Ccm

[BlessedWife]

All of these ARE history. Very old history. Amy Grant did "Baby, Baby" in 1991. That's 19 years ago. Could you find some "dirt" on an artist who's songs we sing in church today? I'll give you some names - Chris Tomlin, Matt Redman, Charlie Hall, David Crowder, Lincoln Brewster, Kristy Nockles just to name a few. These are all men and women who have such a heart for the Lord. I personally know Charlie and his guys and I've seen their lives being lived for the glory of God. So, of course you can find dirt on some of the artists in CCM but that doesn't mean that all are bad.

I think I'm being misunderstood I didn't use those examples to paint all CCM artists to be bad or to discredit the entire genre. I was speaking out against the people who defend CCM as if it's some sort of set apart music altogether, when oftentimes it is nothing more than songs with clean lyrics whose artists happen to profess belief in God. The issue is the pervading mindset among many CCM artists that "church is boring", "Christianity should be cool" and how we have to weaken the Gospel message so as not to be "offensive". The Gospel *is* offensive to those who don't believe it!

The problem isn't listening to the music. It's idolizing it, idolizing the musicians or allowing the music to replace quiet time in God's Word. We have young people who look up to these artists and, because they profess Christ and profess to be "using their music to minister" we trust them as role models. But then their very words and actions continually betray that trust. How many CCM artists have fallen by the wayside and are now living in a state of unrepentant sin? Ray Boltz comes to mind. Did anyone honestly believe that the man who sang such beautiful music with precious lyrics such as "Watch the Lamb", "Thank You" and "Scars" would later come out as an unapologetic, unrepentant homosexual who now attends some liberal church that "loves him the way he is"? He needs the truth of Jesus, not justification of his lifestyle. He left his wife of thirty-three years and children to live openly as a gay man. He said coming out of the closet "made him feel closer to God".

Not only that, but we have to be very discerning about the music that is being put out by the emergent church movement.

For what it's worth, I went to school with Newsong's Billy Goodwin's daughter and I know that they love the Lord and their music reflects that. Like I said, I'm merely urging discernment, not condemnation.

I can certainly find some IFB anti-CCM people with some dirt in their background too.

Amen. I am one of those IFB folks you could dig up some past dirt on. None of us are spotless and our works are as filthy rags. With that said, there is a difference between having a past (in other words, I wouldn't judge a musician who had been divorced or had an abortion years ago) and living the life exemplary of an unregenerate spirit.

You DO realize that hymns are worldly music too, don't you? Just because the words speak of God doesn't mean that they are "holy". Music is music and you absolutely can find secular - even satanic music that sounds like hymns.

I'm not elevating the status of hymns to some sort of special holy music. The point of hymns is to praise God's name and to help us memorize Bible truths. The point of many P&W or CCM music is to heighten the emotional state of the people singing with very little Bible truth contained within the lyrics. And I don't agree with the sentiment that emotions are bad. I experience emotions every day. With that said, there is no Scriptural basis in his modern concept of church being an emotional experience rather than the assembling of brethren for the purpose of honoring God and learning the truths of the Bible. I don't go to church to be entertained for an hour or for a bunch of loud music to whip everyone into a frenzy.

 

[annsni]

I'm not elevating the status of hymns to some sort of special holy music. The point of hymns is to praise God's name and to help us memorize Bible truths. The point of many P&W or CCM music is to heighten the emotional state of the people singing with very little Bible truth contained within the lyrics. And I don't agree with the sentiment that emotions are bad. I experience emotions every day. With that said, there is no Scriptural basis in his modern concept of church being an emotional experience rather than the assembling of brethren for the purpose of honoring God and learning the truths of the Bible. I don't go to church to be entertained for an hour or for a bunch of loud music to whip everyone into a frenzy.

This is where you err, apparently. No one writes songs to heighten the emotional state of the people singing - especially worship songs. I know because my husband is a song writer and I know MANY worship song writers. They are writing these songs from Scripture and their heart for the purpose of glorifying God. As for the "frenzy" thing, I don't think I've ever seen that except in a charasmatic church - of which we're certainly not. But if a song happens to bring emotion to a person because of it speaking to them, what's wrong with that? I cry EVERY SINGLE TIME we sing "It is Well with My Soul". Is that wrong?

 

[sag38]

The issue is the pervading mindset among many CCM artists that "church is boring", "Christianity should be cool" and how we have to weaken the Gospel message so as not to be "offensive". The Gospel *is* offensive to those who don't believe it!

Can you prove this or is this just your opinion? How do you know this is the pervading mindset among many. You are stereotyping many innocent people who are simply used by God to bring praise to His name. Now, I'm sure there are some very shallow CCM folks out there who are in it for the money and fun just as I'm sure there are those who use very traditional music who are just as shallow and worldly. Should I judge everyone else based on their poor behavior and shallow motives?

 

[BlessedWife]

It grieves my spirit that my words have been so terribly misunderstood. I was thinking of this earlier and the Lord convicted that I am not wording my views properly, so if my opinions have caused offense or anger I am sorry. Just to clarify, I don't feel this is a salvation issue here. I don't believe if someone listens to CCM or even secular music then they must not really be saved. I don't believe that all CCM artists are corrupt or will corrupt your mind. I also don't have a problem with music that evokes emotion. When I hear songs like "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" it brings a tear to my eye, because it is a reminder of the sacrifice Jesus made for me. The song "Dust in the Wind" by Kansas chokes me up too, but for different reasons. Granted, I would be really confused if they sang that song in a church, but still.

I wasn't trying to be legalistic and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was simply urging caution and discernment about some of these musicians and their music, not outright abstinence from listening to it. I love the David Crowder Band. I love Newsong. I also love Southern Gospel music, and there are some churches that condemn that genre as well, because it "sounds too much like secular Country music". That is their choice. If the Holy Spirit convicted them over listening to that type of music then they should obey.

It's difficult to convey emotion and tone over the internet. If you could have been here and seen me as I was typing my previous posts you would know that they were not meant to be a "shame on you" finger wagging in the face with my hand on my hip. Like I said, I was simply sharing my concerns over people creating an idol out of CCM or the musicians because CCM feels safer than secular music, not condemning the genre altogether. This is one of those issues I'm willing to back away from, as it isn't a salvation issue and thus isn't worth creating dissension and division between myself and my brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[annsni]

It grieves my spirit that my words have been so terribly misunderstood. I was thinking of this earlier and the Lord convicted that I am not wording my views properly, so if my opinions have caused offense or anger I am sorry. Just to clarify, I don't feel this is a salvation issue here. I don't believe if someone listens to CCM or even secular music then they must not really be saved. I don't believe that all CCM artists are corrupt or will corrupt your mind. I also don't have a problem with music that evokes emotion. When I hear songs like "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" it brings a tear to my eye, because it is a reminder of the sacrifice Jesus made for me. The song "Dust in the Wind" by Kansas chokes me up too, but for different reasons. Granted, I would be really confused if they sang that song in a church, but still.

I wasn't trying to be legalistic and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was simply urging caution and discernment about some of these musicians and their music, not outright abstinence from listening to it. I love the David Crowder Band. I love Newsong. I also love Southern Gospel music, and there are some churches that condemn that genre as well, because it "sounds too much like secular Country music". That is their choice. If the Holy Spirit convicted them over listening to that type of music then they should obey.

It's difficult to convey emotion and tone over the internet. If you could have been here and seen me as I was typing my previous posts you would know that they were not meant to be a "shame on you" finger wagging in the face with my hand on my hip. Like I said, I was simply sharing my concerns over people creating an idol out of CCM or the musicians because CCM feels safer than secular music, not condemning the genre altogether. This is one of those issues I'm willing to back away from, as it isn't a salvation issue and thus isn't worth creating dissension and division between myself and my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I agree with you but I don't see many who make an idol out of CCM. I've had lots of music exposure and CCM "idol" is just not an issue that I've seen anywhere. But I HAVE seen that there is almost an anti-CCM idol out there and I've seen so many basically say that CCM is evil, P&W is evil and if you do anything but hymns, your salvation should be in question. THAT is why so many of us react strongly.

 

[Aaron]

It grieves my spirit that my words have been so terribly misunderstood. I was thinking of this earlier and the Lord convicted that I am not wording my views properly, so if my opinions have caused offense or anger I am sorry. Just to clarify, I don't feel this is a salvation issue here. I don't believe if someone listens to CCM or even secular music then they must not really be saved. I don't believe that all CCM artists are corrupt or will corrupt your mind. I also don't have a problem with music that evokes emotion. When I hear songs like "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" it brings a tear to my eye, because it is a reminder of the sacrifice Jesus made for me. The song "Dust in the Wind" by Kansas chokes me up too, but for different reasons. Granted, I would be really confused if they sang that song in a church, but still.

I wasn't trying to be legalistic and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was simply urging caution and discernment about some of these musicians and their music, not outright abstinence from listening to it. I love the David Crowder Band. I love Newsong. I also love Southern Gospel music, and there are some churches that condemn that genre as well, because it "sounds too much like secular Country music". That is their choice. If the Holy Spirit convicted them over listening to that type of music then they should obey.

It's difficult to convey emotion and tone over the internet. If you could have been here and seen me as I was typing my previous posts you would know that they were not meant to be a "shame on you" finger wagging in the face with my hand on my hip. Like I said, I was simply sharing my concerns over people creating an idol out of CCM or the musicians because CCM feels safer than secular music, not condemning the genre altogether. This is one of those issues I'm willing to back away from, as it isn't a salvation issue and thus isn't worth creating dissension and division between myself and my brothers and sisters in Christ.

It doesn't matter how sweet you make your words, the CCM crowd will yip and bite. But it isn't you, it's God they attack. The fact that the only place in the Scripture where the use of "all kinds of music" is endorsed is in the command of a pagan king in the worship of the idol he set up goads them relentlessly.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Annsni...

"I've had lots of music exposure and CCM "idol" is just not an issue that I've seen anywhere."

Me neither.

"But I HAVE seen that there is almost an anti-CCM idol out there and I've seen so many basically say that CCM is evil, P&W is evil and if you do anything but hymns, your salvation should be in question. THAT is why so many of us react strongly."

Agree completely, and I have such pity in my heart for these poor ones are so very VERY wrong in their misguided condemnation of CCM.

 

[rbell]

It doesn't matter how sweet you make your words, the CCM crowd will yip and bite. But it isn't you, it's God they attack. The fact that the only place in the Scripture where the use of "all kinds of music" is endorsed is in the command of a pagan king in the worship of the idol he set up goads them relentlessly.

Ah, yes...the "Daniel" argument. Been a while since I heard that mis-application of Scripture. I was worried you had forgotten it...

 

[sag38]

Wow, I never realized that the music played when the people bowed down to worship Neb's statue would be used in such a manner. Talk about terrible (and dangerous) exegisis!!! Legalists will stoop to whatever level is necessary to promote their agenda.

 

[Eric B]

And that's an argument I've never even heard before (or at least don't remember)!
But that would include simple, plain music they would consider "godly" as well; and most of those are the same instruments used in the Psalms.

To adress this:

It actually frees one to think like the Almighty. We're commanded to think on whatsoever things are lovely.

This is still based on the assumption that your tastes are necessarily what God thinks is "lovely". There is no way around it. You cannot prove this, except by holding up the worst examples of the nominal secular genre of music you are condemning. But "CCM" is far more than just that.

 

[DHK]

I can certainly find some IFB anti-CCM people with some dirt in their background too.

You mean like John Newton, former slave-trader, converted and author of well-known "Amazing Grace."

This offensive remark was uncalled for and off topic.
The topic is CCM not "throw dirt on IFB's"

 

[Aaron]

Wow, I never realized that the music played when the people bowed down to worship Neb's statue would be used in such a manner. Talk about terrible (and dangerous) exegisis!!! Legalists will stoop to whatever level is necessary to promote their agenda.

What exegesis?

Exegesis would reveal that some of the instruments mentioned are never mentioned in the context of Hebrew culture, and the list is further reduced when Temple worship is in view.

But that's not my point. My point is the only biblical character saying what you say is a heathen. :laugh:

 

[Aaron]

This is still based on the assumption that your tastes are necessarily what God thinks is "lovely".

No it isn't. It's based on the fact that people know by nature what things are lovely, as opposed to those which are base.

Music has an appeal. The appeal is either to one's more noble feelings, or one's baser apetites. Only musicians and musicologists are interested in music theory. The guy that buys it off the shelf is only interested in how it appeals to him.

Music is thought. It's an action. It's not a thing.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Exegesis would reveal that some of the instruments mentioned are never mentioned in the context of Hebrew culture, and the list is further reduced when Temple worship is in view.

Is it a sin to play the bass guitar?

 

[nodak]

Bit off topic, and yet it does pertain to this whole long discussion.

I was in contact recently with a preacher from another state.

He was all hot under the collar about some cowboy churches starting up in his area and "sheep stealing." Said they had no right to come in and bring that music with them. Said they were bringing in trash. Said somebody ought to deal with those young whippersnappers.

Now, all this was said by a baby boomer that fought tooth and nail to eliminate hymns and gospel songs, and bring ccm into the church back in the 80's.

All I could think about while he ranted was that he was experiencing exactly what he had done to others.

And wonder what the future holds, should the tides turn and in 20 or years the younger or hipper folks want to bring back the hymns and gospel songs. I wonder how those who enjoy ccm today will react when their music is the "old stuff nobody wants."

I suppose when (IF) that should happen, we will find out if ccm really produced godly followers of Christ. If they happily and cheerfully give up "their" music, that is

 

[DaleMcNamee]

Dear Aaron,

You wrote: " Music has an appeal. The appeal is either to one's more noble feelings, or one's baser apetites. Only musicians and musicologists are interested in music theory. The guy that buys it off the shelf is only interested in how it appeals to him.

Music is thought. It's an action. It's not a thing. " Wrong, it is a thing created by human beings. If nobody played it, would it exist ? In thought only ?

You keep on trashing musicians and musicologists... Why ? Are you jealous ?

Here's a detailed definition from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory

" Music theory is the field of study that deals with how music works. It examines the language and notation of music. It seeks to identify patterns and structures found in composers' techniques, across or within genres, styles, or historical periods. In a grand sense, music theory distills and analyzes the fundamental parameters or elements of music – rhythm, harmony (harmonic function), melody, structure, form, texture, etc. Broadly, music theory may include any statement, belief, or conception of or about music . People who study these properties are known as music theorists. Some have applied acoustics, human physiology, and psychology to the explanation of how and why music is perceived."

So, you're using music theory in your argument against musicians and musicologists !:laugh:

Regarding the "flesh"...Where explicitly in the list of the "fruits of the flesh" is enjoying music in Galatians 5: 19-21 ?

"19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

20 idolatry,sorcery, enmities,strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. "

Also, if someone enjoys, even loves listening to hymns and sacred music", is that sinful ? Does it make the hymns/sacred music "sinful "?

You should know the answer since you consider your thoughts to be on a level with God's and your sig line states that : Not fair & balanced,simply right."

Since when did boasting,pridefullness,conceit, and arrogance become "Christian" values ?

 

[DaleMcNamee]

Dear DHK,

You wrote in part of your response to Annsi : " This offensive remark was uncalled for and off topic. The topic is CCM not "throw dirt on IFB's".

Yet,that's what every IFB anti-ccm'er does to CCM artists and those who enjoy listening to,singing and playing, and worshipping with Contemporary Worship Music/CCM.

For example, Aaron, David Cloud, Frank Garlock, Bill Gothard, Dan Lucarini, Jack Chick, AV1611.org,etc.

To paraphrase : " Let him who has no "dirt" in their background cast the first stone"...

 

[annsni]

You mean like John Newton, former slave-trader, converted and author of well-known "Amazing Grace."

This offensive remark was uncalled for and off topic.
The topic is CCM not "throw dirt on IFB's"

What's offensive DHK? I'm just saying that to go back to over 20 years ago for info on why CCM artists are "dirty" isn't very helpful and that even those who are against CCM have dirt in their lives too.

 

[sag38]

So far, no one has produced one shred of Biblical evidence to support the wholesale condemnation of CCM. And yes there are some who are worldly and want to force CCM down others thoats. That I deplore. But, the shoe also fits for some on the traditional side. The half truths and elevation of personal preference to the level of Biblical mandates is sad. Personally, I'm glad to be apart of a church where all kinds of styles are played from very traditional hymns to Third Day and Casting Crowns. In fact, Sunday I am singing a country style song for the call to worship. So, you will also find Southern Gospel and Christian Country.

 

[Eric B]

No it isn't. It's based on the fact that people know by nature what things are lovely, as opposed to those which are base.

Music has an appeal. The appeal is either to one's more noble feelings, or one's baser apetites. Only musicians and musicologists are interested in music theory. The guy that buys it off the shelf is only interested in how it appeals to him.

Music is thought. It's an action. It's not a thing.

People know what's lovely and base, but not all agree with the division of music into those categories thw ay you do. You try to say it is really God's preference, but you have no evidence of that. You try to base this on man's knowledge, but man does not agree on it, so it is not universal.