In Christ

[Winman]

More scripture that shows God gives man free will and choice.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Prov 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

And a person can choose against the Lord as well.

Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

As I said, you can follow the teachings of men that say man is not given a free will and choice, but many scriptures show otherwise. I choose to believe the scriptures.

 

[OldRegular]

As I said, you can follow the teachings of men that say man is not given a free will and choice, but many scriptures show otherwise. I choose to believe the scriptures.

Then show some Scripture which clearly show that man has a free will.

 

[Winman]

Then show some Scripture which clearly show that man has a free will.

Unbelieveable. You are going to try and pretend that I have not already shown verses that say this very thing? Shame on you. :BangHead:

 

[OldRegular]

Unbelieveable. You are going to try and pretend that I have not already shown verses that say this very thing? Shame on you. :BangHead:

Then it won't be any trouble to show them again. I am not talking about Scripture you think proves your erroneous doctrine but Scripture that show definitively that the will of unregenerate man is not in bondage to sin.

 

[Winman]

Look, if terms like God saying a man should give of his "voluntary will" or his "own will" and phrases like "choose ye" do not convince you, then I really doubt any scripture could convince you. I'll give it one last shot, how about a whole chapter of the Bible?

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
6 And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.
7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
10 And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

I think it absolutely obvious to anyone unless they be willingly ignorant that a man can choose to go against God's will.

Of course, in Calvinism's twisted doctrine, you teach that it is God's will to disobey God's will. Now if you cannot see how ridiculous that is, I can't help you.

 

[BaptistBob]

Then it won't be any trouble to show them again. I am not talking about Scripture you think proves your erroneous doctrine but Scripture that show definitively that the will of unregenerate man is not in bondage to sin.

We already discussed this. Among the many examples is Matt 11:

21"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Two things:

1. It is impossible for the "unregenerate" to repent apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, because the mind of such men is in bondage.

2. Those OT cities would have repented.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit was resisted.

 

[OldRegular]

Judas repented and hung himself!

 

[Winman]

OR

Judas did repent of betraying Jesus, but he did not turn to Jesus for forgiveness of his sins. If he had done so, he would have been forgiven. Judas did have a change of heart and realized he had committed a terrible sin, but instead of going to God for forgiveness he killed himself.

A person can repent of a sin or sins, that is not the repentance talked about in the Bible concerning salvation. That repentance is to turn from unbelief to believeing on Jesus Christ.

A good example is Matthew chapter 3. John the Baptist was preaching for people to repent of their sins. For brevity only I am going to leave out some verses.

Matt 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

And we see what they were repenting of:

Matt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

But we see more, we see the Pharisees and Sadducees come to him also. But look what John tells them.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

You see what John was telling them to repent of? They were trusting that they were saved because they had Abraham as their father. They believed they were the chosen of God. John tells them this in no way makes them safe and that God could raise up children of Abraham from the very stones around them.

But then John shows them who they should trust upon for salvation.

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

John was preaching to people that they were sinners and needed to trust on Jesus Christ. Their good works could not save them, and being children of Abraham could not save them.

And Paul himself confirms this was the message John the Baptist preached.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

It is good for a person to repent of sin. It is good they confess it is wrong and have a change of heart to do good works. But this will not save a person, a person must trust upon Jesus Christ to have their sins forgiven.

So, Judas was truly sorry he betrayed Jesus, but he did not turn to Jesus and rely upon him to forgive his sins. So, Judas was lost.

 

[Winman]

And Old Regular,

If Calvinism is true, then John the Baptist, and even Jesus himself, and all the apostles preaching to the people to repent and trust on Christ makes absolutely no sense. Because according to your belief, a person cannot make that decision, God decides who will repent and who will not.

And Jesus telling the apostles and disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel makes no sense. If God wills a person trust on Christ they will whether they hear the gospel or not, and if God wills a person cannot believe then they cannot believe even if they heard the gospel.

And I have shown you from scripture that God himself says men have their own voluntary will.

Now, if a man does have his own voluntary will, then the preaching of the gospel makes perfect sense. A man can hear the gospel and decide whether to believe God's promise of salvation to those who trust on Christ, or a person can turn away from God's promise. It is up to the individual. And if God gives man free will, then in no way is God's will violated, it is God's will to give man free choice.

 

[OldRegular]

Free Will—A Slave

A Sermon
(No. 52)
Delivered on Sabbath Morning, December 2, 1855, by the
REV. C.H. Spurgeon
At New Park Street Chapel, Southwark.

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.—John 5:40.

This is one of the great guns of the Arminians, mounted upon the top of their walls, and often discharged with terrible noise against the poor Christians called Calvinists. I intend to spike the gun this morning, or, rather, to turn it on the enemy, for it was never theirs; it was never cast at their foundry at all, but was intended to teach the very opposite doctrine to that which they assert. Usually, when the text is taken, the divisions are:

First, that man has a will.

Secondly, that he is entirely free.

Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved.

Now, we shall have no such divisions; but we will endeavour to take a more calm look at the text; and not, because there happen to be the words "will," or "will not" in it, run away with the conclusion that it teaches the doctrine of free-will. It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing. Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free-will; and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, "If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright." It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free-will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that he gives both; that he is "Alpha and Omega" in the salvation of men.
Our four points, this morning, shall be:

First—that every man is dead, because it says: "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

Secondly—that there is life in Jesus Christ: "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

Thirdly—that there is life in Christ Jesus for every one that comes for it: "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life;" implying that all who go will have life.

And fourthly—the gist of the text lies here, that no man by nature ever will come to Christ, for the text says, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

So far from asserting that men of their own wills ever do such a thing, it boldly and flatly denies it, and says, "Ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life." Why, beloved, I am almost ready to exclaim, Have all free-willers no knowledge that they dare to run in the teeth of inspiration? Have all those that deny the doctrine of grace no sense? Have they so departed from God that they wrest this to prove free-will; whereas the text says, "Ye WILL NOT come to me that ye might have life."

I. First, then, our text implies THAT MEN BY NATURE ARE DEAD.

II. Secondly, IN CHRIST JESUS THERE IS LIFE,

III. This brings us to the third point: that ETERNAL LIFE IS GIVEN TO ALL WHO COME FOR IT.

IV. This brings us to the fourth point, THAT BY NATURE NO MAN WILL COME TO CHRIST,

For Spurgeon's complete sermon on the above Scripture go to:
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.htm


A similar point made, which I have posted often, is made by John Dagg [Manual of Theology, page 322]:

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

 

[OldRegular]

OR

Judas did repent of betraying Jesus, but he did not turn to Jesus for forgiveness of his sins. If he had done so, he would have been forgiven. Judas did have a change of heart and realized he had committed a terrible sin, but instead of going to God for forgiveness he killed himself.

You believe what you want but Jesus Christ says of Judas:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

 

[Winman]

Well, I know Charles Spurgeon was a great preacher, but he was a man, and a man can be in error. And I see several errors in that sermon.

First—that every man is dead, because it says: "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

I will agree that every man is dead in trespass and sins, seperated from God. But that does not mean physically dead, a man is still physically alive and has a mind and ears to hear with. And the Bible says faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So if a man sincerely listens to God's word he can have faith.

The 2nd and 3rd lines that there is life in Christ and that anyone who comes can have this life, I am in agreement with.

And fourthly—the gist of the text lies here, that no man by nature ever will come to Christ, for the text says, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

Now, this I disagree with, this is an assumption on Spurgeon's part. We know that many thousands of people did come to Christ, and many millions over the centuries since then.

And if a man cannot come to Christ, then why would Jesus tell men to come to him?

Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest

This is the part of Calvinism that is nonsensical. Calvinism teaches that a man cannot do things that God clearly commanded men to do.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, he compared himself to the serpent that Moses lifted up in Numbers chapter 21.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Now, let me ask you, were the Jews in Numbers 21 able to look upon the serpent that Moses lifted up? Let's see.

Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

So here the Jews rebelled against God, and God sent fiery serpents among them, and many died. The the Jews realized their sin and confessed to Moses and asked he intercede to the Lord for them.

And God commanded Moses to make a fiery serpent out of brass and set it on a pole. This represents Jesus Christ who was made sin for us and raised up on the cross. And God said if the Jews simply "looketh upon it" then they should live. And in verse 9 we are told that any man who was bitten by a serpent and beheld the serpent of brass lived.

But you see, God gave them something they were able to do. Yes, they were sinners, dead in sins, but they could look upon this brass serpent with their eyes. This is faith, this is believeing, this is depending upon the promise God made. God did not give them a duty they were not able to perform.

And a man can believe. We believe everyday. When you purchase a can of soup at the store, you are depending upon the contents to be just that, soup, and safe to eat. When you drive you depend upon your brakes to stop you, else you would be fearful to drive the car.

And you trust the words of friends and family everyday.

And it is the same with God's word. Jesus says if you will come to him in your heart for forgiveness then he will indeed save you.

You have eyes and ears, you can read and hear the scriptures. You have a mind, you can understand what the scriptures say. You are able to call upon Jesus. You can pray.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You could pray right now to Jesus and ask him to forgive your sins. It is not impossible to do whatsoever. God does not require you to do something it is not possible for you to do.

And faith is not some supernatural gift imposed on you from God. Faith comes by hearing God's word. And that is shown in vs. 14 "and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?".

If a man hears the gospel, then a man can call upon Jesus and be saved.

 

[canadyjd]

We already discussed this. Among the many examples is Matt 11:

21"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Two things:

1. It is impossible for the "unregenerate" to repent apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, because the mind of such men is in bondage.

2. Those OT cities would have repented.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit was resisted.

Holy Spirit was never sent.

Jesus said "If the miracles....had been performed....they would have repented..."

God, according to His will, chose not to send someone to those cities to do miracles so that the people would repent.

God withheld His Spirit instead, and they died in their sins.

peace to youraying:

 

[BaptistBob]

Judas repented and hung himself!

It does not say he repented.

However, Christ is not calling anyone to fake repentance. In the passage Christ talks about going to heaven and hell. He is clearly talking about their eternal destinies. Those wicked OT cities would have repented.

 

[BaptistBob]

Holy Spirit was never sent.

Jesus said "If the miracles....had been performed....they would have repented..."

God, according to His will, chose not to send someone to those cities to do miracles so that the people would repent.

God withheld His Spirit instead, and they died in their sins.

peace to youraying:

That's absurd. If God sends his Spirit, then no miracles would be needed, according to you.

In addition, Jesus does not say, "If I had performed those miracles and also had the Spirit's assistance, they would have repented."

No, he only mentions one thing: If the miracles had been performed there they would have repented. Your whole theory is based upon believing in what was not said and rejecting what was said.

 

[webdog]

You will have to make up your mind as to who is Sovereign in Salvation, God or man. If God elects a man to Salvation in Christ because that man, of his on volition believes, then Man not God, is Sovereign in Salvation!

I really wish this strawman would be banned from the BB...it's so played out, Bret Favre looks like a rookie!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Judas repented and hung himself!

It does not say he repented.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

 

[Winman]

God gave plenty of warnings to Tyre and Sidon in the OT. And I think the scriptures show that God knows just how much space to repent he gives a person or people.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

God here gave Jezebel space to repent. Whether he showed her miracles or what, I do not know. But she would not repent of her fornication.

But notice that God is still allowing those who committed fornication with Jezebel to repent in vs. 22. So, I think it is clear that God decides how much space to repent he allows a person.

But God clearly warned Tyre and Sidon several times by various prophets in the OT.

 

[BaptistBob]

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

I stand corrected,as far as the particular English translation you used. The verb is not the one usually associated with repentance (metanoein), but is one usually associated with regret or changing of the mind (used also in 21:29, 32). He regretted his decision (for whatever reasons).

However, Jesus is not calling them to merely regret. They will not go to heaven ("go up to the sky") because they did not repent. It is clear what he is talking about.

 

[OldRegular]

Well, I know Charles Spurgeon was a great preacher, but he was a man, and a man can be in error. And I see several errors in that sermon.

I can see it now: Winman the Prince of Preachers.