Arguments for a Post Trib. Rap.

[Me4Him]

Darrenss1,

How can you be sure that "Tribulation saints" will have another second chance to be saved during so called, "seven year of Tribulation Period" after they "miss" Rapture passed? You have to prove us a verse to support your opinion.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

During the Trib, Israel/world goes back under the "LAW" and prophets system of leadership, Jesus/comforter/church/Grace period over/gone.

Adultery/fornication is a "death sentence" under the law,

Israel has committed "Spiritual Adultery/fornication", whoring after "other gods", rejecting Jesus.

As "Chastisement" their "Stripes" will be a literal death of the flesh if they chose to be saved during the trib, Jesus suffer this chastisement for Church/believers, the reason we're rapture.

God was married to Israel, but divorced them, Paul said they would have to become "DEAD TO THE LAW" if they wanted to be married to Jesus,

and during the trib it will be a "literal death". should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one (son/Jesus) should have his father's wife. (God/Israel)

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Born again=New creature, free from the law to marry another.

I'd suggest a study of Chastisement with a "ROD" if you want to understand the trib.

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff (power/authority) in their hand is mine indignation.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me4Him,

How can you prove that "saints" of Rev. 13:5,7 will MISS 'rapture' and will be saved during period, so called, "seven year of Tribulation period".

Secondly, please can you show us where in Bible saying that 'rapture' will be occur 3 1/2 years or 7 seven years earlier PRIOR "His Coming"?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me4Him,

You say:

During the Trib, Israel/world goes back under the "LAW" and prophets system of leadership, Jesus/comforter/church/Grace period over/gone

Where you get these come from? Show me where in Bible that supports your comment?

Remember, when Christ was on earth 2,000 years ago. During Lord's supper, Christ took a cup of wine, and saying this is the new testament. I ask you a question, what is "new testament"?

When Christ was on the cross, he drunk vinegar and he yelled, "It is Finished!" That means, all Old Testament propheices were fulfilled which concerning of Messiah's sufferings. And suddenly the veil of the temple was tore down from top to bottom (Matt. 27:51), it shows that God doesn't need daily sacrifices anymore, and He doesn't need physical temple again anymore. Because Christ is now our sacrifice, and also he is our Temple.

I suggest you to read Hebrews chapter 8 to chapter 10 talking about new covenant. In Heb. 8:13 tells us that the first old covenant is already vanished away, we are no longer under the old covenant economy system anymore. Because Chist is the sacrifice, His blood is holy and perfect to make atonement for all our sins at once on the cross. That means, we do not need another earthly daily sacrifices, physically building of temple anymore. Now Christ is our sacrifice, and He is our temple. We are the priests, we have the rights to ask Christ to forgive us our sins 24 hours daily. Also, we are no longer under 500 laws or Torah. Because Christ came to fulfilled them, that these are the shadows which speaking of Jesus Christ. We do not need 500 laws no more. Christ is the answer.

Holy Spirit will never leave us till the end of the world according Matt. 28:20- "Lo, I am always with you till the end of the world". Christ always with the Church till the end of the world. Grace always present with us, even Christians already faced many horrible persecutions in the past, and today too. Grace shall always present within Church in the future, even, the persecutions continue hit Christians, Grace will always be right there till Christ comes with his angels at the end, then the time for the judgment come upon the world, the grace/gospel shall be done according 2 Cor. 6:2. 2 Cor. 6:2 telling us, it is NOW time for anyone to accept the gospel of Salvation. But, when once Christ comes with his angels, then the gospel will be finished, time for angels to grab all unsaved as thief for to judge them according Matt 24:39-42; Luke 17:34-37; Matt. 25:31-33.

It will be too late for unsaved people to repent once AFTER Christ appears with his angels. They will going to face their final eternity destiny - lake of fire follow at His coming. There will be no other second chance for them to be saved after Christ's coming.

By the way, I want to say something on 144,000 of Revelation 7. These are speaking of Jews were all already redeemed during Early Church history in the First Century. THEN Gentiles of Rev. 7:9-17 became saved. As as what Paul said of Romans 1:16 telling us, the gospel was brought to the Jews first, THEN Gentiles. Romans 1:16 telling the same thing of Revelation chapter 7.

There is no biblical states that 144,000 "Jewish evangelists" shall spread the gospel over the world follow AFTER 'rapture' past. That is man-making doctrine.

Revelation chapter pictured of the history that Jews were sealed(saved) first(Rev. 7:1-8), THEN Gentiles got sealed later(Rev. 7:9-17), and this is the picture of Church is raptured right after the sixth seal broken(Rev. 6:12-15) same with Matt. 24:29-31.

Understand clear?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him,

You say:



Where you get these come from? Show me where in Bible that supports your comment?

Remember, when Christ was on earth 2,000 years ago. During Lord's supper, Christ took a cup of wine, and saying this is the new testament. I ask you a question, what is "new testament"?

When Christ was on the cross, he drunk vinegar and he yelled, "It is Finished!" That means, all Old Testament propheices were fulfilled which concerning of Messiah's sufferings. And suddenly the veil of the temple was tore down from top to bottom (Matt. 27:51), it shows that God doesn't need daily sacrifices anymore, and He doesn't need physical temple again anymore. Because Christ is now our sacrifice, and also he is our Temple.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

You covered a lot of territory, so let's stay focus on this.

Do you know why the OT system of leadership, the "Law and prophets" stopped with John/Jesus??

You'll have to understand that first.

"under the law", adultery was "JUDGED" and was a death sentence, but Jesus didn't Judge/condemn the woman caught in the act of adultery, "WHY"???

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

We're under a "Grace Period", free from the "judgment/condemnation" of the law, for the time being,

This is why Jesus didn't "Enforce" the "law of Moses" on the woman caught in adultery.

We can not be "under the law" and in a "Grace period" at the same time, this is why the L/P system stopped with Jesus.

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, (by Jesus/Comforter)

During the first 69 week of Daniel's prophecy, Israel was under the "L/P" system, and they will be during the Trib,

This is evident by them "literally dying", (as the law requires) for having committed "Spiritual adultery", whoring after other gods, and rejecting God, i.e Jesus.

Just as the L/P system stopped when Jesus came and the Grace period started,

The Grace period will have to stop (Rapture) before the L/P system starts again.

Under Grace, it's easy to drink the "FRESH WATER" (doctrine) Jesus give "US", we only have to "Spiritual crucify" the "body of sin", since Jesus suffer the "Stripes" of "Chastisement" for "US".

but, during the trib that "SAME WATER" will be so "SALTY" it will be hard to drink.

being saved then will mean the "LITERAL DEATH" of the "body of sin", the AC will literally kill you,

this is "Chastisment/Stripes" from "GOD'S ROD" (AC) in their flesh for their "Spiritual adultery".

fresh water (Grace period) and "salt water" (under the law) can't flow from the same "FOUNTAIN" (God) at the same time.

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, (Israel) my brethren, bear olive berries? (Christians) either a vine, (Jesus) figs? (Israel) so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. (at the same time)

Going back under the L/P and tribulation is God's way of bring Israel to Jesus, and finishing Daniel's prophecy, as it started, "under the law".

This is why the "He" (comforter/rapture) is taken out of the way before the AC is revealed, and why Israel is blinded "UNTIL" the Grace period is over, "fulness of the Gentile".

Now let me ask you a question,

if the rebuild temple isn't a "HOLY" place, why would it be an abomination to God for the AC to sit in it,

would it be an abomination to God if the AC sat in "McDonald's"?? :laugh:

The OT sacrifices wasn't acceptable for salvation, and neither will the sacrifices of the trib,

other than the sacrifice of their "body of sin".

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

And I expect many of them will literally be crucified during the Trib, as the AC "Mocks God".

 

[DHK]

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one (son/Jesus) should have his father's wife. (God/Israel)

This allegorization of such Scriptures leads to blasphemy. Look at the context. "such as is not so much as named among the Gentiles--incest!!

Is this what you accuse Christ of?
Did and does Jesus have a relationship with Israel.
Does our heavenly Father have a wife? That is blasphemy!
Will our Father some day be married to Israel? In the OT he used that analogy of God being married to Israel, and divorcing her. But it was an analogy.
There are so many things in your allegorization here that have run amuck that it is hardly worth discussing. However, it is not a Biblical comparison, to say the least.

 

[Me4Him]

This allegorization of such Scriptures leads to blasphemy. Look at the context. "such as is not so much as named among the Gentiles--incest!!

You're right, that's why they have to become a "new creature", the old man crucified, "Dead",

Is this what you accuse Christ of?
Did and does Jesus have a relationship with Israel.
Does our heavenly Father have a wife? That is blasphemy!
Will our Father some day be married to Israel? In the OT he used that analogy of God being married to Israel, and divorcing her. But it was an analogy.
There are so many things in your allegorization here that have run amuck that it is hardly worth discussing. However, it is not a Biblical comparison, to say the least.

God said he was married to Israel, and Israel is the "Woman" that gave birth to the man child, Jesus,

That makes God's wife, Israel, Jesus's Mother.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Under the law, a woman can't be "married to another" unless her spouse has died, God, in the form of Jesus (Son) did die,

but God, (Father) won't take Israel back as his wife under the Old system, they too will have to "die" and become a "new creature", "born again" to be "married to another", Jesus.

Ro 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; (born again) that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Israel rejected the marriage invitation from Jesus, preferring the marriage to God instead of Jesus, that's why God turn them over to satan for the destruction of the flesh (death) during the trib, that they might be married to another.



1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.


5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Sure it's all an analogy, but you can learn a lot from these marriage laws.

 

[DHK]

You're right, that's why they have to become a "new creature", the old man crucified, "Dead",

God said he was married to Israel, and Israel is the "Woman" that gave birth to the man child, Jesus,

That makes God's wife, Israel, Jesus's Mother.

Then God (the triune Godhead); for God is one, according to you would be polygamous.

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

--Jesus was speaking of John the Baptist, the last of the OT prophets. He is only a friend of the bridegroom.
The bride of Christ is the church. God does not have more than one wife.
Israel will not be part of the bride. John will not be part of the bride, only a friend of the bridegroom.
Only the redeemed from Pentecost onward will make up the bride of Christ.

God does not have two wives. You imply that he does.
Or is Jesus not God?

 

[canadyjd]

Hello again canadyjd

I will be glad, to answer your 3 questions.....as best as I can.

stilllearning; Thank you for answering each question. Please let me show you why your interpretation is in error.

My 1st question concerned who was Jesus referring to when He said "they shall deliver you up to be afflicted....."

You responded:

stilllearning said:
From the context in this chapter, I would say that here, Jesus is talking about the 144,000 Jews, that will be targeted by the anti-Christ, during the 2nd half of the tribulation period.

There is no mention of "144,000 Jews" anywhere in Matt.

The context is clear. Jesus was speaking to His disciples, and told them that "you" would suffer.

That is consistent with the theme Jesus began in Chap. 5 that His disciples would suffer persecution.

My second question concerned those who would endure to the end, and thus be saved.

stilllearning said: Those that endure to the end(in this passage), are those Jews that survive the tribulation.
(Those Jews who do not worship the anti-Christ, and are killed by him!)

Again, the context is plain. Those that endure to the end are identified as the disciples of Jesus.

My 3rd question concerned the "elect" who were gathered after the tribulation.

stilllearning said:
I would have to say, from the context of the rest of this chapter, that this is talking about the all those who had been chosen for salvation, during the tribulation.

And here we agree, at least in part. It is all those chosen for salvation, those who have believed. Those who are followers of Jesus Christ. Not just in the tribulation, but from all time.

To make it a different people from those already mentioned does harm to context.

And so, I have one final thing to say.

I appreciate your kind spirit in which you post. It is refreshing.

Nevertheless, you are clearly attempting to make Matt. 24 fit your theology, instead of simply letting the passage speak for itself.

Jesus says after the tribulation He will return with the shout of the trumpet (clearly the Day of the Lord) and gather His elect from earth.

That supports a post trib. rapture.

peace to youraying:

 

[Me4Him]

Then God (the triune Godhead); for God is one, according to you would be polygamous.

God does not have two wives. You imply that he does.
Or is Jesus not God?

I said:

Under the law, a woman can't be "married to another" unless her spouse has died, God, in the form of Jesus (Son) did die,

but God, (Father) won't take Israel back as his wife under the Old system, they too will have to "die" and become a "new creature", "born again" to be "married to another", Jesus.

God/Israel, both die, the "Old" (testament/Covenant) has passed away,

Re 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

Under the "LAW" (and prophet) system Jesus couldn't be married to his "Mother", God's wife,

If the "husband" dies, (God/i.e Jesus) the woman is free to marry another,

but married to Jesus is also the death of the "old man", a "New creature", "Born again",

The law is not violated, both Husband/wife, having died, are essentially "NEW CREATURES".

It explain how Israel, being married to God the Father, can be married to God the Son, without violating the marriage laws.

Of course Israel rejected the invitation to be married to Jesus, the reason God turns them over to satan.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[DHK]

I said:

Under the law, a woman can't be "married to another" unless her spouse has died, God, in the form of Jesus (Son) did die,

Impossible, if not heretical.
God cannot die. He never died, and never will. God is; always was; always will be. He never ceased from being.
--Thus your reading into Scripture only produces heresy. This is the weakness of allegorization. It produces heresy that denies the very truths of Scripture.

but God, (Father) won't take Israel back as his wife under the Old system, they too will have to "die" and become a "new creature", "born again" to be "married to another", Jesus.

Jesus is not "another." He is God. The same God of the OT is the same God of the NT. There is no difference. Israel does not morph into the church, or does not die and become the church. The two are entirely different entities. Many Israelites became saved. When they did they became Christians. They left their old religion behind. They could not be a part of both at the same time. They were either a follower of Judaism or a follower of Christ; one or the other. However Judaism still exists today. There is only one way to be saved today, and that is through Christ. Israel, however, still exists. They exist as an unbelieving nation.
Concerning Jesus, the Bible says:
Jesus, the same; yesterday, today and forever. He never changes. He was the same Jesus in the OT, as He is in the NT.

God/Israel, both die, the "Old" (testament/Covenant) has passed away,

God never died! Where do you get this from. It is impossible for God to die. Neither has Israel died, but only for a short season, been "set on a shelf," so to speak.

Re 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

What are you inferring here? That God is a thing??

Under the "LAW" (and prophet) system Jesus couldn't be married to his "Mother", God's wife,

Jesus doesn't have a mother. Are you a Roman Catholic? God doesn't have a wife, per se. The bride is the church.

If the "husband" dies, (God/i.e Jesus) the woman is free to marry another,

God never dies. It is impossible for God to die.

but married to Jesus is also the death of the "old man", a "New creature", "Born again",

The Bible does not teach this. The Bible simply teaches that the church is the bride of Christ and that is all. It teaches that John the Baptist (representative of Israel) is a friend of the bridegroom, and thus Israel is not the bride, not the wife, and was never married, and never died. Your allegorization only pulls you into heresy.

The law is not violated, both Husband/wife, having died, are essentially "NEW CREATURES".

God cannot die. God never became a new creature. This is heresy.

It explain how Israel, being married to God the Father, can be married to God the Son, without violating the marriage laws.

Israel is not married to God. In the OT, that was an example; an anthropormorphism, if you will--to help man to understand the relationship that one could have with God. To illustrate the same truth he told Hosea to go and marry a prostitute.

Of course Israel rejected the invitation to be married to Jesus, the reason God turns them over to satan.

Israel rejected Christ as their Messiah; and the kingdom that he was willing to offer them. It was not an invitation for marriage. God did not turn them over to Satan.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This is speaking of local church discipline and has nothing to do with Israel. Your allegorization simply leads you into heresy.

Do you believe in the trinity; that the trinity is and was present in every age.
Do you believe in the deity of Christ; that Christ was God in the OT, just as much as he was in the NT?
Please answer.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DHK,

Amen. Well saying. :saint:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[OldRegular]

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one (son/Jesus) should have his father's wife. (God/Israel)

I normally don't read the disjointed nonsense you post. Given the above statement I know why! Blasphemy!

 

[DHK]

I normally don't read the disjointed nonsense you post. Given the above statement I know why! Blasphemy!

And for that reason he/she is gone.
I believe the me4him was a Oneness Pentecostal posing as Baptist.

 

[webdog]

And for that reason he/she is gone.
I believe the me4him was a Oneness Pentecostal posing as Baptist.

Pretty harsh charge to make, particularly when he can't speak for himself.

 

[stilllearning]

This OP, has accomplished, what it was suppose to accomplish.
-------------------------
We have covered a lot of issues, concerning our Lord’s return, yet no one has shown me from Scripture, any evidence that refutes a pre-tribulation rapture.

They simply say, “my study of Scripture has convinced me, or somebodies book has convinced me”.

That is just fine.
--------------------------------------------------
My intent all along, was not to try and turn others from their belief’s, but to make sure that I wasn’t making a mistake, by missing something in Scripture.


Thanks to everyone, that participated.

 

[DHK]

Pretty harsh charge to make, particularly when he can't speak for himself.

His posts speak for themselves. He made many posts that either questioned or denied the trinity. Just recently he was posting that God was dead. His last post was full of heresy. If you do a search on his posts you can determine what he believed for yourself.

 

[canadyjd]

This OP, has accomplished, what it was suppose to accomplish.
-------------------------
We have covered a lot of issues, concerning our Lord’s return, yet no one has shown me from Scripture, any evidence that refutes a pre-tribulation rapture.

They simply say, “my study of Scripture has convinced me, or somebodies book has convinced me”.

Brother, that is simply untrue.

I have shown you the following:

1. That the Gospel of Matt. demonstrates, as a major theme, that the followers of Jesus will suffer persecution.

2. That when Jesus says in Matt. 24 that "you" shall suffer persecution, He is speaking of His followers/disciples suffering persecution during the great tribulation period.

3. That when Jesus says "after the tribulation of those days" He is speaking of the persecution that will occur to His followers in the end times.

4. That when Jesus says He will return to collect His elect after that tribulation period, He is referring to the rapture of His disciples that occurs at His return.

Now, brother, you have stated that you believe Jesus is referring to the "144,000" Jews of revelation. There is absolutely no evidence in the context of Matt. 24 that Jesus is referring to anyone other than His disciples.

You may, of course, believe what you like.

But please do not say no one has shown you from scripture evidence of post tribulation rapture because I clearly have.

peace to youraying:

 

[stilllearning]

Hello canadyjd

Sorry, I missed the point that you were making.
--------------------------------------------------
In determining exactly who the Lord was talking about, in Matthew 24;, you must keep it in context.

You contend, that since Jesus was talking to the disciples, than He must have been saying that the Church, is going to suffer persecution during the tribulation.
But at that time, His disciples, were Jews, and not members of the Church at all, because the Church did not even exist yet.

When I said that no one had given me any evidence, that refuted a pre-tribulation rapture; I was talking about “clear evidence”; Like the Scriptures, that I have presented.
--------------------------------------------------
I am aware, that this question isn’t all that important, and that two brothers in Christ can have differing opinions about it.

But I am(as always) aware, that I have not arrived yet, and that I may not be right in every area; therefore, “if I am wrong” about my view of eschatology, than I would like to get it right, before stand before the Lord.
--------------------------------------------------
If you have other passages of Scripture, that point toward a post-tribe. rapture, then please share them with me.

 

[canadyjd]

You contend, that since Jesus was talking to the disciples, than He must have been saying that the Church, is going to suffer persecution during the tribulation.

But at that time, His disciples, were Jews, and not members of the Church at all, because the Church did not even exist yet.

What I said was that His disciples will suffer persecution during the great tribulation and that His disciples will be raptured at His return.

If the church did not exist yet (that is debatable, since Jesus speaks of the "church" in Matt. 18:17), it doesn't matter, since Jesus is speaking of future events.

Nearly every Christian disciple for the 1st couple of decades after Christ ascension were Jews.

peace to youraying:

 

[stilllearning]

Hi canadyjd

I think, that more we talk, the better we understand each others position.
--------------------------------------------------
You said........

“Nearly every Christian disciple for the 1st couple of decades after Christ ascension were Jews.”

This may be the rub.
When I talk about the Jews, I am “not” talking about a nationality, but a religious group.

Therefore when anybody has ever become a Christian, they stop being a Jew or a Gentile.
(Even though they may be a Jewish person.)
--------------------------------------------------
You also said.......

“What I said was that His disciples will suffer persecution during the great tribulation and that His disciples will be raptured at His return.”

In saying this, you have gotten us back on track.
The question being discussed here, is “when will the Church be raptured”.

You will notice, that I keep referring to “the Church”, and not “his disciples” or “God’s people”.
It is “the Church”, that will be raptured, while the rest of “God’s people”(the Jews), are not going to be raptured.

Therefore, when the Bible talks about God’s people being persecuted during the tribulation period, it is not talking about the Church, but the Jews.
--------------------------------------------------
And here is just one of the points that I have been making;
(For what reason, would God allow the Church, to go through the tribulation period?)

We can clearly see a reason for God’s people the Jews, going through a seven year tribulation period, but I can’t find one Scripture, that explains why we would.

You see, God has a purpose for EVERYTHING that He does!