Where's the Beef: faith/BAG or BAG/Faith

[Winman]

I also added more in post #193. Here it is again.

The Bible teaches that a man is persuaded from the scriptures, or from hearing the scriptures preached. Belief is not imposed on a man.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification

Persuaded never means that belief is imposed on a man, it means to be convinced, or to win one over through argument.

I know for myself personally, that there was a time of questioning the scriptures. I mean, you hear in the story of Adam and Eve that the serpent spoke to them. Now, that was a fantastic thing to believe for me, I have never witnessed an animal that could speak. And I heard the criticisms of non-believers who said the Bible was myth. I considered these things. And there were many other fantastic stories such as Moses parting the Red Sea, and Jonah being swallowed by a whale and being alive after 3 days. There were the stories of healing, such as blind men receiving sight, and the dead being raised. To this day, I have never witnessed anything like this. So I had to ask myself if fantastic stories like these could possibly be true, or were just myths written by ancient and superstitious peoples. There are many fantastic myths that I know to be false like the Grecian gods for example.

So, I did not just believe. There were doubts. But when I read the scriptures they had the ring of truth to me, especially when God spoke of the heart of man. The scriptures revealed the sinfulness of man, and I could see my own sinfulness in these scriptures. I knew this was all true, because I knew I had sinned, and I had these sinful lusts and desires in my own heart. And I was not all that bad when I was 11 years old, I laugh when I think about it now. I have commited much worse sins since then. I was relatively innocent as a boy.

The more I read the scriptures, they more I was convinced and persuaded they were true, even if some of the stories were very fantastic and difficult to believe. But I decided the Bible was true and all those stories quite real. Now, it is very easy for me to believe them, and I do not doubt them whatsoever.

But this faith was not imposed or forced on me against my will.

 

[Darrenss1]

I asked a simple question of the freewillers: What was it in your psyche that caused you to believe when others don't. Until you can answer that question you really have nothing to say worth listening to or rather reading?

None of the verbiage in the above posts even comes close!

You are simply trying to ask a leading question based upon your points of Calvinism, T-U-L-I... Arminians/non Calvinists answer the question, you just don't like the answers given. Call it verbiage if you like, that is your opinion.

Darren

 

[Allan]

What it comes down to is a monergistic view. Does God do something that cause man to believe. Or does man believe 1st.

And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

No non-cal nor Arminian disagrees with your statement. No man believes apart from God and that God must do something to bring men to faith.

And thus "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

 

[Winman]

Yeah, the leading word is "caused". It's an old trick, and that is why I said I was not "caused", I was persuaded or convinced. And that is what the Bible says about Abraham as well.

Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Why would Paul "reason" with them? According to Calvinists, the Holy Spirit causes a man to believe regardless. But the scripture shows Paul did appeal to their reasoning and persuaded or convinced them to believe Jesus was the Christ.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

And there are many other verses besides these that show a man is persuaded to believe by the word of God.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

 

[Allan]

I asked a simple question of the freewillers: What was it in your psyche that caused you to believe when others don't. Until you can answer that question you really have nothing to say worth listening to or rather reading?

None of the verbiage in the above posts even comes close!

No, it has been answered not only hear but in various other threads at different times, and just because you don't like the answer or can't handle the answer does not mean it 'has not been answered'.

 

[Rippon]

No, it has been answered not only hear but in various other threads at different times, and just because you don't like the answer or can't handle the answer does not mean it 'has not been answered'.

I don't like and I can't handle "answers" that ascribe some strength of character, special insight, superior logic and other humanistic trappings for the reason they turned to the Lord.

 

[Winman]

You might not like it, but the scriptures show a man's reason is included in believeing.

In fact, the word persuade by definition includes reasoning.

1. to prevail on (a person) to do something, as by advising or urging: We could not persuade him to wait.
2. to induce to believe by appealing to reason or understanding; convince: to persuade the judge of the prisoner's innocence.


And the scriptures show this.

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Do you think king Agrippa was under some supernatural spell here? No, he was completely in his right mind and faculties and hearing the scriptures preached by Paul.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

For about the hundreth time, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Faith is not imposed on a man by the Holy Spirit. The word of God appeals to a man's sensibilities and reason and convinces and persuades a man to believe.

 

[Darrenss1]

I don't like and I can't handle "answers" that ascribe some strength of character, special insight, superior logic and other humanistic trappings for the reason they turned to the Lord.

strength of character?
special insight?
superior logic?
humanistic trappings?

None of these were answers given as the reason a sinner turns to the Lord, who specifically said that?

Darren

 

[Winman]

This is unbelieveable, how many scriptures do you have to show these guys? :BangHead:

 

[Darrenss1]

This is unbelieveable, how many scriptures do you have to show these guys? :BangHead:

From the Calvinist view a Totally Depraved sinner must first be regenerated to hear, believe or respond to God. They cannot rebel or disobey but will come to God unconditionally. The response of that regenerated unsaved sinner to the gospel is not called a "response" but something else because they cannot use their reason, interlect or understanding in hearing the gospel because that would be man helping God to save himself, therefore man gets all the glory??

How does being regenerated first (in the Calvinist view) resolve the problem of man responding to God (in both views). Yet a Calvinist says of the non Cal view that man is helping God by responding to the gospel (man centred gospel) but in their view man in responding to God, being regenerated is not helping God? This seems like theological double standards...

Darren

 

[Allan]

From the Calvinist view a Totally Depraved sinner must first be regenerated to hear, believe or respond to God. They cannot rebel or disobey but will come to God unconditionally. The response of that regenerated unsaved sinner to the gospel is not called a "response" but something else because they cannot use their reason, interlect or understanding in hearing the gospel because that would be man helping God to save himself, therefore man gets all the glory??

How does being regenerated first (in the Calvinist view) resolve the problem of man responding to God (in both views). Yet a Calvinist says of the non Cal view that man is helping God by responding to the gospel (man centred gospel) but in their view man in responding to God, being regenerated is not helping God? This seems like theological double standards...

Darren

Just to clarify something brother. Total depravity is the very doctrine held not 'only' by Calvinists, but the majority Arminians, and the majority Non-Cals alike. Man is 'totally depraved' and without God first coming to man, man will never look for, understand, nor desire anything of God.

 

[Winman]

I believe John 5:25 shows the unsaved, unregenerate man can indeed hear and understand God's word and be saved.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Anticipating their objections that this may be speaking of the dead being raised (the resurrection), I do not believe it is, because it says "and now is". The resurrection of the dead is future. And it says only those that hear shall live, which implies those that do not hear will not live. I believe this is speaking of those spiritually dead but physically alive, and I think that is proved by verse 28.

In verse 28 Jesus says something similar, but the differences are major.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice that Jesus does not say "and now is" as in vs. 25. So this is speaking of the future. And Jesus makes the distinction of saying "all that are in the graves". This identifies these as those physically dead who shall be raised, both saved and lost (all). Why would he say the dead in vs. 25 and say those in the graves in vs. 28 if they were not different? Why would he leave out "and now is" in vs. 28?

 

[OldRegular]

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

There is no record of Agrippa becoming a Christian is there?

 

[OldRegular]

No, it has been answered not only hear but in various other threads at different times, and just because you don't like the answer or can't handle the answer does not mean it 'has not been answered'.

You are wrong. It has not been answered. You tell me: What is it in your psyche that caused you to believe when others don't.

 

[Winman]

There is no record of Agrippa becoming a Christian is there?

No, there is not, but that is not the point. What this verse shows is that a man hears the scriptures and is either convinced or not of his own will that they are true or not. I showed many other scriptures where people were convinced.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 18:19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Now, according to you and other Calvinists, the unsaved cannot understand the gospel. So why do the scriptures say Paul "reasoned" with them? And I have shown that the definition of persuade means to convince someone appealing to their understanding and reasoning.

But have you noticed in every case that Paul first preached the word of God? Only after hearing the word of God did some believe, and then after believeing received the Holy Spirit. This is always the pattern shown in scripture.

As others have asked, show one verse that absolutely without controversy says a man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit to believe.

 

[OldRegular]

Just to clarify something brother. Total depravity is the very doctrine held not 'only' by Calvinists, but the majority Arminians, and the majority Non-Cals alike. Man is 'totally depraved' and without God first coming to man, man will never look for, understand, nor desire anything of God.

You are wrong again. Benefactor states in his post #55:

By Benefactor, post #55
Latch on to the truth I am teaching you and you will be cured from your tulipitis and you will be able to rid yourself of the dortites.

1 Hear the gospel

2 Repent and believe gospel

3. Regenerated / saved / positional sanctified and adopted / born a gain / born from above / converted / became a new creation in Christ / justified / pass from death to life / have a new name written down in Heaven / in Christ / Christ in me / baptized by the Holy Spirit / elect in Christ / son of Abraham our father of faith / child of God /

Number three is simple terms is SAVED. I don't have a problem with the logical process of all these terms once you get to number three.

That sounds a lot like Pelagianism.

 

[Darrenss1]

Just to clarify something brother. Total depravity is the very doctrine held not 'only' by Calvinists, but the majority Arminians, and the majority Non-Cals alike. Man is 'totally depraved' and without God first coming to man, man will never look for, understand, nor desire anything of God.

Hi Allen, thanks for pointing that out, I however do realise this. But in order to make a distinction between the 2 I make the point that way. A depaved "fallen man" can respond to the gospel, God uses different means to draw sinners to Christ. The difference is a man however being depraved can respond to the drawing of God and the gospel. Yet the Calvinist view says man cannot because man is totally depraved and cannot respond at all, man must be regenerated in order to believe and be receptive to the gospel. So man needs to be both regenerated and drawn in order to believe, only some are drawn because the others, however exposed to the drawing of God (the gospel, Holy Spirit conviction, revelation in creation, the light of Christ..ect), cannot be drawn since they are not regenerated.

Darren

 

[Jarthur001]

No non-cal nor Arminian disagrees with your statement. No man believes apart from God and that God must do something to bring men to faith.

And thus "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Well, how about this statement..?

" If I ought, I can"

That would disagree. BTW...I have heard that statement many many times on this board.

 

[Winman]

Old Regular

Three or four times I have presented John 5:24-25 that I believe prove an unsaved, unregenerate man can hear and respond to the gospel. Why have none of you Calvinists answered these verses?

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Verse 24 shows that they that hear the word of God and believe receive everlasting life at that instant (hath), and are passed FROM death unto life.

Verse 25 shows that the dead can hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.

What do you have to say of these verses?

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi Allen, thanks for pointing that out, I however do realise this. But in order to make a distinction between the 2 I make the point that way. A depaved "fallen man" can respond to the gospel, God uses different means to draw sinners to Christ.

Darren

Man you talk about timing.

I rest my case.