Arguments for a Post Trib. Rap.

[canadyjd]

......The question being discussed here, is “when will the Church be raptured”.

You will notice, that I keep referring to “the Church”, and not “his disciples” or “God’s people”.

It is “the Church”, that will be raptured, while the rest of “God’s people”(the Jews), are not going to be raptured.

Therefore, when the Bible talks about God’s people being persecuted during the tribulation period, it is not talking about the Church, but the Jews.

But that is not what the passage says.

The passage (Matt. 24) says that the disciples of Jesus will suffer persecution during the tribulation period, and that after that tribulation period, Jesus will return and collect His "elect" from the earth. People are His disciples/elect (and saved) or they are not His disciples (and are lost).

Jesus doesn't make a distinction between the "church" and the "Jews" as you are doing. In fact, scripture is clear that the purpose of Christ's suffering on the cross to make the two groups, jew and gentile, into one new man.

Paul tells us that Jesus' work on the cross brought peace, abolished the law, and made the two groups (Jew and Gentile) into one new man in Christ, and reconciled both to God the Father by Holy Spirit. (Eph. 2)

For what you are saying to be true, the work Jesus did on the cross would have to be undone. The peace that Jesus' work on the cross accomplished must be broken. The one new man must be split asunder and the reconciliation of both groups to God the Father must be rescinded.

Such thinking must be rejected.

We can clearly see a reason for God’s people the Jews, going through a seven year tribulation period, but I can’t find one Scripture, that explains why we would.

Jesus said on many occasions that His disciples would suffer persecution. It is a major theme throughout the New Testament. Here is a sample:

Matt. 5:10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. (11)Blessed are you when men cast insults at you, and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me."

John 15:19-20 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. (20) Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master'. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you....."

Clearly, those who follow Jesus can expect to be persecuted.

peace to youraying:

 

[Allan]

But that is not what the passage says.

The passage (Matt. 24) says that the disciples of Jesus will suffer persecution during the tribulation period, and that after that tribulation period, Jesus will return and collect His "elect" from the earth. People are His disciples/elect (and saved) or they are not His disciples (and are lost).

Jesus doesn't make a distinction between the "church" and the "Jews" as you are doing. In fact, scripture is clear that the purpose of Christ's suffering on the cross to make the two groups, jew and gentile, into one new man.

Paul tells us that Jesus' work on the cross brought peace, abolished the law, and made the two groups (Jew and Gentile) into one new man in Christ, and reconciled both to God the Father by Holy Spirit. (Eph. 2)

For what you are saying to be true, the work Jesus did on the cross would have to be undone. The peace that Jesus' work on the cross accomplished must be broken. The one new man must be split asunder and the reconciliation of both groups to God the Father must be rescinded.

Such thinking must be rejected.Jesus said on many occasions that His disciples would suffer persecution. It is a major theme throughout the New Testament. Here is a sample:

Matt. 5:10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. (11)Blessed are you when men cast insults at you, and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me."

John 15:19-20 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. (20) Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master'. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you....."

Clearly, those who follow Jesus can expect to be persecuted.

peace to youraying:

Just a quick note : Persecution is not the same thing as The tribulation period. 'The tribulation' is the judgment of God being poured out upon the whole world/unbelieving mankind. Persecution is mans attempt to put down, disgrace, put them aside/away, hurt or even kill another person.

The question I 'think' being asked by 'stillearning' is since the great tribulation is God pouring out His wrath unmixed upon the world, why would the church go through it? Especially when expressly states that believers will be saved/delivered from His wrath 'to come' (1 Thes 1:10). And we see in Rev 6:17 which is seen as the physical beginning of the Trib period by the opening of the first seal :

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Also lest we forget the passage that states 'we' (believers/the Church) have not been appointed unto [His] wrath, which is speaking about the Lords coming which shall be as 'labor pain' of a pregnant woman - fast/sudden, consistant, and pressing ever more quickly toward the appointed time of delivery. IF the above passages are true, that we are to be delivered or saved FROM His wrath 'to come', and Rev 6 (the beginning of the great Trib) states the great day of His wrath 'HAS come' what are we to then conclude about the Church and it's deliverance from God's wrath?



On another note, it why the book of Danial does not record the event as the tribulation or His wrath toward the Jews since that is judgment and is against the world of ungodliness, but instead depicts this time in relation to the ethnic Jews known as the 'time of Jacobs trouble'. God though pouring out His righteous indignation against all ungodliness will also be bringing His chosen people group of old, once again and finally/fully as a people back unto Himself (salvation - Rom 11) the same way He always did, through great trials and hardships 'as a people'.

And therefore the opposite is true of the Ethinic Jews who will go through that time as stated in Danial

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book

The tribulation of the world and the trouble/trials/turmoil that the Jews will have to endure are nothing the world nor the Jews have ever seen or endured yet. But it is at/during that time this people (ethnic Jews) will be delivered- and everyone everyone who does is to also be found in the book of life. That means none that are not saved will not make it through and of those who were, they are martyred. Therefore Paul can state with absolute certainty as he does in Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Therefore Israel must go through the Tribulation because they will begin in it with unbelief as the rest of the world. And in that time great troubles will come upon them as prophesied which they historically had never known as a people, but God through much grace and mercy will bring them through as a people/nation and save them, and bring to pass the promises of old made to them.

In short - we WILL have and be persecuted but we will NOT go through the time of Tribulation (His appointed wrath yet to come) because we/believers have not been 'appointed' unto His wrath but shall be delivered/saved FROM it.

Sorry, it became more than a 'quick note'

 

[stilllearning]

Hello canadyjd

I only have time for one quick response.

You said......

“Paul tells us that Jesus' work on the cross brought peace, abolished the law, and made the two groups (Jew and Gentile) into one new man in Christ, and reconciled both to God the Father by Holy Spirit. (Eph. 2)”

Bible interpretation 101, reminds us that the three kinds of people talked about in the Bible are the Jews, the Gentiles and the Church of God.
And that most mis-interpretations of Scripture come about by not correctly identifying which group is being talked about.

Sure enough, the Church has been made up of both groups, but those groups still exist, and God makes it clear in Scripture, that the Jews are still His people.
--------------------------------------------------
May I ask, is this passage in Matthew 24:, the only Scripture that convinces you that the Church will be going into the tribulation period?


Got to go, see you later.

 

[canadyjd]

Bible interpretation 101, reminds us that the three kinds of people talked about in the Bible are the Jews, the Gentiles and the Church of God.
And that most mis-interpretations of Scripture come about by not correctly identifying which group is being talked about.

Brother, bible interpretation 101 should at the very least attempt to engage the text being discussed.

Scripture says both groups (specifically saying Jews and Gentiles) have been made into one new man (saints/church/believers) in Christ Jesus by His work on the cross. Scripture clearly attributes the reconciliation of Jew and Gentile into the church as a result of the work of Christ on the cross. Scripture says that because of that work of the cross, both groups have become one new man and that one new man has access to God the Father through Holy Spirit.

Again, to say there is a separate future for the Jews is to deny the work of reconciliation acomplished by Jesus on the cross or to say that work must be undone at some time in the future.

Neither "interpretation" is supported by scripture in context.

Ignoring what scripture says is not bible interpretation 101.

Sure enough, the Church has been made up of both groups, but those groups still exist, and God makes it clear in Scripture, that the Jews are still His people.

Brother, you didn't even attempt to engage the text.

If both groups still exist, why did Paul say that the two groups have been made into one group? (Eph. 2:14)

If both groups still exist, why did Paul say that Jesus made the two groups into "one new man" (Eph. 2:15)

If both groups still exist, why did Paul say that Jesus has reconciled both in "one body" to God?

May I ask, is this passage in Matthew 24:, the only Scripture that convinces you that the Church will be going into the tribulation period?

No, but Matt. 24 is very convincing evidence of post-trib. rapture.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Just a quick note : Persecution is not the same thing as The tribulation period. 'The tribulation' is the judgment of God being poured out upon the whole world/unbelieving mankind.

I believe you are wrong here, Allan. "The tribulation" period is not the same thing as God's judgment being poured out upon the world.

God's judgment comes with the coming of Jesus in the "Day of the Lord", which clearly occurs after the tribulation period.

Everything else, then, that you have written is based upon an incorrect understanding of when God's wrath occurs.

Therefore Paul can state with absolute certainty as he does in Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

You have misunderstood Romans 11. Paul is speaking of the "true Israel" that is made up of both Jew and Gentile that are "children of promise", not children of the flesh.

God, therefore, temporarily hardened the hearts of the Jews so the message of salvation through Jesus Christ would go to the Gentiles until the fullness of the Gentiles has come. At that time, the veil will be lifted from the Jews and many (perhaps even all that are then living) will realized that Jesus is their Messiah and come to faith and salvation.

Therefore, when Paul says "all Israel" will be saved, he is saying the all the children of promise (from both Jew and Gentile) will be saved.

peace to youraying:

 

[Allan]

I believe you are wrong here, Allan. "The tribulation" period is not the same thing as God's judgment being poured out upon the world.

God's judgment comes with the coming of Jesus in the "Day of the Lord", which clearly occurs after the tribulation period.

It is an intersting hypothosis but you give nothing to authenticate your position and certainly you did not interact at all with just a few of the things I gave that correlate one with another. Facts are, the day of the Lord can mean a single instant event and also a period of time, and it is refered to in other ways as well, such as the day of his 'wrath'; 'the great day of God Almighty'; the visitation;

Everything else, then, that you have written is based upon an incorrect understanding of when God's wrath occurs. You have misunderstood Romans 11. Paul is speaking of the "true Israel" that is made up of both Jew and Gentile that are "children of promise", not children of the flesh.

I had to smile when I read this. I gave only a few passages that show the day of His great wrath 'begins' prior to Christs coming. Rev 6 shows this explicitely, "the great day of His wrath has come.." but it isn't till Rev 20 that Christ comes to bring the 'final' and climactic judgment upon men. We also see that in the OT in Dan 12:1 which states there will be a time of 'trouble' such as has never been since it was a 'nation' even till that time [of trouble]. Daniel describes this time as being/lasting more than a day and the NT writer agrees and practically quotes this passage when stating:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

but the OT writer says that during this time everyone of the 'Nation' of Israel shall be delivered who is written in the book of life. Literally all those remaining alive will be saved and this is a specific prophesy relating the Nation of Israel. This is exactly what Paul states regarding the Nation in Rom 11. So it appears scripture says something different than you are from what I am seeing.

God, therefore, temporarily hardened the hearts of the Jews so the message of salvation through Jesus Christ would go to the Gentiles until the fullness of the Gentiles has come. At that time, the veil will be lifted from the Jews and many (perhaps even all that are then living) will realized that Jesus is their Messiah and come to faith and salvation.

Correct, and this transpires just prior to the Trib (time of the Gentiles ending) and their salvation (the Jewish Nation) during the Tribulation but established and proven at the return of Christ.

 

[canadyjd]

It is an intersting hypothosis but you give nothing to authenticate your position and certainly you did not interact at all with just a few of the things I gave that correlate one with another.

You are correct, I didn't engage the text. My apologies to you. The reason is that Revelation is most difficult to understand because of the way it is written. I'll do my best to address the passages.

In chp.6 the seals are opened and tribulation occurs on the earth in various ways.

The 5th seal reveals those who were slain in the tribulation because of the word of God. These are Christian martyrs that have died during the tribulation. Notice v.11

"And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also"

When the 6th seal is broken, it speaks of the wrath of the Lamb and the great day of....wrath.

So, Christian martyrs die during the tribulation, and then comes the wrath and the day of the Lord.

I gave only a few passages that show the day of His great wrath 'begins' prior to Christs coming. Rev 6 shows this explicitely, "the great day of His wrath has come.." but it isn't till Rev 20 that Christ comes to bring the 'final' and climactic judgment upon men.

Part of the problem with understanding Revelation is to take each event as a chronological order. John isn't writing a chronological order, he uses repeating themes, introducing new themes as he writes and giving more detail to issues he has already spoken on.

John gives, I believe, a summary of what he is going to speak on in chp 6 with the opening of the seals.

When the 7th seal is opened in chp. 8, we see Trumpets introduced. Each trumpet explains in further detail the things which happened with the openings of the seals of chp. 6. Same with the bowls of wrath.

To give you an example of what I mean by repeating themes, consider the martyrs. The martyrs of the tribulation are mentioned in chp. 5 and again in chap.7 including 144,000 (symbolic, undetermined number IMHO) and the uncountable multitude. They are mentioned again in Chap.14 and chap.19

In chap. 5, the martyrs ask how long will God wait to avenge their blood. In chap. 19, we see (v.2) "Because His judgements are true and righteous; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and He has avenged the blood of His bond-servants on her"

All of which points to the final judgment and Day of the Lord later in Chap.19. This theme corresponds with the wrath of the Lamb of chap. 6. v.16.

So, you see, John is writing in repeating themes, not a chronological order. Many Christians are martyred during the tribulation, and then Christ returns in His Day of Judgment.

It is a repeating theme, and consistent with Matt. 24. and other passages.

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

As a historical premillenialist I only believe in one second Coming.

I don't see the dispensational, pre-tribulational view through my study of Scripture.

Since this is a (supposed) heretical view for some around here I'll simply state my beliefs above and step away.

I am pre-trib but your view is reasonable and does not effect any other doctrine.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello canadyjd

You said........

“Scripture says both groups (specifically saying Jews and Gentiles) have been made into one new man (saints/church/believers) in Christ Jesus by His work on the cross. Scripture clearly attributes the reconciliation of Jew and Gentile into the church as a result of the work of Christ on the cross. Scripture says that because of that work of the cross, both groups have become one new man and that one new man has access to God the Father through Holy Spirit.”

So what you are saying, is that “everybody on the planet”, has been reconciled into one new man.

I believe that this is called universalism, and I am sorry to hear that you believe it.

 

[Allan]

Hello canadyjd

You said........

So what you are saying, is that “everybody on the planet”, has been reconciled into one new man.

I believe that this is called universalism, and I am sorry to hear that you believe it.

stilllearning.. that is not what he said brother. He stated specifically "Scripture clearly attributes the reconciliation of Jew and Gentile into the church as a result of the work of Christ on the cross"

Therefore to assume he is speaking of 'universalism would not be an accurate statement on your part. Now, I don't exactly agree with how he is understanding the passage but I can not say he is holding to universalism.

 

[Allan]

You are correct, I didn't engage the text. My apologies to you. The reason is that Revelation is most difficult to understand because of the way it is written. I'll do my best to address the passages.

In chp.6 the seals are opened and tribulation occurs on the earth in various ways.

The 5th seal reveals those who were slain in the tribulation because of the word of God. These are Christian martyrs that have died during the tribulation. Notice v.11

"And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also"

When the 6th seal is broken, it speaks of the wrath of the Lamb and the great day of....wrath.

So, Christian martyrs die during the tribulation, and then comes the wrath and the day of the Lord. Part of the problem with understanding Revelation is to take each event as a chronological order. John isn't writing a chronological order, he uses repeating themes, introducing new themes as he writes and giving more detail to issues he has already spoken on.

John gives, I believe, a summary of what he is going to speak on in chp 6 with the opening of the seals.

When the 7th seal is opened in chp. 8, we see Trumpets introduced. Each trumpet explains in further detail the things which happened with the openings of the seals of chp. 6. Same with the bowls of wrath.

To give you an example of what I mean by repeating themes, consider the martyrs. The martyrs of the tribulation are mentioned in chp. 5 and again in chap.7 including 144,000 (symbolic, undetermined number IMHO) and the uncountable multitude. They are mentioned again in Chap.14 and chap.19

In chap. 5, the martyrs ask how long will God wait to avenge their blood. In chap. 19, we see (v.2) "Because His judgements are true and righteous; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and He has avenged the blood of His bond-servants on her"

All of which points to the final judgment and Day of the Lord later in Chap.19. This theme corresponds with the wrath of the Lamb of chap. 6. v.16.

So, you see, John is writing in repeating themes, not a chronological order. Many Christians are martyred during the tribulation, and then Christ returns in His Day of Judgment.

It is a repeating theme, and consistent with Matt. 24. and other passages.

peace to youraying:

Before I get indepth here let me ask, why do you presume we are to read the book of Revelation can not be in chronological order, with the obvious exception of where we note flashbacks which give us better understanding of or for the secceedeing texts.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Allan

You said......

“He stated specifically "Scripture clearly attributes the reconciliation of Jew and Gentile into the church as a result of the work of Christ on the cross"
Therefore to assume he is speaking of 'universalism would not be an accurate statement on your part. Now, I don't exactly agree with how he is understanding the passage but I can not say he is holding to universalism.”

Well I was trying to give him the benefit of doubt, but in that same response, he backed up his statement with this.........

“If both groups still exist, why did Paul say that the two groups have been made into one group? (Eph. 2:14)

If both groups still exist, why did Paul say that Jesus made the two groups into "one new man" (Eph. 2:15)

If both groups still exist, why did Paul say that Jesus has reconciled both in "one body" to God?”

--------------------------------------------------
He actually doesn’t believe, that Jews nor gentiles, exist any more.

This may not be “universalism”, but what it is?

 

[Allan]

Hello Allan

You said......

Well I was trying to give him the benefit of doubt, but in that same response, he backed up his statement with this.........

--------------------------------------------------
He actually doesn’t believe, that Jews nor gentiles, exist any more.

This may not be “universalism”, but what it is?

He is speaking of both groups - in Christ or the Church, not as ethnic entities.

 

[canadyjd]

Hello canadyjd

You said........

So what you are saying, is that “everybody on the planet”, has been reconciled into one new man.

I believe that this is called universalism, and I am sorry to hear that you believe it.

I didn't say "everybody on the planet", I repeated what scripture says (which you still will not acknowledge) that Jesus reconciled Jew and Gentile by His work on the cross.

What is obvious from Eph. is that Jew and Gentile have been reconciled into one new man, that is presented to God the Father, through Holy Spirit.

That is referring to Christians. The Law has been abolished. There is no longer distinction between Jew and Gentile. When it comes to God's people, there is only the church.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Before I get indepth here let me ask, why do you presume we are to read the book of Revelation can not be in chronological order, with the obvious exception of where we note flashbacks which give us better understanding of or for the secceedeing texts.

I hesitate because Revelation is so complicated, but I'll try.

The key to understanding Revelation as a series of repeated themes is to understand the opening scene in chap. 4.

In chap. 4 we have the scene in heaven of God on His throne. This is a scene of judgment, common in the Roman Empire. Various men of influence (usually governors, kings, and occasionally the emperor) would travel "the rounds" to hold court. There, they would hear disputes and legal matters.

The details would be drawn up on scrolls, and the scrolls "sealed" with wax. The only person that could open the seal was the person whose name was written on it, or their representative.

The matters most serious (death penalty cases and Wills) had seven seals. Each seal had a little piece of the scroll carefully hanging at the seal which revealed the contents of that section.

So, the king would give a scroll to his attendant, who would ask "who is worthy to open the seals in the matter of......." The parties involved would come forward, the seals opened in order and the matter judged by the king once all the seals were broken and the scroll could be fully read.

So, to understand Revelation, you must understand that everything revealed is occurring on the first scroll with the 7 seals of chap. 5.

Each seal revealed a little bit of what was on the scroll within, and once the 7th seal is broken, the scroll can be read completely, starting back at the 1st seal and its section.

I hope that helps.

peace to youraying:

 

[stilllearning]

Hello canadyjd

Sorry for the confusion.

You said.......

“I didn't say "everybody on the planet", I repeated what scripture says (which you still will not acknowledge) that Jesus reconciled Jew and Gentile by His work on the cross.
What is obvious from Eph. is that Jew and Gentile have been reconciled into one new man, that is presented to God the Father, through Holy Spirit.
That is referring to Christians. The Law has been abolished. There is no longer distinction between Jew and Gentile. When it comes to God's people, there is only the church.”

I agree with everything said here.

But as for your statement.......
“(which you still will not acknowledge)”

In my response #140, I said.........

“Therefore when anybody has ever become a Christian, they stop being a Jew or a Gentile. (Even though they may be a Jewish person.)”

Even though I didn’t use your exact words, this is saying that Jesus reconciled Jew and Gentile by His work on the cross.
--------------------------------------------------
So we are in agreement about this fact.

But what does this have to do with, “the timing of the rapture”?

 

[canadyjd]

.....
Even though I didn’t use your exact words, this is saying that Jesus reconciled Jew and Gentile by His work on the cross.
--------------------------------------------------
So we are in agreement about this fact.

But what does this have to do with, “the timing of the rapture”?

I think I was responding to something you said about the Jews being God's people that would suffer through the tribulation period.

I was pointing out that the Jews (or anyone else) are God's people only if they are Christians.

Such distinctions have been abolished by Christ's work on the cross.

peace to youraying:

 

[stilllearning]

The question at hand: “Are the Jews God’s people?”

--------------------------------------------------
The General answer......
Romans 11:1 ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.


Yes they are.
Romans 11:29
“For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.”

--------------------------------------------------
The Jews that joined the Church......
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant
according to the election of grace.



The elect, like Paul, got saved.
--------------------------------------------------
The fate of those who rejected Christ.......
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;
but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded



Because God made a promise to them, he blinds them during the Church age, so that He can have mercy upon them later.

Romans 11:25-26
V.25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
V.26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11:31-33
V.31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
V.32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
V.33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
--------------------------------------------------


This seems pretty clear to me.

 

[canadyjd]

The question at hand: “Are the Jews God’s people?”
--------------------------------------------------
The General answer......
Romans 11:1 ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

Yes they are............

........This seems pretty clear to me.

I have already posted on this, but I'll do it again.

Paul tells us in Romans 9 that the God's people are the "children of the promise" that are composed of both Jews and Gentiles (though not every Jew and not every Gentile).

So, the verses you quoted from chp.11 demonstrate Paul's point that God has temporarily blinded the Jews (generally) so that the gospel will go to the Gentiles. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes (all the gentiles that will be saved are saved) the veil will be lifted and the Jews (perhaps all living Jews, but more likely a substantial majority) will accept Jesus as their promised Messiah.

They will, then, become part of the Church, just as the first Jews did.

When Paul says "all Israel will be saved", He is speaking of all true Israel, those who are children of the promise made up of both Jew and Gentile.

peace to youraying:

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

The "Second Coming"

The Original post of this thread was,,,

Hello Everyone

I believe the Bible clearly teaches a Pre-Tribulation Rapture;
But having not come out of “any camp”, I am free to change my mind.

Please refresh my memory; Why should anyone, support a Post Tribulation Rapture?

Then came,,,

Perhaps you should start by defending, using Scripture, the so-called pre-trib rapture.


Based on these two posts, I submit the following.

The place to begin in defending the Pre-Trib Rapture is in its location in the sequence of events. Assuming there will be a Pre-Trib Rapture it will occur after the first coming of the Lord Jesus Christ (him coming in the flesh to “seek and to save that which was lost” a/k/a death & resurrection) but before the “traditional” Second Coming at the end of the Great Tribulation Period (which by Jesus’ own words in the Olivet Discord of the Gospels is a done deal).

All you have to do is find the “Second Coming” (at the end of the Great Tribulation) in scripture defined as such, and it being the only re-appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ (hence proving the teaching of the Rapture as an appearance of the Lord invalid).

Okay, where is the Second Coming of the Lord (The Glorious Appearing at the end of the Great Tribulation Period) define as such by name, "Second Coming"? Anyone??