What are you referring to with Romans 1? Not understanding you.
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God's election
- Thread starter Carico
- Start date
What are you referring to with Romans 1? Not understanding you.
Follow the thread.
...accept Eph. 2:8-9 confirms no such thing. Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the Word of God. I do agree that nobody can come to Christ without the Holy Spirit acting first, I disagree to the extent of pre faith regeneration.If you believe that verse, then I trust you know that no one can believe in God without the Holy Spirit. Thus, faith comes from the Holy Spirit, (which Ephesians 2:8-9 confirms) not the will of man. Thus, subject closed.
Atheists don't believe and most of them have not only been baptized as infants, most of them have heard the word and even quote it. So you are incorrect again. So here's Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this-not from yourselves-it is a gift from God, not by works so that no one can boast." But you don't believe that faith is not from yourself even though you say you believe 1 Corinthians 2:14. So you keep contradicting not only the bible but yourself as well.
And that's precisely why faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, not of the sinful nature.
I have been. I just don't understand what you are trying to say.
Romans 1 is referring to every man woman and child, before they come to Christ, as is made clear by 2:1.
The truth of God's existence has been "made apparent" to all; they can see through natural revelation (seen in the things which are made)that there is a God. But this is different from the Word of God, which is necessary for being "distributed" or "assigned" faith: in order for a person to receive this knowledge, they must have the Holy Spirit open their eyes, according to scripture.
Good post. Honestly, [personal attack edited out]
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Good post. Honestly, people who want to contradict scripture so they can take credit for their faith so they can boast is beyond belief. But that's the sin of pride for ya.
Bro,
I appreciate your position, but this kind of talk is not helpful. I really do not think this is his motivation. Let's just present the facts; don't return evil for evil.
Just some friendly advice. :jesus:
Incorrect on what
Atheists are the fools spoken of, the ones who have "exchanged the truth for a lie". That is rejection. To reject something means the choice to accept the very same things exists. Words have meanings.In the Greek, "that" (neuter in gender) refers back to the whole of "by grace are you saved through faith", as faith is feminine. The greek does not allow for your interpretation, as pronouns must agree with their antecedent in gender and number. Their case is determined by their use in their own clause. If Paul wanted you to understand the verse the way you currently do, then there is no reason why he would not have used the feminine form of the demonstrative pronoun, which would be the Greek word αυτη
Non Sequitur...no kidding.
The only motivation to change scripture so that one can give credit to oneself for his faith is pride. There is no other reason to do it. So I call a spade a spade...not even as harshly as Jesus did with the Pharisees in MT. 23 and I don't think that what he did was evil AT ALL, even though the Pharisees did. One has to see his own motivations in order to repent and that's why Jesus showed the Pharisees their motivations as well.
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And you my friend are now a proven liar (along with false accuser)...which is nothing to laugh at. See my above post and you will see it is you that has the faulty understanding.Here's Webdog's version of Ephesians 2:8-9. "For it is by works you have been saved through faith-and this from yourselves-so you can boast." :laugh:
Talk about changing scripture into the opposite of what it says; this verse takes the cake.
I don't understand what you don't understand
Then you do believe that faith is not from ourselves. Here, you didn't:
So why do you accuse me of lying when you said the above?
So I'm not interested in listening to your contradictions or your false accusations. You need to be consistent and clear. So do you believe that faith is from ourselves or not from ourselves?
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Why are you deliberately twisting my words? I do not believe there is a mystical "saving faith" given to a select few. Faith is faith. It is the object of one's faith that saves. This understanding of the One who saves comes from the Holy Spirit, but the faith is the same faith you use every day, each time you go at a green light that the other driver will stop at their red light.Then you do believe that faith is not from ourselves. Here, you didn't:
So why do you accuse me of lying when you said the above?
Wrong again. Those who don't believe in Jesus will not be saved as john 3:16-18 says. So it's faith in Jesus that saves. So it isn't just the object that saves, it's faith in Jesus that saves. So you obviously don't have a clear understanding of the bible nor have you answered whether faith in Christ comes from man or is a gift from God.
Incorrect on what
The question is what they are rejecting, and who is doing the rejecting. This is the beginning of an exposition of the Gospel, as made clear by Paul in verse 15. What you are seeing here is the logical progression of salvation.
EVERYONE rejected God, and His general revelation (made clear by 2:1 "you practice the same things"). God gave humanity up, to do what was "not convenient". This is the equivalent of "spiritual death". Humanity is no longer capable of responding to spiritual stimuli. They are blind, deaf, and dead.
This distinction is made very clear by the Pharisees. By your interpretation, they did not reject the fact that there was a God. But still, they "could not hear" because they were not Christ's Sheep. Only those whom he chose, out of his own grace and mercy, to enlighten with the Holy Spirit, can "hear" the Gospel, and respond. The rest remain in their self imposed "given up" state.
Actually, this does not hold water: many Greek scholars will tell you that "gift" refers to the whole package: grace distributed by faith given. Bill Mounce, I believe, is one of them.
Also, your problem extends further: for their are other verses which speak of God giving faith, which do not allow for such escapes. Scripture clearly states that we are to "think" according to the amount of faith which God has given us, that we are "given ears to hear", etc. This is not some lone verse, but is taught throughout scripture.
Why are you playing semantics games? Do you not understand what the phrase "object of one's faith" means?
If you have such a "clear understanding"of the Bible, why not try debating what I say, and touch on the posts I make instead of personal attacks and childish antics? I see you just ignored what I posted Eph. 2:8-9...wonder why?
The object of the faith of Muslims is Allah. Do you believe that allah saves? No. So not only did I understand you, I showed you that you were wrong.
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