God's election

[Havensdad]

Carico

And not a nice man by the way, Calvin was ruthless, he had no compassion or mercy whatsoever, he burned many a person who disagreed with him at the stake. Hardly the behaviour of a man in whom the Holy Spirit resides.

But if you would rather believe a man who burned people alive who disagreed with him over the scriptures, that is your choice.

Well, your view of free will agrees with the Roman Catholic Church, so...under your argument you CERTAINLY shouldn't believe it: they killed hundreds of thousands.

 

[Winman]

This is not true.

Rom 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

There are many verses like this throughout scripture. Nothing an unbeliever does, can be "good" in the sense of "Holy and Righteous." Even good deeds, done with a wrong motive, by an uncleaned person, is sin. They are "filthy rags".

Isaiah 64 does not teach that a man does not have righteousness, but it shows a natural man's righteousnesses are marred by sin.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
9 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.

Righteousness in the scriptures is often compared to clean white linen.

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

These persons in Isaiah 64 are not naked. They are clothed, yet sin has marred this garment, it is torn and filthy. This verse does not say man has no righteousness, it says that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

But notice a seeming contradiction in these verses. In verse 7 it says that none calleth upon thy name. But in verse 9 it says "we beseech thee". So you cannot take these verses to prove that a sinner cannot seek God.

And I have already showed where Jesus said sinners can give good gifts to their children. I also showed two examples of unsaved men who both sought for eternal life.

Why would Jesus tell men to seek him who were already saved?

Matt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Why would a saved person need to seek Christ's righteousness? And what good would it be to tell people incapable of seeking righteousness to do so?

 

[Carico]

And not a nice man by the way, Calvin was ruthless, he had no compassion or mercy whatsoever, he burned many a person who disagreed with him at the stake. Hardly the behaviour of a man in whom the Holy Spirit resides.

But if you would rather believe a man who burned people alive who disagreed with him over the scriptures, that is your choice.

I already told you that I don't even read Calvin. I only use the term "Calvinist" o distinguish from the teaching that man on his own is righteous which is unbiblical. Righteous men don't need saving. But you either don't read other people's posts or you ignore them.

I follow the bible and if Calvin agrees with it, great. So I'm not quoting Calvin, I'm quoting the bible. So our discussion is about the the bible says, not what people say. So you need to go back and see just who is making people righteous and it's not the devil or our sinful nature. Good grief.

 

[Winman]

I already told you that I don't even read Calvin. I only use the term "Calvinist" o distinguish from the teaching that man on his own is righteous which is unbiblical. Righteous men don't need saving. But you either don't read other people's posts or you ignore them.

I follow the bible and if Calvin agrees with it, great. So I'm not quoting Calvin, I'm quoting the bible. So our discussion is about the the bible says, not what people say. So you need to go back and see just who is making people righteous and it's not the devil or our sinful nature. Good grief.

No, you are clearly following the teaching of Calvin, and you learned it from men, not the Bible.

I notice none of you Calvinists ever discuss the verses shown that contradict your doctrine. Did I not show you two examples of unsaved men who sought after God? Yet not one remark from you or others. You simply ignore scriptures that contradict your doctrine.

Then you say you follow the Bible. No, you cherry-pick the Bible.

 

[Havensdad]

No, you are clearly following the teaching of Calvin, and you learned it from men, not the Bible.

This is the stupidest statement I have ever seen on this board. How on earth do YOU know what he is doing?

I NEVER read Calvin, or any other reformed theologian, when I became reformed. In fact, the only people I had ever read was heavily Arminian people.

I got my reformed theology, 100 percent from the Bible: I was even violently opposed to the little I had heard! I accused people of "Following the teachings of men" (much like you are doing) and made stupid, arrogant and baseless assertions about people's character (much the way that you are doing). Romans threw me for a loop: I locked myself away, and studied scripture. I arrived at my conclusions totally by myself, with the help of the Holy Spirit, and only later discovered that what I had come to understand, matched others understanding.

You have a LOT to learn, my friend. Perhaps you could start with your attitude.

FYI: Calvinism is not Calvin's theology. It is the theology of a previous reformer, primarily Martin Bucer, which Calvin took and arranged in a Systematic fashion. So "Calvinism" is a misnomer any way. Many people before Calvin, including Wycliffe, Huss, Augustine, and others, taught portions of these scriptural truths, long before Calvin.

 

[Carico]

This is the stupidest statement I have ever seen on this board. How on earth do YOU know what he is doing?

I NEVER read Calvin, or any other reformed theologian, when I became reformed. In fact, the only people I had ever read was heavily Arminian people.

I got my reformed theology, 100 percent from the Bible: I was even violently opposed to the little I had heard! I accused people of "Following the teachings of men" (much like you are doing) and made stupid, arrogant and baseless assertions about people's character (much the way that you are doing). Romans through me for a loop: I locked myself away, and studied scripture. I arrived at my conclusions totally by myself, with the help of the Holy Spirit, and only later discovered that what I had come to understand, matched others understanding.

You have a LOT to learn, my friend. Perhaps you could start with your attitude.

FYI: Calvinism is not Calvin's theology. It is the theology of a previous reformer, primarily Martin Bucer, which Calvin took and arranged in a Systematic fashion. So "Calvinism" is a misnomer any way. Many people before Calvin, including Wycliffe, Huss, Augustine, and others, taught portions of these scriptural truths, long before Calvin.

Amen! :thumbs: 1 Corinthians 1:3 tells us not to follow people and I don't which is why I don't read Calvin. I'll let you continue and take my place because you're doing a great job. :jesus:

 

[OldRegular]

And Carico, you cannot use Ephesians 2:8-9 to prove that faith is a gift. These verses have been a controversy for centuries. Some say the gift spoken of is grace, some say faith, and some say it is speaking of salvation. I agree with those that say it is speaking of salvation and not grace or faith. That is the topic of the passage.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How does this passage start? It says we were quickened who were once dead in sins. This is speaking of salvation, not grace or faith. Then it goes on to say how we once walked in the spirit of disobedience and the lusts of our flesh. So it is still speaking of salvation and that we have now received the Holy Spirit. Then it speaks of how God loved us even when we were sinners and quickened us when we were dead in sins. Yes, it says by grace we are saved, but the topic of the passage is salvation, not grace or faith. And then it says by grace we are saved through faith, and not of ourselves or by our works.

The whole passage is about being saved. This passage is not discussing grace or faith.

Winman

I am so thankful you finally understand Ephesians 2:1-8. You admit that GOD quickened or made spiritually alive those who were dead in sin. That is called regeneration and is performed by GOD the Holy Spirit with no action on mans part. In fact there can be no action on man's part since he is spiritually dead in sin.

I must assume you had an epiphany since our earlier discussion some weeks back. Then I could not convince you that what you now say is true; GOD regenerates man void of any action on man's part.

Of course one cannot talk about salvation apart from the Grace of GOD!

 

[Carico]

Winman

I am so thankful you finally understand Ephesians 2:1-8. You admit that GOD quickened or made spiritually alive those who were dead in sin. That is called regeneration and is performed by GOD the Holy Spirit with no action on mans part. In fact there can be no action on man's part since he is spiritually dead in sin.

I must assume you had an epiphany since our earlier discussion some weeks back. Then I could not convince you that what you now say is true; GOD regenerates man void of any action on man's part.

Of course one cannot talk about salvation apart from the Grace of GOD!

Another amen. :godisgood:

 

[Winman]

Winman

I am so thankful you finally understand Ephesians 2:1-8. You admit that GOD quickened or made spiritually alive those who were dead in sin. That is called regeneration and is performed by GOD the Holy Spirit with no action on mans part. In fact there can be no action on man's part since he is spiritually dead in sin.

I must assume you had an epiphany since our earlier discussion some weeks back. Then I could not convince you that what you now say is true; GOD regenerates man void of any action on man's part.

Of course one cannot talk about salvation apart from the Grace of GOD!

Old Regular, I absolutely believe that God quickened us when we were dead in sins.

But I believe it happened just like Ephesians 1:13 shows, first a man hears the word of God, then believes and trusts on Jesus Christ, and then receives the Spirit.

Ephesians chapter 2 does not discuss the order of events in salvation whatsoever. Ephesians 1:13 does.

Ephesians 2 is simply saying that God quickened us when we were dead in sins. That is absolutely true. It does not even mention hearing the gospel.

So, do you believe a man has to hear the gospel to be saved?

 

[Winman]

In fact there can be no action on man's part since he is spiritually dead in sin.

Not so, Jesus said the dead can both hear and believe.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

 

[webdog]

This is not true.

Rom 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

There are many verses like this throughout scripture. Nothing an unbeliever does, can be "good" in the sense of "Holy and Righteous." Even good deeds, done with a wrong motive, by an uncleaned person, is sin. They are "filthy rags".

You have butchered that passage straight out of context, and FWIW, maybe that is why you don't get the responses you are looking for. Jesus said even the evil man will do the right thing by not giving his son a stone when he asks for bread. He no way condemned this act as sin. Sin is the transgression of God's Law, and since we are to care for our family, he did NOT sin even though he was referred to as being evil. Now we both agree this good act doesn't lead to righteousness, but the fact remains an evil person can do something good and it not be considered sin.

 

[Havensdad]

You have butchered that passage straight out of context, and FWIW, maybe that is why you don't get the responses you are looking for. Jesus said even the evil man will do the right thing by not giving his son a stone when he asks for bread. He no way condemned this act as sin. Sin is the transgression of God's Law, and since we are to care for our family, he did NOT sin even though he was referred to as being evil. Now we both agree this good act doesn't lead to righteousness, but the fact remains an evil person can do something good and it not be considered sin.

Any action done which is motivated by anything other than God, is sin.

When a section of scripture uses a fact (WHATEVER is not of faith is sin) to prove what it is saying, that statement of fact is a universal truth, which supersedes context.

For instance "Because 'Gold is soft' it can be molded into jewelry" The context of this sentence is making jewelry. But the statement 'Gold is soft' is a universal truth.

 

[OldRegular]

Old Regular, I absolutely believe that God quickened us when we were dead in sins.

But I believe it happened just like Ephesians 1:13 shows, first a man hears the word of God, then believes and trusts on Jesus Christ, and then receives the Spirit.

Ephesians chapter 2 does not discuss the order of events in salvation whatsoever. Ephesians 1:13 does.

Ephesians 2 is simply saying that God quickened us when we were dead in sins. That is absolutely true. It does not even mention hearing the gospel.

So, do you believe a man has to hear the gospel to be saved?

Winman
You have to make up your mind and not waffle. Dead men can't do anything. Spiritually dead men can do nothing to change their state. It takes the intervention of GOD the Holy Spirit which you so eloquently stated in your previous post. The opening verses of Chapter 2 very accurately state the initial events in salvation. We were spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins and GOD made us spiritually alive. How wonderful that while we were dead in sin GOD loved us and made us spiritually alive and then HE gave us the faith to believe the Gospel Call which for us became the Effectual Call.

 

[webdog]

Any action done which is motivated by anything other than God, is sin.

When a section of scripture uses a fact (WHATEVER is not of faith is sin) to prove what it is saying, that statement of fact is a universal truth, which supersedes context.

For instance "Because 'Gold is soft' it can be molded into jewelry" The context of this sentence is making jewelry. But the statement 'Gold is soft' is a universal truth.

Your analogy is relative and proves my point, not yours, as gold is soft compared to a diamond, but hard compared to a cheeseburger...hence no "universal truth" in that. Context is indeed needed to understand truth. The context of the passage determines what the truth is. The context (and truth) that if there is doubt whether you should do something, if you go on and do it, you have sinned...not if you don't have faith in Christ whatever you do is sin (as you have put it using your model of "universal truth")

 

[webdog]

Winman
You have to make up your mind and not waffle. Dead men can't do anything. Spiritually dead men can do nothing to change their state. It takes the intervention of GOD the Holy Spirit which you so eloquently stated in your previous post. The opening verses of Chapter 2 very accurately state the initial events in salvation. We were spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins and GOD made us spiritually alive. How wonderful that while we were dead in sin GOD loved us and made us spiritually alive and then HE gave us the faith to believe the Gospel Call which for us became the Effectual Call.

Dead men also can't reject something, be held accountable for something, be blinded, etc., etc.
In addition, the way you use "dead" means a believer cannot sin since Scripture states we are "dead to sin". I really wish your side would use that word the way God intended for it to be understood, not the way a theological stance needs it to be understood.

 

[Winman]

Another pet verse of Calvinist's is John 6:44 which they try to argue shows that God regenerates a man to have faith, and then the man has a desire for God. Problem is, they completely ignore the very next verse.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

A person isn't saved until they come to Christ. But this verse says that only those who are taught, and heard, and learned of the Father come to Christ. Therefore, they had to be taught, hear, and learn when they were spiritually dead in sins.

Yes, verse 44 says no man can come to God except they be drawn, but verse 45 shows it is through the scriptures. It does not say they are regenerated to have faith, it shows those who have heard and learned of the Father are the ones who come. How can you be taught and learn of the Father except through the scriptures?

You can't.

And this fits perfectly with Paul's teaching that faith comes by hearing the word of God, and also that no man can trust on Christ until he first hears of him through the scriptures (or the preaching of the scriptures).

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Why didn't Paul mention God regenerating a man to have faith here? That would seem to very important if Calvinism is true. No, Paul only says that a man must hear the word of God.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul shows here you cannot possibly believe in Christ if you have never heard of him. But if Calvinism were true, God could regenerate you to have faith without hearing God's word.

So, everything agrees with Ephesians 1:13. First you hear the word, then believe, then receive the Spirit. It is NEVER shown otherwise in the scriptures.

 

[OldRegular]

Dead men also can't reject something, be held accountable for something, be blinded, etc., etc.
In addition, the way you use "dead" means a believer cannot sin since Scripture states we are "dead to sin". I really wish your side would use that word the way God intended for it to be understood, not the way a theological stance needs it to be understood.

Webdog

The phrase you quote "dead to sin" is written to believers not the unregenerate!

Romans 6:1, 2
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ephesians 2:1-8 is written about the unregenerate and uses the phrase "dead in sin".

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You must rightly divide the "Word of Truth", not splinter it, which you have done in your response!

 

[OldRegular]

Jesus said the dead could hear his voice, and those that hear should live.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Winman

One of my favorite verses of Scripture. Glad you found it. Now I have a question. Jesus Christ states:

The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus Christ in this passage is talking about those who are spiritually dead and states that those who hear HIS voice shall live, that is be spiritually alive. Now I ask you: Do all who are spiritually dead, which includes all men, hear the voice of GOD the Son and live? That would mean universal salvation which I am sure you do not believe.

So I ask you a 2nd question: Who determines which of spiritually dead shall hear the voice of GOD the Son and live?

 

[Winman]

Webdog

The phrase you quote "dead to sin" is written to believers not the unregenerate!

Romans 6:1, 2
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ephesians 2:1-8 is written about the unregenerate and uses the phrase "dead in sin".

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You must rightly divide the "Word of Truth", not splinter it, which you have done in your response!

Why do you constantly ignore Ephesians 1:13 which shows a man first hears the word of God, then believes, and only after believeing receives the Spirit?

Well, I know why, you know this contradicts your doctrine.

There is no dispute that all saved persons are quickened by the Spirit. But Jesus said his words were life and Spirit. How can you receive the Spirit unless you first receive Jesus's words?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

You must believe and receive Jesus's words to receive the Holy Spirit. If you reject the words of Jesus (the scriptures), you cannot receive the Spirit.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.


John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

 

[kyredneck]

6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Eph 2