Where's the Beef: faith/BAG or BAG/Faith

[Tom Butler]

Of course you are framing the argument to where any answer I give is already "defeated" by reason of the fact that you have within your statement ruled out the answer.

I can't make you accept my answer anymore than you can me of yours. You and I both know this so all we have between our conversations is posturing.

Scripture teaches that regeneration is second and faith is first and we are told we must believe to be saved. I personally see God as fare, not claiming to understand all his workings, but accepting His love and grace. Man has free will to receive or reject Christ and all the post you or any Calvinist makes won't alter truth.

My question is sincere and not an attempt to trick you or rule out an answer. My own answer to the question is that God makes the difference.

I appeal to Ezekiel 36:26 " I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. " This is consistent with my own conversion experience. Up to the point that God saved me, all the sermons, scripture verses, teachings on repentance, faith, hell, salvation, etc., really meant little to me. But that day, suddenly the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to my sin and its consequences, and scared the living daylights out of me. My heart was changed from indifference to conviction, and applied to me what I had earlier ignored.

There arose in me a desire to be saved--a desire never before present within me.

Looking back, it was a unilateral act of the Holy Spirit to bring me to repentance and faith.

Why was I willing now, but not before? Ezekiel 36:26 gives me the answer.

 

[Darrenss1]

The question is why do some, who love darkness rather than light, believe while others do not? I can answer that question. Free willers can't!

Of course you can answer that because it fits into Calvinism nicely. It's not like the non Cal view can't answer the question, its that you don't like the answer and claim they can't answer it because it doesn't fit your system of bible interpretation. A non Cal would also say that Calvinist can't explain why God selects to regenerate the 1 man to save him and ignore the other whereby to NOT save him.

There is no scripture that shows regeneration before Salvation let alone before faith. The Calvinist view of Regeneration is by inference not reference, bottom line. And since that is the case, the issue regarding the response of man (that man must be regenerated first) that Calvinism raises to non Cal's is a red herring for the non Cal position.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

I appeal to Ezekiel 36:26 " I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. " This is consistent with my own conversion experience. Up to the point that God saved me, all the sermons, scripture verses, teachings on repentance, faith, hell, salvation, etc., really meant little to me. But that day, suddenly the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to my sin and its consequences, and scared the living daylights out of me. My heart was changed from indifference to conviction, and applied to me what I had earlier ignored.

There arose in me a desire to be saved--a desire never before present within me.

Looking back, it was a unilateral act of the Holy Spirit to bring me to repentance and faith.

Why was I willing now, but not before? Ezekiel 36:26 gives me the answer.

In what you said and your experience still does not mean regeneration precedes faith. The non Cal view sees your experience as God drawing you to Christ, the Holy Spirit convicting you of sin, you letting God into your heart and your response was that to repent and believe. Nothing you said assumes regeneration before faith or Salvation.

In my case I had a similar experience, I was going to church and studying the bible for years before I was saved, I had knowledge but I did not want to give myself to Christ, I knew I should but I wasn't willing; I can't see that God gave me a new heart before believing but yet AFTER I was saved, as a result the bible made so much more sense after I was saved and regenerated.

Darren

 

[Amy.G]

Isn't God looking for Adam the first record of that in the Bible?

God did look for Adam. And Christ came to earth. God became one of us in order to save us. He came to us but also tells all to come to Him.

When Adam sinned, he died spiritually at that moment, knowing good and evil. God guarded the tree of life, lest he reach out and take of it and live forever. Why would God guard the tree of life if Adam was unable or unwilling (in his spiritually dead state) to take of the tree of life? Will a spiritually dead person seek eternal life (according to Calvinism)?

 

[Allan]

Maybe rephrasing the question will help move things along.

What makes the difference between the one who responds to the gospel and the one who does not?

Is the one who responds smarter, more perceptive, more tender-hearted, more sensitive? Is he more disposed to respond than another who doesn't. Does one possess more ability to choose than another. Did he have a better raising?

The question goes beyond the answer, well one responded and the other didn't. The question is, what was the difference.

Then, maybe the question isn't, what made the difference. It may be, as Paul asked in I Corinthians 4:7 "Who makes you to differ from one another? And what do you have that you didn't receive?".....

Both are exactly the same Tom. The difference is which one will choose to become humble not which is is more ??(whatever)??. Not because he is smarter, more sensitive, or tenderhearted, it is because he chose to believe. And the fact is it isn't even about who is 'more' humble, who 'will' humble themselves when God moves upon them. I would appeal to the calling of wisdom (God) to men (specifically the Jews here in Prov 1:12-33 His own chosen people.

Pro 1:22 "How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded? And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing And fools hate knowledge?
Pro 1:23 "Turn to my reproof, Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.
Pro 1:24 "Because I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
Pro 1:25 And you neglected all my counsel And did not want my reproof;

Notice God calling them, all equally and stating - Turn at my reproof. How can they do that of or by themselves? God says how - I will pour out my Spirit on you and will make my words known to you. (Rom 1 states the same thing - God reveals it to them) But they, whom the Lord's Spirit was poured out to and spoke to, revealed truth to - did in fact refused, neglected, and paid not attention to Him.

Pro 1:26 I will also laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your dread comes,
Pro 1:27 When your dread comes like a storm And your calamity comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you.
Pro 1:28 "Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; They will seek me diligently but they will not find me,
Pro 1:29 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD.
Pro 1:30 "They would not accept my counsel, They spurned all my reproof.
Pro 1:31 "So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way And be satiated with their own devices.
Pro 1:32 "For the waywardness of the naive will kill them, And the complacency of fools will destroy them.

Here we see Rom 1 again in that God has given them over to their sins and they will eat the fruit of their own way. But listen to what God says next because this is to another person whom He reach out to in the exact same way.

Pro 1:33 "But he who listens to me shall live securely And will be at ease from the dread of evil."

It is also most interesting to note God's own declation to His chosen nation Israel here and it is the same as in Prov 1:22-33 in most but it gives us a little more detail:

Deu 30:15 ¶ See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

So in the above we see the same thing as in Prov 1 that God places before them a choice to obey/believe/life or not/unbelief/death. That He is speaking to them, revealing His truth (which is done via His Spirit), these people can choose to 'turn away', reject, not pay attention to, etc.. and they shall perish just like the ones in Prov.

Now watch carefully here:

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them

Notice the construct - believe that you may or so you can (1) live (2) love God (3) obey God (4) cleave TO God - for He is your Life (spiritually) (4b) legnth of day (physically).

It is also note that Paul in Romans 10 quotes a portion of Prov 1 in stating that God was stretching out His hands all the day long toward them but they refused.

We have a fact in scripture that God moves upon all men and reveals the same truths to all men. Regeneration if actaully looked at as to what 'scripture' says it is one is left understanding that regeneration can not biblically 'ever' precede faith. Regeneration is found only twice in scripture. In one it is a reference to the time when we all of Gods promises are fulfilled to us and we are with Christ in our glorified bodies (Mat 19:28). Thus this regeneration is refering to the 'new' man after the resurrection. The only other time it is used in scripture it states that regeneration is the act of both justification and sanctification (Titus 3:5). And from scripture we know that both of these come by faith and do not precede it.

 

[Allan]

Why was I willing now, but not before? Ezekiel 36:26 gives me the answer.

Tom, while I do not doubt your experience (for of such is done in all christians I believe) but the verse you appeal to, I aslo appeal to.. But I appeal to it's context. This text is not speaking of anything current to them at that time nor is it currently speaking of transpiring now brother.

It is speaking without question about the nation of Israel and it is speaking about them coming back into their own land. It is speaking about the end of the Tribulation period where all the Jews how have again established a national identity have as a Nation accepted Christ and all of them are saved. (as the OT prophet stated and Paul). Therefore it is speaking of the beginning or at the very least in the Mil-reign of Christ.

The problem brother is that between God bringing them back to their land which is God is revealing that He is the only one who could make this happen (vs 23) and God sprinkling them to cleanse them etc.. is that it is reflecting God's part only in this. It does not give us in this depiction when man believes. Yes, God is revealing the events He will bring into being but does this preclude mans belief? Only if we assume that this text says it all. Between His bringing them back to the Land (their promises inheritence (sp?)) and being justified and sanctified, we know via other scriptures that something has to have happened first. Faith. For we are neither justified nor sanctified apart from or preceding faith first. Thus God will all this in mind shows what He is going to do, with full knowledge of what men will do and since He does not need to mention it we can rest assured that what they do is consistant with what He has planned to do.

I have already give scripture which shows that in order to love God, obey God, cleave to Him, and live - faith is first.
If you want the scriptures of faith preceding sanctification and justification I can give them, I just didn't cause I think you already know them.

 

[Allan]

It might seem like 'pick on Tom day' , but I assure you brother it isn't. I have been purposely staying away from these threads though reading them with a half smile and shaking my head. But I do not have any trepidation of posting to you, knowing that you most likely will not assume I am out to insult you nor your view but to speak and talk about scripture where we can and theological constructs where there might be some mystery God has yet to clue us in on

However I was simply putting out my thoughts and points on certain passages and context to see what might be said concerning them. I'm not really asking you to comment but putting those things out there in block texts to listen to your thoughts on some passages if it is something of interest to you. (This goes for all my posts to you tonight )

For me I can not help but see these same points come up again and again in scripture.

 

[Jerome]

"Next, we must ascertain what is the method of our deliverance. For so long as we are governed by our sense and by our natural disposition, we are in bondage to sin; but when the Lord regenerates us by his Spirit, he likewise makes us free, so that, loosed from the snares of Satan, we willingly obey righteousness. But regeneration proceeds from faith, and hence it is evident that freedom proceeds from the Gospel." ---John Calvin, Commentary on John 8:32

 

[Tom Butler]

Allan, I appreciate the spirit in which you engage my views and those of others. I certainly don't consider it picking on me.

I understand Ezekiel 36:26 in its context. But there is a truth here that can't be ignored. It is that God unilaterally changes hearts as he wills. For God to give Israel a new heart, he must give it to individuals within the nation.

I certainly don't think God limits his giving of a heart of flesh only to Israelites. I believe he gave one to this old Gentile, as well. It accounts for the change wrought in my heart and soul that was not there before.

It accounts for my sudden willingness.

 

[Winman]

Old Regular asked (several times)

Winman

What was it in your psyche that caused you to believe when others don't. Until you can answer that question you really have nothing to say worth listening to or rather reading?

I don't know if I would say I was "caused" to believe, I would say that I was persuaded to believe. And the answer for me personally was the scriptures. When I read the scriptures I knew they were true, because they revealed man, and revealed myself as I truly am. Whether I liked to believe it or not, the scriptures revealed my own sinfulness to me. I knew no man would ever write a book like this.

The scriptures also convinced me that I was in danger of hell for my sins, but that Jesus was the Son of God and died for me and all men on the cross, taking my sins upon himself, and that three days later he rose from the dead.

And I believed when the scriptures said if I would confess I was a sinner and come to Jesus that my sins would be forgiven. And so I prayed sincerely to Jesus and confessed I was a sinner, lost and on my way to hell, and prayed that he would forgive all my sins, come into my heart, and give me eternal life.

I was an 11 year old boy when I prayed this prayer and you know what? I could tell the Holy Spirit came into me. And I have known that the Holy Spirit dwells in me since that moment. I don't know if I could explain it to anyone, but I felt the Holy Spirit enter me. And it was not just a feeling, but a change in mind and thoughts also.

Where you and I differ is not that God saves a man. Where we differ is when the Holy Spirit enters a man. I believe, and many scriptures confirm, that the Holy Spirit enters a man AFTER believeing. You believe the Holy Spirit regenerates a man before believeing.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:13 clearly shows that a man trusts or believes after hearing the word of truth (God's word), the gospel of salvation. After hearing and believeing, then a man is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

You try to prove the Holy Spirit quickens a man to believe from Ephesians chapter 2, but nowhere in that chapter is the order of events that take place in salvation mentioned. But Eph 1:13 is very specific on the order of events that take place.

You say the spiritually dead cannot hear or believe God's word. I believe John chapter 5 proves otherwise.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This verse clearly says that those who hear God's word and believe hath everlasting life and are passed FROM death to life. So, they were clearly spiritually dead until they listened and believed the scriptures. And the next verse more clearly verifies this.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This is not speaking of the resurrection, because it says the hour "now is". The resurrection is future. This verse is saying the spirtually dead can indeed hear the word of God, and that those that "hear" shall live. This means those that choose to listen and believe.

Now at this point we see a change in subject, and the Lord now speaks of judgement. Now Jesus does speak of the resurrection and uses a very similar verse as 25, but uses a few different terms that make a big difference.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

The word "also" shows that Jesus is speaking of a different subject than in verses 24 and 25. Now the subject is the resurrection and the judgement. And notice the changes in verse 28 from verse 25.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Notice Jesus did not say "and now is" as in verse 25. Also, Jesus does not say the "dead" here, he says "all that are in the graves". This is now speaking of the physically dead, whether saved or unsaved (all).

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So there is a difference between verses 24-25 and verse 28. Verse 24 and 25 are showing that a spirtually dead person can hear and believe the gospel, and those that believe will be given life.

Verse 28 is speaking of the resurrection of both the saved and unsaved.

But verses 24-25 show the unsaved, unregenerate man can hear the word of God and believe. And going back to Eph 1:13, those who hear and believe are sealed with the Holy Ghost. It is the Holy Ghost that quickens and regenerates a man.

 

[Lux et veritas]

"Next, we must ascertain what is the method of our deliverance. For so long as we are governed by our sense and by our natural disposition, we are in bondage to sin; but when the Lord regenerates us by his Spirit, he likewise makes us free, so that, loosed from the snares of Satan, we willingly obey righteousness. But regeneration proceeds from faith, and hence it is evident that freedom proceeds from the Gospel." ---John Calvin, Commentary on John 8:32

In all fairness, why not post the entire paragraph (you just posted the last sentence), as well as the sentence following? It says...

"Let the Papists now go and proudly vaunt of their free-will, but let us, who are conscious of our own slavery, glory in none but Christ our Deliverer."

If you are going to quote an author it is never right to quote so as to leave a false impression.

 

[Benefactor]

Besides being Totally Depraved is different to being Depraved. The question removes man's ability to respond to God and puts ALL men as equally light depraved, revelation depraved, truth depraved, sin loving, God haters. Why does one respond and the other doesn't? You mean you have 2 equally "Totally" and utterly depraved individuals that God regenerates only 1 (indiscriminately??) to Christ but chooses to not regenerate the other? OR 2 depraved individuals each with the ability to respond to the light of truth in Christ and God (but NOT the ability to save themselves); God draws both BUT only one of the 2 men responds positively to God. 1 is humble and comes to repentence and faith in Christ, the other is prideful and responds to God to the negative; Both responded to God.

Darren

Not exactly sure of the point you are making.

In the real of special election Calvinism selects a few of the all.

Adam was free to make a choice from the innocent side of life. He was created morally pure and yet he, in free will, sinned. Interesting


Adam had limited knowledge of the results of his decision. He was told he would die, but we are not told that he fully understood the consequences, which does not mean he did not know but it does not necessarily mean he did either. We don't really know but the information we have is limited and if that is all he knew then he did not know the ramifications of his actions. Much like young people who think they know it all but as we get older we gain wisdom and understanding sometime after its to late and sometimes before we act foolishly in ignorance (not of the law or rule but of the actual reality of violating it).

There is a lot to be discussed and pondered on the other side of sin or before sin with regards to Adam. He was free within his domain which was God's sovereign design and purpose. Adam did not have a bent toward sin but was tempted to sin and that is an interesting reality. We have a bent toward sinning because we are the offspring of Adam and Eve and we do chose to sin. If Adam did not have a sin nature and he did not but could sin and we do have a sin nature and do sin - both created in the image of God then it stand to reason that being in sin does not mean a sinner cannot trust God.

What if Adam and Eve had not sinned and they had children, what would the children have done over time as population grew? Do you think one of many would eventually eat from the tree of good and evil? How far in time and how many people would have been born into an innocent world before one would violate the law, don’t eat.

It is really a mute argument but one to be considered in light of the difference between Calvinism and Arminism and those like me who are neither.

Election lends itself to nations and a plan or corporate decree for particular purposes of God, not a predetermined individual selection, yet individuals are chosen on the basis of foreseen faith in the truth.

The disturbing issue here is that Calvinism forces the Bible to teach that regeneration comes before faith.

There are more than enough verses in the Bible that is the total opposite of this view, actually overwhelming evidence that leaves no doubt except that Calvinist must prop up their view or the castle crumbles. I understand that, but the truth is on the side of what the Scripture say, faith is first and salvation is second. Believe then regeneration.

Is Jesus a liar: Luke 7:50. And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

This is only one verse among many that I have given in former post. Regardless of all the other views and arguments on Calvinism verses Arminism, cast them aside because for the serious Bible student who really wants to accept the truth must agree that regeneration is after “faith” “repentance” and “confession” for this order of salvation is firmly confirmed in Scripture.

 

[Winman]

The Bible teaches that a man is persuaded from the scriptures, or from hearing the scriptures preached. Belief is not imposed on a man.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification

Persuaded never means that belief is imposed on a man, it means to be convinced, or to win one over through argument.

I know for myself personally, that there was a time of questioning the scriptures. I mean, you hear in the story of Adam and Eve that the serpent spoke to them. Now, that was a fantastic thing to believe for me, I have never witnessed an animal that could speak. And I heard the criticisms of non-believers who said the Bible was myth. I considered these things. And there were many other fantastic stories such as Moses parting the Red Sea, and Jonah being swallowed by a whale and being alive after 3 days. There were the stories of healing, such as blind men receiving sight, and the dead being raised. To this day, I have never witnessed anything like this. So I had to ask myself if fantastic stories like these could possibly be true, or were just myths written by ancient and superstitious peoples. There are many fantastic myths that I know to be false like the Grecian gods for example.

So, I did not just believe. There were doubts. But when I read the scriptures they had the ring of truth to me, especially when God spoke of the heart of man. The scriptures revealed the sinfulness of man, and I could see my own sinfulness in these scriptures. I knew this was all true, because I knew I had sinned, and I had these sinful lusts and desires in my own heart. And I was not all that bad when I was 11 years old, I laugh when I think about it now. I have commited much worse sins since then. I was relatively innocent as a boy.

The more I read the scriptures, they more I was convinced and persuaded they were true, even if some of the stories were very fantastic and difficult to believe. But I decided the Bible was true and all those stories quite real. Now, it is very easy for me to believe them, and I do not doubt them whatsoever.

But this faith was not imposed or forced on me against my will.

 

[Benefactor]

The Bible teaches that a man is persuaded from the scriptures, or from hearing the scriptures preached. Belief is not imposed on a man.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification

Persuaded never means that belief is imposed on a man, it means to be convinced, or to win one over through argument.

I know for myself personally, that there was a time of questioning the scriptures. I mean, you hear in the story of Adam and Eve that the serpent spoke to them. Now, that was a fantastic thing to believe for me, I have never witnessed an animal that could speak. And I heard the criticisms of non-believers who said the Bible was myth. I considered these things. And there were many other fantastic stories such as Moses parting the Red Sea, and Jonah being swallowed by a whale and being alive after 3 days. There were the stories of healing, such as blind men receiving sight, and the dead being raised. To this day, I have never witnessed anything like this. So I had to ask myself if fantastic stories like these could possibly be true, or were just myths written by ancient and superstitious peoples. There are many fantastic myths that I know to be false like the Grecian gods for example.

So, I did not just believe. There were doubts. But when I read the scriptures they had the ring of truth to me, especially when God spoke of the heart of man. The scriptures revealed the sinfulness of man, and I could see my own sinfulness in these scriptures. I knew this was all true, because I knew I had sinned, and I had these sinful lusts and desires in my own heart. And I was not all that bad when I was 11 years old, I laugh when I think about it now. I have commited much worse sins since then. I was relatively innocent as a boy.

The more I read the scriptures, they more I was convinced and persuaded they were true, even if some of the stories were very fantastic and difficult to believe. But I decided the Bible was true and all those stories quite real. Now, it is very easy for me to believe them, and I do not doubt them whatsoever.

But this faith was not imposed or forced on me against my will.

Thanks for sharing your testimony. I too have a similar experience. I agree with you that faith was not imposed or forced on me against my will.

A vast number of Scripture tells us that salvation is after faith, as I have given in previous post.

 

[OldRegular]

No one has yet answered the question which I asked and which Tom Butler kindly improved. I will post again his remarks with minor changes [bolded] and await an answer from the free willers who have camouflaged their attempted answer with much rhetoric. It really should be quite simple.

By Tom Butler
What is the difference between the one who responds to the gospel and the one who does not?

Is the one who responds smarter, more perceptive, more tender-hearted, more sensitive? Is he more disposed to respond than another who doesn't? Does one possess more ability to choose than another? Did he have a better raising?

The question goes beyond the supposed answer: Well one responded and the other didn't. The question is, what IS the difference?

Then, maybe the question isn't, what made the difference. It may be, as Paul asked in I Corinthians 4:7 "Who makes you to differ from one another? And what do you have that you didn't receive?".....

 

[Benefactor]

No one has yet answered the question which I asked and which Tom Butler kindly improved. I will post again his remarks with minor changes [bolded] and await an answer from the free willers who have camouflaged their attempted answer with much rhetoric. It really should be quite simple.

Where in Scripture is regeneration said to come before faith?

Jesus' order of salvation is as follows: Luke 7:50. And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Does anyone dare to call Jesus a liar?


You have sought to change the argument from which comes first to a nebulous self designed foolish question. You have trapped yourselves.

 

[MB]

I say Amen to Winman's post. Our choice is always rebellion In other words we can reject the gospel no one is forced to believe. How ever I believe that if a man truly listens to and considers the gospel he will be convinced.
Yet man does not save himself by belief. Paul wrote;
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We believe that we might by be justified by the faith of Christ. If it were our faith then Salvation would be of our own works. Salvation is all of God.

You see we can seek God once we become convinced because once convinced we then have faith.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

MB

 

[Amy.G]

What is the difference between the one who responds to the gospel and the one who does not?

What is the difference between the child who is compliant and the child who constantly rebels? I've seen this many times in families. Why does one child obey and another rebel even though they share the same DNA? What makes the difference? This is even seen among twins. We see this in the Bible as well.
Did God create one to behave good and the other to behave badly?

Why does God choose one person for salvation and pass over the another?

The Calvinist cannot answer these questions any more than I can answer why my neighbor rejected Christ and I did not.

I have given my answer to that question many times, but it is not accepted. I have no other answer to offer save that of Jesus.
People do not come to the Light lest their deeds be exposed. That is their reason for rejecting Christ. But some do come to Jesus because they have learned of the Father, who shows us the Son.

 

[OldRegular]

Where in Scripture is regeneration said to come before faith?

That has been posted a dozen times or more. You simply refuse to believe it. But just to humor you I will do it again.

Look at Ephesians 2:1-10 from the NASB

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Verses 1 and 5 state that: you were dead in your trespasses and sins,. Now obviously that person was not saved, he was physically alive but spiritually dead.

In 1 Corinthians 2:14 [NASB] we read: But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

John Gill states of this natural man: Not a babe in Christ, one that is newly born again, for though such have but little knowledge of spiritual things, yet they have a taste, and do relish and desire, and receive the sincere milk of the word, and grow thereby; but an unregenerate man.

Now look again at verses 4 and 5:
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

This passage states that while we were still [spiritually] dead in our trespasses God made us [spiritually] alive. We were spiritually dead, unable to do anything to change our relationship toward God because as 1 Corinthians 2:14 [NASB] states: But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

There is no mention of faith in this transaction, man is completely passive; only the Holy Spirit is active. This is totally consistent with what Jesus Christ told Nicodemus about the new birth in John 3:3-10:

3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Notice that in this passage only the Holy Spirit is active. Man is completely passive. In fact in verse 8 Jesus Christ tells Nicodemus that those born of the Spirit [are regenerated or born again or born from above] do not even understand how.

Notice that Faith is mentioned only in Ephesians 2:8. That Faith itself is the Gift of God and is given to the regenerate man who then exercizes that Gift to respond to the Gospel Call. For this regenerate man the Gospel Call has become the Effectual Call.

Now I realize that the above is like casting pearls before swine but who knows, perhaps the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to really understand that all of Salvation is by the Grace of God.

 

[MB]

No one has yet answered the question which I asked and which Tom Butler kindly improved. I will post again his remarks with minor changes [bolded] and await an answer from the free willers who have camouflaged their attempted answer with much rhetoric. It really should be quite simple.

Question 1
What is the difference between the one who responds to the gospel and the one who does not?
Answer;
Rebellion
Question 2
Is the one who responds smarter, more perceptive, more tender-hearted, more sensitive?
Answer;
No: The one who responds just doesn't rebel.
Question 3
Is he more disposed to respond than another who doesn't? No: Just less rebellious.
Question 4
Does one possess more ability to choose than another? No all are equal in the sight of God
Question 5
what IS the difference?
Answer:
There is none
Question 6
"Who makes you to differ from one another? And what do you have that you didn't receive?".....
Answer;
Nothing but a willingness to listen to the gospel being preached.

As often as rebellion is spoken of in the Bible what part didn't you understand?.
MB