Arguments for a Post Trib. Rap.

[Me4Him]

Matt. 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Matt. 24 is clearly speaking of Christ returning for His elect (rapture).

After the tribulation, Jesus returns for His elect.

It is very plain. I don't see how you can view it any other way.

peace to youraying:

Have you ever heard the ol saying, "The devil is in the details"??

Jesus said he would personally return and receive us to "HIMSELF", so how could would he send "Angels"???

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the "DAY OF CHRIST" is at hand.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud,(of witnesses) and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Re 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.


Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Re 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

Re 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


Now, let's look the "DAY OF THE LORD", or Jesus's "SECOND COMING".

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.


Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the (Angel) reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


In the "Rapture", Jesus reaps, the "Righteous" leave the earth, followed by Tribulation.

Jesus's return, Angels reap, the "SINNERS" (tares) leave the earth, followed by the "MK".

In the rapture, dead come out of their graves and go to heaven,

Jesus's return, no dead come out of the grave, tares are cast into hell with the unsaved dead who stay dead until the GWT,

All deceased/Rapture Souls return with Jesus, the OT saints Jesus took to heaven when he ascended, deceased/Rapture church, soul killed during the trib and under the altar,

no righteous souls are still in the grave at this time, so none come out of the grave, only the "LIVING" righteous (Wheat) is on the earth.

1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

In case you missed it, at Jesus's return, what the scriptures call the "First Resurrection", no soul is resurrected "from the grave",

All "Souls" return with Jesus.

Resurrection, as used by scripture, means to be "BACK ON THE EARTH, ALIVE", from either the Grave or Heaven,

In the "RAPTURE", no one is "RESURRECTED", they go directly to heaven, they're not "back on the earth, alive".

The Rapture/First Resurrection are two very different events marking the start and end of the Tribulation period.


Pay attention to the "DETAILS", you can't read the Bible like any other book and understand it. :thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

The above is an example of utter confusion.

 

[canadyjd]

First I wasn't trying to make a theological case I was just explaining the dispensational view. Second I fail to understand your post for the most part.

The OP asked (words to the effect) if those who hold to a post trib. rapture have any scripture to support their view.

I quoted Matt. 24. Jesus very plainly says that "after the tribulation" He will return and collect the elect from the earth.

That seems to me to be very clear concerning a post tribulation rapture.

I understand the dispensational view (muliple "comings", "mid-air" coming but not all the way to the earth and such) that attempts to explain Matt. 24 in such a way to support the pre-trib. view.

I simply disagree, but thanks for the input.

peace to youraying:

 

[Me4Him]

I quoted Matt. 24. Jesus very plainly says that "after the tribulation" He will return and collect the elect from the earth.

That seems to me to be very clear concerning a post tribulation rapture.

I understand the dispensational view (muliple "comings", "mid-air" coming but not all the way to the earth and such) that attempts to explain Matt. 24 in such a way to support the pre-trib. view.

I simply disagree, but thanks for the input.

peace to youraying:

Jesus "NEVER" mentioned the Rapture, it wasn't revealed until "Paul" revealed it.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The "Day of the Lord", Jesus second coming is mentioned throughout the OT,

but Israel never heard of a "Day of Christ", the Rapture, from Jesus or the OT.

The reason Paul said it was a "Mystery".

If the "Day of the Lord" and the "Day of Christ" are the same event, how do you account for one being a mystery not revealed in the OT and the other revealed????

 

[webdog]

The OP asked (words to the effect) if those who hold to a post trib. rapture have any scripture to support their view.

I quoted Matt. 24. Jesus very plainly says that "after the tribulation" He will return and collect the elect from the earth.

That seems to me to be very clear concerning a post tribulation rapture.

I understand the dispensational view (muliple "comings", "mid-air" coming but not all the way to the earth and such) that attempts to explain Matt. 24 in such a way to support the pre-trib. view.

I simply disagree, but thanks for the input.

peace to youraying:

Jesus said He would send angels to do this...He never He would do this.

 

[webdog]

As a historical premillenialist I only believe in one second Coming.

I don't see the dispensational, pre-tribulational view through my study of Scripture.

Since this is a (supposed) heretical view for some around here I'll simply state my beliefs above and step away.

Question...do you (or any amill or post tribber) consider Christ's birth and return after the grave His first coming, or was His return after His defeat of death (when He was with the Father for the duration) considered two comings? If it's the first...why is there such a problem for your camp's view of the rapture and Christ's physical return to the Mount of Olives only one "coming"? It really makes no sense...

 

[stilllearning]

Hello canadyjd

You said.......

“I quoted Matt. 24. Jesus very plainly says that "after the tribulation" He will return and collect the elect from the earth.”

Well the exact Scripture, that you are quoting is........
Matthew 24:30-31
V.30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
V.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--------------------------------------------------
I see this passage, clearly supporting my position:

Indeed there will only be “one second Coming”, as has been said;
And this passage clearly describes it.

The Lord coming back in power and glory, and the entire world seeing Him....
(This is hardly returning, like “a thief in the night”!)
--------------------------------------------------
But like you, I do not wish to cause any trouble;
We have differing opinions, and that is just fine.

But the purpose of the OP, was to encourage some who hold an apposing point of view, to share the Scripture that they use to support their view, so we could discuss it.
(“You know, as iron sharpeneth iron”.)


Hope to talk to you again.

 

[OldRegular]

Actually the Bible only speaks of one return at the end of time as we know it. Folks have just read passages that use different words to describe the event and assumed two or more comings, returns, whatever!

 

[Me4Him]

Actually the Bible only speaks of one return at the end of time as we know it. Folks have just read passages that use different words to describe the event and assumed two or more comings, returns, whatever!

Post #16 and #21 both explain the "PRE trib rapture",

#16, one of the reasons "WHY" it's "PRE"

and #21, "HOW" it's accomplished.

You view scripture as a "Cobweb" of doctrines/verses, independent from other scriptures,

rather than having an "ORDER" to them that contributes to explaining the "WHOLE" Bible.

In other words, your doctrine is out of "CONTEXT" with the rest of scripture.

 

[OldRegular]

Post #16 and #21 both explain the "PRE trib rapture",

#16, one of the reasons "WHY" it's "PRE"

and #21, "HOW" it's accomplished.

If they are your posts they create nothing but confusion! Sorry!

You view scripture as a "Cobweb" of doctrines/verses, independent from other scriptures,

The Bible speaks of two resurrections. The first was that of Jesus Christ; the second will occur on His return as described in John 5:28, 29.

It is the dispensationalist who makes a cobweb out of Scripture. Every time they see the word resurrection they invent a new one.

John F. Walvoord, the preeminent dispensational theologian, and former president of the Dallas Theological Seminary finds seven resurrections. The following information is excerpted from Walvoord's Major Bible Prophecies, page 376ff.

The Origin of the First Resurrection

The term “the first resurrection” is found in Revelation 20:5-6: “[The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.] This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”

Theologians who attempt to put all the resurrections together into one grand resurrection at the end of the present age find in the expression “the first resurrection” sufficient proof that there is no previous resurrection. It does not take much investigation of Scripture, however, to find that this is a false deduction. Several resurrections precede that which is called “the first resurrection.” This becomes evident when the order of the various resurrections is laid out.


The Order of Resurrections

Though there are numerous restorations to life in both the Old and New Testaments, resurrection in the sense of being given a resurrection body that will last forever did not occur until Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. His resurrection is the first resurrection [Matthew 28:1 -7; Mark 16:1-11; Luke 24:1-12; John 20:1-18].

The second resurrection is recorded in Matthew 27:50-53. The Scriptures declare that when the earthquake occurred at the time of Christ’s resurrection, tombs were broken open and bodies of holy people who had died were raised to life. Later, after Christ was raised from the dead, a number of these individuals were seen in Jerusalem. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people [vv 51-53]. The sequence of events seems to be that at the time of the earthquake when Christ died the tombs were broken open - that is, unsealed. The resurrection and the appearance of the people who were raised from the tombs, however, did not occur until after Jesus’ resurrection.

The third resurrection will occur in connection with the rapture of the church [1 Thessalonians. 4:13-18; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:50-53]. At the Rapture “the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” [1 Thess. 4:16-17]. This resurrection apparently refers to everyone who is baptized into the body of Christ from the Day of Pentecost until the Rapture. Old Testament saints seem to be resurrected at a later time.

The fourth resurrection is prophesied in Revelation 11. Two witnesses who will be killed for their testimony will be left lying in the streets of Jerusalem and will be raised from the dead on the third day [v. 8]. “After the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, ‘Come up here.’ And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on” [vv, 11-12].

The fifth resurrection is described in Revelation 20:4-6. As the context indicates, this resurrection has to do with the martyred dead of the Great Tribulation. John wrote, “And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years” [v. 4]. If the resurrection at the Rapture covers all of the saints of the present age since Pentecost, this resurrection relates to the saints who will die in the period between the Rapture and the Second Coming. This will include the martyred dead that are mentioned here specifically. It is amazing how scholars have ignored the plain statement of this passage and tried to make it a general resurrection of all the dead or even make it a reference to the new birth of the believer at the time of his faith in Christ.

The Scriptures here show plainly that this resurrection refers to a particular class of people who will be raised in connection with the second coming of Christ.

The sixth resurrection will be that of the Old Testament saints: “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt” [Daniel 12:2]. Though the fact that all people who die will be raised is commonly assumed in the Old Testament, there are relatively few references that speak specifically of their resurrection. This is one of the major passages.

A second major prediction of this resurrection is found in Isaiah 26:19: “But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the clew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.”

A third major reference is found in Ezekiel 37 in connection with the restoration of the children of Israel. Though the figure is largely that of the restoration of the nation of Israel, bodily resurrection is also mentioned in verses 13-14: “Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.”

According to Daniel 12:1, this resurrection will come at the close of the tribulation period described in Daniel 11:36-45: “There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered”. The resurrection is mentioned specifically in the verse that follows. Though the chronological arrangement of this passage in relation to the resurrection of the Tribulation dead is not given in Scripture, it is probable that this will follow the resurrection of the Tribulation dead, and the Old Testament saints, accordingly, will be in the sixth and final resurrection of the righteous.

The last resurrection has to do with the judgment of the Great White Throne as recorded in Revelation 20:11-15. In this resurrection all the wicked dead, who up to this time have been in Hades, will be resurrected and cast into the lake of fire.

The order of these seven resurrections should make plain that the resurrection of Revelation 20:5-6 is not first in the sense of being before all previous resurrections. If that is not the meaning, what does the term “the first resurrection” mean?

 

[webdog]

Actually the Bible only speaks of one return at the end of time as we know it. Folks have just read passages that use different words to describe the event and assumed two or more comings, returns, whatever!

I asked this yesterday, would you like to answer it?

Question...do you (or any amill or post tribber) consider Christ's birth and return after the grave His first coming, or was His return after His defeat of death (when He was with the Father for the duration) considered two comings? If it's the first...why is there such a problem for your camp's view of the rapture and Christ's physical return to the Mount of Olives only one "coming"? It really makes no sense...

 

[preachinjesus]

apologies for the delay in replying I've been about town these days...:thumbs:

Question...do you (or any amill or post tribber) consider Christ's birth and return after the grave His first coming, or was His return after His defeat of death (when He was with the Father for the duration) considered two comings? If it's the first...why is there such a problem for your camp's view of the rapture and Christ's physical return to the Mount of Olives only one "coming"? It really makes no sense...

Actually I don't regard the resurrection as a second coming. (Though some preterist friends of mine do.)

Rather the resurrection was the finalization of prophecy concerning Christ's first coming. Since Christ didn't go to Heaven once He died on the Cross there was no second return from Heaven. Once Christ ascended to Heaven (Acts 1:9) that completed the first coming of Christ.

Hope that helps...:thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

apologies for the delay in replying I've been about town these days...:thumbs:



Actually I don't regard the resurrection as a second coming. (Though some preterist friends of mine do.)

Rather the resurrection was the finalization of prophecy concerning Christ's first coming. Since Christ didn't go to Heaven once He died on the Cross there was no second return from Heaven. Once Christ ascended to Heaven (Acts 1:9) that completed the first coming of Christ.

Hope that helps...:thumbsup:

Scripture tells us that when His body went into the grave, His spirit went to Heaven ("today you will be with Me in paradise").

 

[OldRegular]

I asked this yesterday, would you like to answer it?

Question...do you (or any amill or post tribber) consider Christ's birth and return after the grave His first coming, or was His return after His defeat of death (when He was with the Father for the duration) considered two comings? If it's the first...why is there such a problem for your camp's view of the rapture and Christ's physical return to the Mount of Olives only one "coming"? It really makes no sense...

The First Coming of Jesus Christ was completed with His Ascension. The Second Coming is described a number of places in Scripture and will occur with the general resurrection of all the dead as Jesus Christ himself tells us in John 5:28, 29. There are no multiple resurrections as some dispensationalists insist, there will be no such event as the rapture, the removal of the Church, prior to the so-called great tribulation.

When Jesus Christ returns the Second time that will bring time as we know it to an end.

 

[webdog]

The First Coming of Jesus Christ was completed with His Ascension. The Second Coming is described a number of places in Scripture and will occur with the general resurrection of all the dead as Jesus Christ himself tells us in John 5:28, 29. There are no multiple resurrections as some dispensationalists insist, there will be no such event as the rapture, the removal of the Church, prior to the so-called great tribulation.

When Jesus Christ returns the Second time that will bring time as we know it to an end.

You contradict yourself. You say that Christ's birth, death (and subsequent time with the Father), His return for 40 days, and His final ascension are all the "first coming", yet Christ meeting us in the clouds (rapture) and returning with His saints must be 2 distinct "returns". Scripture is clear that the rapture, the 7 years that follow, and His return and defeat of the anti-christ are the "second coming".

 

[stilllearning]

Hello webdog

You said........

“Scripture tells us that when His body went into the grave, His spirit went to Heaven ("today you will be with Me in paradise").”

Before the Lord’s resurrection, “paradise”, was located in the heart of the earth.
(See the account, in Luke 16:19-31)

Jesus spent 72 hours in the paradise below, then when He rose from the grave He “led captivity captive”, and moved paradise(and everyone there), to heaven.

 

[webdog]

Hello webdog

You said........


Before the Lord’s resurrection, “paradise”, was located in the heart of the earth.
(See the account, in Luke 16:19-31)

Jesus spent 72 hours in the paradise below, then when He rose from the grave He “led captivity captive”, and moved paradise(and everyone there), to heaven.

That passage says nothing of paradise being in the heart of the earth. Where did you get that from? It says Lazarus went to be by Abraham's side, and since Abraham was deemed righteous, he was with God...not in the earth...but in Heaven.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello again webdog

Luke 16:19-31
V.19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
V.20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
V.21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
V.22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
V.23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
V.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
V.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
V.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
V.27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
V.28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
V.29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
V.30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
V.31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


“Abraham’s bosom” was paradise.
“hell” is hell.
And they were in the same place(below the earth), only being separated by “a great gulf”.

 

[preachinjesus]

Scripture tells us that when His body went into the grave, His spirit went to Heaven ("today you will be with Me in paradise").

I'll piggyback off an answer above and add that Scripture indicates Christ did not go, spiritually, into Heaven for three days immediately after His death:

18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God, after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm. 19 In that state He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared; in it, a few—that is, eight people —were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 22 Now that He has gone into heaven, He is at God’s right hand, with angels, authorities, and powers subjected to Him.
1 Peter 3:18-22 (HCSB)


Notice how the text goes out of its way to point out that Christ proclaimed to the "spirits in prison" and "now" had "gone into heaven."

The language is very specific.

But regardless, Scripture and prophetic Scripture is clear that Christ's first coming was from birth until ascension and there is a second, bodily coming that is awaiting. There is a distinct separation between Christ's first coming and His second coming at the end of the age. Scripture is too specific about that. It isn't a good foil against historic premillenialism.

 

[OldRegular]

That passage says nothing of paradise being in the heart of the earth. Where did you get that from? It says Lazarus went to be by Abraham's side, and since Abraham was deemed righteous, he was with God...not in the earth...but in Heaven.

I agree, and once more I agree! Need to get in 10 characters.