You never answered the question concerning the cities of Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom. Jesus said that if they had seen the miracles, they would have repented.

Why didn't God send someone to those cities to do miracles so they would repent? Lot was already in Sodom, and was a righteous men. Why not have Lot perform miracles so the people of Sodom would repent?

Isn't it because God has chosen to hide the things that bring repentance from some men, and reveal those things to others?

That certainly appears to be the truth, in context, as revealed in Matt. 11.

peace to youraying:

 

[Allan]

You seemed to be saying the opposite of Matt. 11, that God didn't hide things from men.

You never answered the question concerning the cities of Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom. Jesus said that if they had seen the miracles, they would have repented.

Why didn't God send someone to those cities to do miracles so they would repent? Lot was already in Sodom, and was a righteous men. Why not have Lot perform miracles so the people of Sodom would repent?

Isn't it because God has chosen to hide the things that bring repentance from some men, and reveal those things to others?

That certainly appears to be the truth, in context, as revealed in Matt. 11.

peace to youraying:

I have pretty much stayed out of this thread only because I know it's intent but figured I would toss in my nickle on this point. The answer I see from scripture is because God gives all men enough light via the Holy Spirit to believe and thus be saved but the amount of that light is at His discretion. Not one of those cities was without a witness and yet still they rejected it. The works done that they would have repented over proves three things:

1)The unregenerate can understand and believe those truths revealed by the Holy Spirit; and

2) though all are afforeded such grace, some are given more than others as it pleases God to do such, but their rejection in either case still stands; and

3) to whom much is given much shall be required and so it is that though they will be judged on that great day of judgment it will not compare to the cities that hear and saw Christ and rejected him still.

 

[webdog]

I read your comments.

Jesus disagrees with you, too.

peace to youraying:

I missed the memo where you became Jesus' personal spokesperson...

 

[Winman]

Hi there, my name is Winman, I am new here, but have been following this thread a few days. Myself, I do not believe Calvinist doctrine, I believe God gives every person free will concerning salvation.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I believe this verse shows that salvation is available to anyone, and whether to be saved or not is a person's individual choice.

If ever there was an argument that would support those who believe God determines whether a person believes or listens, it would be the story of Pharoah in Exodus.

3 times God says he will harden Pharoah's heart Exo 4:21, 7:3, 14:4.
1 time it says God will harden the Egyptian's hearts Exo 14:17
15 times the Bible says God hardened Pharoah's heart Exo 7:13, 7:14, 7:22, 8:15, 8:19, 8:32, 9:7, 9:12, 9:34, 9:35, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:8

So, on the surface it would appear that God does indeed determine whether a person will believe God, or harken to his words.

But if you go to Exodus chapter 3 you see that God knew beforehand that Pharoah would not listen to him.

Exo 3:16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:
17 And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.
18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.
19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.
20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

So you see two different types of person here. God knew beforehand that the elders would listen to Moses's voice, and God also knew that Pharoah would not listen.

It is not that God caused Pharoah not to listen, but God knew Pharoah was exceedingly proud and would refuse to listen. And this is exactly the attitude Pharoah showed.

Exo 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

And, as you follow the story, each time God brought a plague on Egypt, Pharoah would call for Moses and offer to let the children of Israel go. But each time, as soon as the plague was ended, Pharoah would change his mind and refuse to let them go. So, Pharoah was changing his mind here over and over again, which shows he had personal choice in the matter.

At one time, Pharoah even admitted he had sinned.

Exo 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked. 28 Intreat the LORD (for it is enough) that there be no more mighty thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no longer.


So here, Pharoah actually seems to repent and admit his sin. But what is Moses response to Pharoah?

29 And Moses said unto him, As soon as I am gone out of the city, I will spread abroad my hands unto the LORD; and the thunder shall cease, neither shall there be any more hail; that thou mayest know how that the earth is the LORD'S.
30 But as for thee and thy servants, I know that ye will not yet fear the LORD God.

And sure enough, look at verses 34-35

Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
35 And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.

Note that the Bible says Pharoah sinned yet more and hardened his heart. It does not say God hardened his heart, it says Pharoah himself hardened his own heart.

And if it was God's will that Pharoah's heart should be hardened, then how could this be a sin? Pharoah would be doing the will of God.

So, men have choice. But God knows beforehand those who are proud and will resist him, and will not repent. These folks are fit for destruction by their own choices.

 

[Allan]

Welcome to the BB Winman :wavey:

 

[BaptistBob]

You seemed to be saying the opposite of Matt. 11, that God didn't hide things from men.

No, you keep misphrasing it. He doesn't say "men." Whas does he say? Look it up and get back to us. After that, read what I said. Until you do those things, you'll keep going in circles.

You never answered the question concerning the cities of Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom. Jesus said that if they had seen the miracles, they would have repented.

Yes, so? I agree with most OT scholars that Jesus is relecting upon the OT stories about those cities. Jesus was not walking the earth at that time, and when he was Sodom had already been destroyed for hundreds of years.

Why didn't God send someone to those cities to do miracles so they would repent? Lot was already in Sodom, and was a righteous men. Why not have Lot perform miracles so the people of Sodom would repent?

He doesn't have to. 99.9999% of believers haven't seen any. Blessed are those who have not seen and still believe.

That certainly appears to be the truth, in context, as revealed in Matt. 11.

No, it doesn't. See my comments on the topic as to why it is so.