Truth or Calvinism - That should do it.

[Martin]

The problem is you have no way to prove the person really is actually being drawn by the Father to believe and is refusing to agree/accept/choose to turn to God.

==I do have proof, it is the Scriptures. Those the Father draws Jesus said He WILL raise up. It is that simple.

I don't care who they are, no one can prove the reason why people aren't believing in Christ.

==Generally speaking, yes we can. The Bible says that people don't believe because they are trapped in sin (Jn 3:19-20). We cannot know why God draws one and not another, but generally speaking we do know why people reject the Gospel.

God is seeking to save, everyone and anyone included; many people resist God for whatever reason, at that stage they are not totally depraved as God is drawing them to Christ.

==Where in Scripture do you get the idea that people stop being depraved when they "resist God for whatever reason"? Better yet, what does that mean?

The fact is no one is regenerated until AFTER they are saved, being drawn bibically is when God uses revelation, the Word of God, the gospel, the Holy Spirit is conviction..etc to lead them to Christ. What they do with Christ is up to them.

==The drawing in John 6:44 is effectual, it does not fail. How do I know that? Because Jesus said so, "I will raise him up on the last day" (Jn 6:44).

 

[Amy.G]

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day" (Jn 6:44)

Who is raised up? The one who is drawn.

Is there doubt about this? No, Jesus said that He "will" raise up the one who is drawn.

No. The one who is raised up is the one who "comes to Me". He who comes to Christ will be raised up.

Who comes to Christ? Those who have listened and learned from the Father.

 

[Martin]

In John 6 Jesus is making it clear that He and the Father are one and the same. No one can come to the Son without being drawn by the Father.

Who is it that comes to the Son?

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Since Jesus is speaking to Jews, He is referring to the scriptures and the prophets. Those who believed the prophets, would come to Jesus because they had learned who the Messiah would be.

For us (gentiles), we come to the Son because of the scriptures as well and because God has revealed Himself in the creation (Rom. 1).

Those that the Father gives Jesus are the ones who have "heard" and "learned" from Him (the Father). This is because the scriptures point to Jesus as the Messiah. One only has to believe the word of God and God the Father will give them to the Son.

==I'm not sure what you are doing here. I don't know if you are trying to pull attention away from verses 37 - 44 (etc) or if you are trying to say that John 6:45 outweighs John 6:37 & 44.


If anything, I would say that John 6:45 only proves the truth of John 6:44 and unconditional election. Why? Jesus said that, "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me". It is the Father who draws people to Jesus (vs44) and who gives people to Jesus (vs37). Every person on the face of the earth does not hear and learn from the Father. If they did, universal salvation would be true. But it is not. Not all are given, not all are drawn, and not all hear and learn from the Father.

 

[Martin]

The one who is raised up is the one who "comes to Me". He who comes to Christ will be raised up.

==Before anyone comes to Christ, or raised up, they are given to Him by the Father (vs37). That is a little thing called election. John 6:44 makes the same point saying that those who are raised up are first drawn to the Son by the Father (vs44). The one who is given comes to Christ and is saved and will be raised up (Jn 6:37, 17:1-3). The one who is drawn will be raised up (Jn 6:44).

Who comes to Christ? Those who have listened and learned from the Father.

==Right? And who has listened and learned of the Father? Those who are given (vs37) and those who are drawn (vs44). It is certainly not all people.

John 6:37, 44, and 44 are all talking about the same thing in different ways.

Your digging deep, to be sure, but you can't change or avoid what the Scriptures teach on this issue. I am certainly seeing, once again, why non-Calvinist have such a hard time with John 6.

 

[Amy.G]

==I do have proof, it is the Scriptures. Those the Father draws Jesus said He WILL raise up. It is that simple.

He said the one that "comes to Him" will be raised up. He did not say that all who are drawn would be raised up.

==Generally speaking, yes we can. The Bible says that people don't believe because they are trapped in sin (Jn 3:19-20). We cannot know why God draws one and not another, but generally speaking we do know why people reject the Gospel.

Jesus said that people don't believe because they "love the darkness". Love is a choice. They chose to remain in their sin.

==The drawing in John 6:44 is effectual, it does not fail. How do I know that? Because Jesus said so, "I will raise him up on the last day" (Jn 6:44).

Again, Jesus says He will raise up the one that comes to Him. You are reading into the scripture something that isn't there in order to fit your theology.


Jesus said He would draw ALL men to Himself by being lifted up on the cross. But only those who come to Him will be saved (raised up). He did not say that all those who are drawn would be raised up, for ALL are drawn, yet not ALL are saved. Only those who come to Jesus in faith will be saved and raised up on the last day. He makes this very understandable when He says that His being raised up on the cross is like the serpent which was raised up on the pole. It represented sin and those who had been bitten need only to look upon the serpent (in faith) and they would be healed.

All who have been "bitten" by sin (which is ALL of us, for "all have sinned") need only to look upon Jesus as He was lifted up on the cross and be healed.

But all will not look upon Jesus just as all would not look upon the serpent on the pole and many died.

Who did God forbid to look upon the serpent on the pole? Who did God pass by and leave in their disbelief? NONE. They chose not to look upon the serpent and be healed.

And people today choose not to look to Jesus for salvation.

 

[Darrenss1]

==Where in Scripture do you get the idea that people stop being depraved when they "resist God for whatever reason"? Better yet, what does that mean?

They are being drawn by the Father to believe in Christ, yet they still reject, refuse, disobey, resist - however they are able to come to Christ if they are willing.

Darren

 

[Lux et veritas]

No. The one who is raised up is the one who "comes to Me". He who comes to Christ will be raised up.

Who comes to Christ? Those who have listened and learned from the Father.

Amy, let's see these verses:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

First: The Father "gives" some to the Son. We know it is not everyone or we would be universalists, and the whole statement here by Christ is meaningless.

Second: Those whom the Father "gives" come to Christ. All of them. (v.37)

Third: Not one of those who were given and then come will be cast out. (Christ is speaking of the security of those who come to Him with that phrase)

Fourth: They would never be cast out because it was the Father's will that Christ should lose none of those whom the Father gave Him (v.38)

Fifth: It was the Father's will that all He gave the Son would be raised up at the last day. (v.39)

Sixth: Those who come to Christ are defined as those who "see" and "believe".

Seventh: A sinner coming to Christ is impossible except the Father "draws him". (v.44).

Eighth: Those are the ones whom He will raise up in the last day.

In other words, Christ is stating a doctrine which the religious but carnal minds of His day despised (just like today!), and He explained it from every possible angle.

These verses utterly destroy the anti-calvinistic approach to salvation. To make them mean something else is to be guilty of "wresting the scriptures" out of their proper and rightful context and meaning.

Fourth:

 

[Darrenss1]

==The drawing in John 6:44 is effectual, it does not fail. How do I know that? Because Jesus said so, "I will raise him up on the last day" (Jn 6:44).

The drawing is not regeneration but simply God's way to bring sinner's to faith and trust in Christ. All those that believe were drawn, not all whom are drawn believe.

eg. Mother Bessy died at 80 without Christ, is it true to say she was neither drawn or elected to Christ therefore she never so much as even gave christianity or God in general a second thought?? God did not love her, draw her, elect her but she will perish in the lake of fire because of her sins as God's righteous judgment against her.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

These verses utterly destroy the anti-calvinistic approach to salvation. To make them mean something else is to be guilty of "wresting the scriptures" out of their proper and rightful context and meaning.

Not even close. All the believers the Father gives to the Son. The all are no longer drawn but were drawn before they believed. Therefore ALL believers will be raised up on the last day. Non believers will not be raised up. Simple as that.

Darren

 

[Pastor Larry]

Then what are you saying? Did Jesus offer salvation to Israel or only individuals? Did He come to the Jews or just individuals?

And if He did offer salvation to Israel/the Jews, was it a general call or an effectual call?

God dealt with Israel on two planes. First, the national plane where all Israel was his chosen people. That is irrelevant to this discussion. Second, the individual plane of individual salvation where everyone had the general call and some had the effectual call.

I have read a bit of the discussion on John 6 here. You are really reaching to try to defend your point. In John, the same individual is in view all through: The one who comes is the one who is drawn is the one who will be raised up. There is no basis for making a distinction there.

 

[Pastor Larry]

They are being drawn by the Father to believe in Christ, yet they still reject, refuse, disobey, resist - however they are able to come to Christ if they are willing.

So what makes them change from "reject, refuse, disobey, resist" to "willing"?

 

[Darrenss1]

So what makes them change from "reject, refuse, disobey, resist" to "willing"?

At that stage of being drawn to faith in Christ they simply give in to God, stop resisting, disobeying, refusing...etc and therefore humble themselves, come to their senses and repent by believing. As I said not all whom are drawn believe but ALL whom believe are drawn. Man can resist the call to salvation even though God is drawing them and enabling them to come Christ.

 

[Darrenss1]

I have read a bit of the discussion on John 6 here. You are really reaching to try to defend your point. In John, the same individual is in view all through: The one who comes is the one who is drawn is the one who will be raised up. There is no basis for making a distinction there.

There is a definite basis of context and distinction. the ones being raised up are those whom believe NOT those being drawn. The emphasis is on those whom believe; they will be the one to be raised up. The drawing process ended when they believed, so those whom are still being drawn are NOT believers but unbelievers. Therefore those being drawn, being unbelievers are not the ones being raised up, they will be raised up later IF they eventually believe, at which point they will no longer be classified as being drawn. However as I pointed out not all whom are drawn eventually believe, they can resist God all the way to the grave.

Darren

 

[Me4Him]

==Yes, all have a choice. I have never denied that nor do other Calvinists. However man's choice is not free.

All men are naturally enslaved to sin (Eph 2:1-3, Jn 8:33-36, Rom 6:20-23). All mankind naturally rejects Christ (Rom 3:10-12).

It is only when God draws a person to Chirst that they can/will come to Christ in faith (Jn 6:44). Otherwise they will willfully continue in their sin and disobedience.

I think we're back to the "definition" of words problems,

First you say man has a choice, but the choice can only be one sided,

next you say, men are enslaved to sin to the point that none would come to God except God draws them.

Both points are invalid according to scripture.

FYI, The problem I see over and over in debating with Calvinist is that they don't seem to be that "knowledgeable" about the scripture,

Either they're not familiar with enough scripture to compare scripture against scripture as they read,

or, unable to piece together precept upon precept/line upon line, to build the correct interpretation/doctrine.

You said:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here's what the scripture say:

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Israel has a "ZEAL" for God, but not in rightoeusness,

Man is not as "DEPRAVED" as Calvin(ist) try to make him, people around the world try to "get to God" through various doctrines without having been "DRAWN" by the "Spirit",

Some even attend our churches, "every Sunday".

It's not that they didn't "Hear" the Gospel,

it not because the "Calling" was "Ineffectual"

The "REASON" they are not save is "BECAUSE" they didn't have "FAITH" to "MIX" with the gospel to bring about salvation. (grace through Faith)

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Calvin placed "ALL" the "BLAME" on "GOD", with "Predestination/IN-effectual calling" for these people "NOT" being saved,

"Sovereign will" doesn't allow anyone else to be "AT FAULT" except "GOD".

Grace (Salvation) "THROUGH OUR FAITH", Belief/unbelief are totally "irrelevant" to the plan of salvation according to Calvin's interpretation.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

When God said it's not "HIS WILL" for "ANY" to perish and didn't send Jesus to condemn "ANY", that the world "MIGHT BE" saved,

he meant precisely what he said, if "ONE" is predestine to perish, God did the impossible, lied.

Man's "UNBELIEF", alway has been. always will be, the "ONLY REASON" God refuses to save a person,

And the "REASON" the plan of salvation is sit up this way is so important to that plan, that God would give man a "CHOICE" and allow men to perish in spite of his will that none perish.

The "Choice" didn't end with Adam.

It may be a "mystery" to some, but not when the scriptures are understood.

 

[Pastor Larry]

At that stage of being drawn to faith in Christ they simply give in to God, stop resisting, disobeying, refusing...etc and therefore humble themselves, come to their senses and repent by believing. As I said not all whom are drawn believe but ALL whom believe are drawn. Man can resist the call to salvation even though God is drawing them and enabling them to come Christ.

That's not an answer to the question. You simply described what happens. The question is "What makes them change?" Or "Why do they change from one stance to the other?"

There is a definite basis of context and distinction. the ones being raised up are those whom believe NOT those being drawn.

On what context or textual basis do you say there is a distinction between those drawn and those who come?

However as I pointed out not all whom are drawn eventually believe, they can resist God all the way to the grave.

Doesn't this directly contradict v. 37 where "All that the Father gives to me will come"? There, the giving (which is the drawing according to v. 44 and v. 65) precedes the coming, and it is inclusive ... all who are given/drawn will come.

 

[Martin]

He said the one that "comes to Him" will be raised up. He did not say that all who are drawn would be raised up.

==Again, yes He did. John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day". Jesus said that He will raise up those who are drawn. Therefore if one is drawn, one will be raised up. It is just a matter of taking Jesus at His Word.

Jesus said that people don't believe because they "love the darkness". Love is a choice. They chose to remain in their sin.

==And, as I have pointed out over and over and over and over again, the Bible teaches that men naturally remain in that state (Rom 3:9-10, Eph 2:1-3, etc, etc).

Again, Jesus says He will raise up the one that comes to Him. You are reading into the scripture something that isn't there in order to fit your theology.

==Again, John 6:37, 44, and yes even 45, are all talking about the same thing. The one who is given to the Son by the Father comes to the Son and will be raised up on the last day without fail (Jn 6:37-39). The one the Father draws to the Son will be raised up on the last day (Jn 6:44). Those who hear and learn from the Father come to the Son (Jn 6:45). I'm not reading anything into the Scriptures, you are reading things out of the Scriptures. It seems like you are taking parts of John 6:37, 44, and 45, while ignoring the rest.

Jesus said He would draw ALL men to Himself by being lifted up on the cross.

==I have already dealt with this argument and you failed to respond. You are just popping up all over the place with no consistent flow of discussion. I reply to you, you ignore that reply and start off on another trail. To be honest, I am getting really tired of repeating myself. So, I just refer you back to my earlier reply that you failed to respond to (HERE). I suppose you can ignore it again or answer it.

But only those who come to Him will be saved (raised up). He did not say that all those who are drawn would be raised up, for ALL are drawn, yet not ALL are saved.

==As John 6:44 makes very clear, all are not drawn to the Son in a saving manner. And Jesus made clear in John 6:44 that He "WILL" raise up those who are drawn to Him by the Father.

Who did God forbid to look upon the serpent on the pole? Who did God pass by and leave in their disbelief? NONE. They chose not to look upon the serpent and be healed. And people today choose not to look to Jesus for salvation.

==I have dealt over and over and over and over again with the last part of your reply (Bold). Yet, once again, you ignore those replies and continue to make the same assertions. Btw, Calvinism does not teach that God forbids anyone to be saved. So, even on that, you are wrong yet again.

 

[Martin]

They are being drawn by the Father to believe in Christ, yet they still reject, refuse, disobey, resist - however they are able to come to Christ if they are willing.

==You said they stopped being depraved at that moment. How is that? Where is your Biblical evidence?

 

[Martin]

The drawing is not regeneration but simply God's way to bring sinner's to faith and trust in Christ. All those that believe were drawn, not all whom are drawn believe.

==I never said the drawing is regeneration. I said that the drawing is effectual. Your statement that "not all whom are drawn believe" is not in agreement with Jesus' words in John 6:44.

Mother Bessy died at 80 without Christ, is it true to say she was neither drawn or elected to Christ therefore she never so much as even gave christianity or God in general a second thought?? God did not love her, draw her, elect her but she will perish in the lake of fire because of her sins as God's righteous judgment against her.

==Who is Mother Bessy? If she died without Christ then clearly she is not elect (Rom 8:29-30).

 

[Martin]

I think we're back to the "definition" of words problems,

==I'm starting to wonder if I am wasting my time in this discussion. You folks are not taking the time to respond to me as I am taking the time to respond to you. Why should I spend my time on a fruitless, endless merry-go-round, discussion?

As I recall, I gave a point by point reply to you that you have not yet responded to (HERE). Since this IS the case, why should I continue going around and around here? I see no reason. You can reply or not, that is your choice. But I see no reason to have a discussion in which one side is not replying to the other.

next you say, men are enslaved to sin to the point that none would come to God except God draws them.

Both points are invalid according to scripture.

==I have shown both points from the Scriptures over and over and over and over again in this thread. You are in error on this point. Scripture clearly shows that man is naturally a slave to sin who does not turn to God (Rom 3:9-12). The same can be said for most of your post/reply.

FYI, The problem I see over and over in debating with Calvinist is that they don't seem to be that "knowledgeable" about the scripture, Either they're not familiar with enough scripture to compare scripture against scripture as they read,or, unable to piece together precept upon precept/line upon line, to build the correct interpretation/doctrine.

==In my last reply to you I asked if you are able to have a discussion on these matters without slandering those who disagree with you. You failed to respond to that question directly but your statement here tells me that the answer is no. It is really easy to ignore the Scriptures and just accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being ignorant of the Scriptures. Generally speaking the record of this thread, and of the Calvinism v. non-Calvinism debate in general, disproves your assertion.

You said:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

==Those are Jesus' words, not mine.

Here's what the scripture say:

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

==Those texts refer to false believers, those who think they are saved but who are not. John 6:44 refers to true believers. Two different texts, two different contexts.

Grace (Salvation) "THROUGH OUR FAITH", Belief/unbelief are totally "irrelevant" to the plan of salvation according to Calvin's interpretation.

==I don't care about John Calvin's interpretation of anything. According to the doctrines of Calvinism, however, you are wrong. Historically you are also wrong since it has been the Reformed, the Calvinists, who have proclaimed sola fide the loudest.

 

[Dale-c]

Mother Bessy died at 80 without Christ, is it true to say she was neither drawn or elected to Christ therefore she never so much as even gave christianity or God in general a second thought?? God did not love her, draw her, elect her but she will perish in the lake of fire because of her sins as God's righteous judgment against her.

She was certainly not elect. She was certainly not drawn in the manner spoken of in John 6.

As for whether she gave God a second thought I don't know.
She may very well have been a religious person.
She may have worshipped a god in her own image.
She also may have seen the God of the Bible, the sovereign God of the universe and hated Him.

Remember, Romans 1 teaches that we are all without excuse. Most just continue to suppress their knowledge of God.