Jarthur001
Active Member
ok..i missed it..
Just real short...
was it before or after? No game playing. Be up front with me. Before or after?
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Order of salvation...
- Thread starter Jarthur001
- Start date
ok..i missed it..
Just real short...
was it before or after? No game playing. Be up front with me. Before or after?
Darren
I posted before I saw your last post. Yes, to repent means to believe. Peter often said "repent" where John almost always said "believe". But they are the same thing. When you turn from believeing in self to Jesus, then you have repented and at the same time exercised faith in Christ. :thumbsup:
Jarthur
I have written several times, given many scriptures, and even life examples. I think the problem is that you do not want to accept what I have shown.
Believe what you will.
I posted before I saw your last post. Yes, to repent means to believe. Peter often said "repent" where John almost always said "believe". But they are the same thing. When you turn from believeing in self to Jesus, then you have repented and at the same time exercised faith in Christ. :thumbsup:
Jarthur
I have written several times, given many scriptures, and even life examples. I think the problem is that you do not want to accept what I have shown.
Believe what you will.
Jarthur001
Active Member
You post a lot of words. You look at other passages and you address other issues in the text. But all can read and know you dodge and dance around because you know you CAN"T say what is clear, for it destroys your doctrine.
Please don't run from the truth. Face the truth.
You had a chance to answer, but you choose to play games. i'm done with the games....
You can have the last words. This case is closed.
later
Your question is irrelevant, seriously. There is the knowledge of the truth but that is not knowledge of ALL truth or all doctrine or right doctrine or wrong doctrine, the NT churches were filled with christians who had some truth and some error, Paul among others had to deal with it, that is a fact. There is also the knowledge of the truth that is to say to know Christ and be saved. There is God "granting" repentence, that is different from saying they DID repent by believing. Your premise to argue the order of salvation from 2 Tim ch 2 is a big worry, what for? It's not even teaching the path (let alone order) of salvation. You jump on some key phrases and words and push that as the standard when it is not, neither does it mean what is should for your question to be accurately stated.
:tonofbricks:
Darren
Notice yet another dodge.
No dodge at all (you sure like that phrase apparently). If it is speaking of believers who already KNOW the truth of salvation (salvation by grace through faith), it can't be that, but that the resurrection had not taken place, contrary to what they were taught. If it is speaking of unbelievers, it is the truth that we are saved by grace through faith. Very different "truths" depending on the audience. Context rules!
I don't see what any of that has to do with someone's belief in free will. Anyone can do what you are describing, whether Cal or non/Cal.
As far a "scaring" people off, if you present all of the doctrine of Calvinism to an unbeliever, you must tell them that they may not be one of the elect. You must tell them that your words could very well be wasted because God may not have chosen them for salvation. You could call it "full disclosure". How do you think they would receive that? As a believer in free will, there is not one doctrine of the Bible that I would not be willing to share with an unbeliever, but I don't think you will say the same.
Tom Butler
New Member
I agree. That's why I don't get into these kinds of discussions during worship services in my church. I generally confine these kinds of discussions to this forum, or in friendly conversations with brothers and sisters.
Jarthur001
Active Member
ok now that you got to say your point, please answer what has been asked countless times.
When?
Before or after?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Than answer it. SERIOUSLY
This is the fact...WHEN?
but When was it granted according to the text?
When did it happen? Before they knew the knowledge or after they know the knowledge? Understand?
I know the answer. I worry not. It is clear here by all who will not answer. Now why is it that you worry?
In what order has God shown from Holy Scripture that he grants repentance? Is it before they know the truth, or after?
Or maybe you think God just put this in the Bible to trick us
Amy, no calvinist that I know of, believes that it is a waste to share the gospel with those who will never receive the gospel (the reprobate). The sharing of the gospel primarily is to bring glory to God. God is glorified whenever we share what He has done to save sinners. It is not a waste. I know you have made other points here, but I wanted to comment on this one.
Bingo! I know James is trying to use this passage to teach that God gives repentance to use, but it is seriously lacking contextually.
The purpose of my response is to show the method (myself included) to best facilitate the hope that God will grant repentance after being instructed in the truth.
The instructor must be the Lord's servant; The quality of the his/her character and spirituality is the key.
HankD
The instructor must be the Lord's servant; The quality of the his/her character and spirituality is the key.
HankD
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Character and spiritually of God's servant?. One of the greatest preachers ever to live ("Paul the Apostle" ) had a terrible reputation before His Salvation. I'm sure the stigma of his past haunted him and may have been that thorn in his side. Jonah was a rebellious preacher, God punished him of course but, never the less he convinced all of Ninevah. Peter was a liar and denied Christ three times. And people were healed by the passing of his shadow. We have all fallen short of the glory of God. Not one messenger of God is pure in reputation. Everyone human, everyone with faults.
There have been preachers God has used who were really very weak men with weak minds. Yet in Jesus Christ were made strong.
Everything I am as a Christian has nothing to do with me and every thing to do with Christ. Any who may have been convinced by hearing my witness had nothing to do with me or them but everything to do with God. I believe we are a tool that may be used by God. We can be used by Him no matter who we are. History proves this to be true. No man can have credit for it.
MB
Well, let's go to the verse and see what it says.
2 Tim 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
First, I thought I would include verse 23, because your question is an excellent example of a foolish and unlearned question. :laugh:
And I still cannot answer you, because I understand this verse quite differently than you. The verse is not talking about God granting or giving a person repentance at a certain time.
It is talking about God giving a person a chance to repent. The verse is saying to patiently teach someone who does not believe and even opposes the gospel in gentleness, because they may repent and be saved SOMEDAY. We do not know if this person will repent or not. We do not know how much time God will give this person to repent. But perhaps (peradventure) this person will come to repentance.
It is saying to be patient with this person because God may give them much time to repent. Or perhaps God will not give them much time.
And acknowledging the truth and repentance happen at the same moment. These persons are opposing the gospel. They are not acknowledging that they are a sinner and that Jesus died for them. But if we patiently teach them from the scripture, perhaps someday they will be convinced that the gospel is the truth. At the moment they are convinced, they both repent and acknowledge the truth.
Repent means to turn around. If you do not believe something, the moment you change and believe, that is repentance.
If a person believed and somehow stopped believeing, that would be repentance as well. Repentance means to change your attitude or belief 180 degrees.
So, in 2 Tim 2:25 this person or persons is not acknowledging the truth of the gospel. The moment they do acknowledge the truth, that very moment they have also repented.
Have I answered your question?
These verses are not teaching that God imposes or causes a man to repent. They are teaching that God gives man space or time to repent. And that a man plays a part in this repentance is shown in verse 26 when it says,
" And that they may recover themselves"
There it is, plain as day if you will accept it. When a person chooses to turn or repent of unbelief in Jesus to trusting and believeing in Christ, then they recover themselves out of the snare of the devil. The Bible clearly says it, but you cannot receive it because you believe a false doctrine which says man does not participate in his own salvation.
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OK MB, but this passage is not in reflection of the servant of the Lord's past or who gets the credit. This passage concerns the present character and spirituality of the servant of the Lord, that it must be according to the Word of God before said servant is used by God.
2 Tim 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
The current situation here at the BB concerning certain subjects of debate with the inevitable name-calling and innuendo bears testimony to the truth of God's Word when we choose to disobey it and the servant of the Lord is not behaving accordingly, then strife is inevitable.
HankD
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Winman,
You wrote:
I don't know to whom you were replying and I don't mean to hijack a conversation you are having, but there are some issues in this post. First off, let me say this: Calvinists do not believe that man has no part in salvation. The Bible clearly tells us that we must repent and believe in Christ. As Calvinists, however, we do believe that God is the Initiator in the process and man responds to God's regenerating work. So, you have a misunderstanding with the Calvinist position, which is really a both/and, not either/or, position.
Secondly, I generally agree with your statement here:
The Greek subjunctive expresses exactly what you are suggesting--the person(s) may repent, so keep working, preaching, etc. The problem is this: no where in the passage does it suggest God giving a "Chance" for repentance. What may God give? Repentance, not a chance to repent. There is a big difference.
Third, your translation (whichever translation you use) is not the best for "that they may recover themselves." To "Come to their senses" is how the ESV translates it and the Greek word is, again, subjunctive and it means "to recover sobriety of mind."
But, more importantly, there is a grammatical issue here: The "God may grant repentance" and "they may come to their senses" are both subjunctive and are linked with the Greek conjunction kai which suggests these are related.
According to the passage, God might grant repentance. If He does, they may come to their senses.
So, while this may not "prove" the Calvinist understanding beyond the shadow of a doubt, it certainly does not and cannot prove your understanding either. In fact, the passage leans toward the Calvinist understanding because God is doing the granting of repentance and because of His granting, people are coming to their senses.
Blessings,
The Archangel
You wrote:
I don't know to whom you were replying and I don't mean to hijack a conversation you are having, but there are some issues in this post. First off, let me say this: Calvinists do not believe that man has no part in salvation. The Bible clearly tells us that we must repent and believe in Christ. As Calvinists, however, we do believe that God is the Initiator in the process and man responds to God's regenerating work. So, you have a misunderstanding with the Calvinist position, which is really a both/and, not either/or, position.
Secondly, I generally agree with your statement here:
The Greek subjunctive expresses exactly what you are suggesting--the person(s) may repent, so keep working, preaching, etc. The problem is this: no where in the passage does it suggest God giving a "Chance" for repentance. What may God give? Repentance, not a chance to repent. There is a big difference.
Third, your translation (whichever translation you use) is not the best for "that they may recover themselves." To "Come to their senses" is how the ESV translates it and the Greek word is, again, subjunctive and it means "to recover sobriety of mind."
But, more importantly, there is a grammatical issue here: The "God may grant repentance" and "they may come to their senses" are both subjunctive and are linked with the Greek conjunction kai which suggests these are related.
According to the passage, God might grant repentance. If He does, they may come to their senses.
So, while this may not "prove" the Calvinist understanding beyond the shadow of a doubt, it certainly does not and cannot prove your understanding either. In fact, the passage leans toward the Calvinist understanding because God is doing the granting of repentance and because of His granting, people are coming to their senses.
Blessings,
The Archangel
Ok, for example Hymenaeus and Philetus were in error, they did not accept at that stage Paul's correction on the resurrection. I don't know how much truth they did know. The passage clearly refers to those in the church who are like wood and earth, those of dishonour rather than gold silver and honor.
To grant them repentence is to teach and gently, patiently instruct them of the truths of God. In every church (or most) there was truth and error, Galatia had the Judaizers, Corinth had the excess in spiritual gifts things out of order, Colosse had the gnostics and philosophies, Timothy had his problems, Titus had his problems, Hebrews..etc - ALL relating to the saints whom had been taught truth with error, or were corrupted by false brethren. For God to grant or help those in error to follow the truth they would need to be taught right as well as hear, read the scriptures, acknowledge and repent.
What I think you are trying to say is that unless God grants repentence they will not repent BUT "IF" God grants repentence they cannot rebel or disobey but they are hardwired into the will of God that they cannot do anything other than repent. This brings out a strange idea that it is not possible for a christian to be out of the will of God, or wander away from the truth by believing in error. Since they were saved they believed doctrines that were false but God may not attempt to show them the truth for some reason, why? God may decide to leave His children in error? Yet if God "grants" them repentence they cannot do anything other than repent because they are locked directly into the will of God. Why study to shew thyself approved, God may not show them the "knowledge of the truth" or the knowledge if the truths they had previously erred over, anyway?
Or maybe you think God just put this in the Bible to trick us?? No, just there is more to the story than just a little passage.
Darren
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Well, I'm glad you see this passage as I do, because I sincerely believe that is what it is teaching.
Where I have a difference with you is where you say a man responds to God's regenerating, as I highlighted above.
The scriptures clearly show multiple times that a person first hears the word of God, then believes, then receives the Holy Spirit.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
You will find no more specific verse than this that shows the order of events in salvation. First you hear the word of truth (the gospel), then believe, then receive the Spirit.
Here are some other verses that show the same.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Again, you hear, believe, and then receive the Spirit.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
When you receive Jesus, you are receiving the word of God, for Jesus is the Word.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
After a person hears the word of God (the gospel) and then believes, THEN God gives a person the power (the Holy Spirit) to become the sons of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
So you must receive or believe the word of God.
Now, I will say this, this is all almost instantaneous. When you believe God's word and turn to Christ in your heart, at that very instant you receive the Spirit.
Although in Acts you see several examples of those who received the Spirit long after believeing. The apostles were believers but did not receive the Holy Spirit until Pentacost.
And there is another example in Acts of believers who did not receive the Spirit until much later.
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
These twelve men were believers, notice in verse 5 it says "when they heard this". This is hearing the word of God. And they were baptized which shows they believed Paul's preaching. And then afterward when Paul laid hands on them they received the Spirit.
And this order is found over and over in the scriptures. You hear the word, then believe, then receive the Spirit.
Any man who has ears can have faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
So, this is where I totally disagree with Calvinists. You are not regenerated to believe, you believe and THEN are regenerated (see John 1:12).
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