God's election

[Amy.G]

it's a GIFT from God so that no one can boast as Ephesians 2:8-9 explains.

No. Salvation is the gift of God so no one can boast and say "look what I did to get into heaven". We cannot work our way into heaven. That is what Paul is saying. Paul makes this perfectly clear in ALL of his epistles. Grace through faith.

So you are 100% incorrect all the way around. Your theology renders Christ's death meaningless.

Yet another slam against anyone who does not agree with your theology.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. But God has always required a blood sacrifice and faith in order to be saved. Christ died for the sins of the whole world. But the whole world will not believe.
Calvinists cannot explain away Christ's death for the "whole" world.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

 

[Carico]

I'll tell you what, Winman, the bible tells us not to quarrel. So I'll go with what God says about why we need a savior:

Romans 3:11, "There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands; no one who seeks God." That means that only God's power gives anyone the desire to seek God since no one seeks God on his own.

Romans 9:11, ""For before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose in election might stand, not by works, but by him who calls, she was told; the older will serve the younger. Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." That means that God didn't choose Jacob because of his righteous works, but before he was born as He chose any of us.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this- not from yourselves. It is a gift from God so that no one can boast."

Since those words are easily understood as written, that faith is not from ourselves, I don't need to hear a mere human being turn them into the opposite.

So I'll stick with what God says because no one knows better than He does. :wavey:

 

[Winman]

So then faith is not a fruit of the Spirit, it's a fruit of the sinful nature. Is that correct? :laugh: WRONG. So why would man need regeneration if he already has faith? Perhaps he needs to be DELIVERED of his faith in God. So your belief doesn't even make sense by HUMAN standards.

So you are twisting and ignoring verses and still have not answered where faith comes from. I'll clue you in; it's not from the devil or the sinful nature. it's a GIFT from God so that no one can boast as Ephesians 2:8-9 explains.

So because you twist those verses, you have also turned Romans 9:11 into the OPPOSITE of what it says.

And I have no idea what Calvin says because I don't read Calvin. I simply use the term "Calvinist" to distinguish from the false claim that man is by nature good which non-Calvinists claim. That would mean that man wouldn't need a savior if he can already be righteous by his own free will. "There is no one righteous, not even one." That means that only the righteousness that comes from God makes anyone good. That's 100% BIBLICAL.

So you are 100% incorrect all the way around. Your theology renders Christ's death meaningless.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God. How many times do you have to see this verse before you believe it?

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And in the very same chapter Paul shows that a man cannot possibly believe unless he first hears the word of God.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Why didn't Paul ask, "and how shall they believe in him if the Father hasn't regenerated them"? Boy, you would think that would be mentioned at least once in the Bible if your doctrine is true. But it is not mentioned ever, not once.

Everything taught by Calvinism is topsy-turvy. They claim God has to regenerate you and give you gift of faith to believe. But Paul shows that faith comes by hearing the word of God and that a man cannot believe without hearing the word of God.

So if Calvinism is true, God has to regenerate you and give you faith, then you hear the word of God, and then you have a 2nd instance of faith or believeing. So you have to believe to believe. How utterly absurd. Paul or no one else in the Bible ever mentions that you have to be regenerated to believe.

And if Calvinism is true, then it is not really the death of Christ on the cross and resurrection that saves you. It is made of secondary importance. Because according to you, unless God regenerates you to believe, the gospel does nothing for you whatsoever. It is made completely moot and dependant upon God's grace in regenerating you.

Let me ask you this Carico, did Jesus die for the non-elect?

 

[Carico]

No. Salvation is the gift of God so no one can boast and say "look what I did to get into heaven". We cannot work our way into heaven. That is what Paul is saying. Paul makes this perfectly clear in ALL of his epistles. Grace through faith.



Yet another slam against anyone who does not agree with your theology.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. But God has always required a blood sacrifice and faith in order to be saved. Christ died for the sins of the whole world. But the whole world will not believe.
Calvinists cannot explain away Christ's death for the "whole" world.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Sorry, but God is not divided. So he will not tell one person that faith comes from man's sinful nature so that man can boast, and tell someone else that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast.

So it's not God who's divided, it's people who are divided as 1 Corinthians 1;11-19 says, "to show which of you has god's approval." Those who have God's approval agree with scripture as written that faith is not from ourselves; it is a gift from God so that no one can boast."

So I'll stick with scripture. If that bothers you, then you'll just have to be bothered. I have no desire to quarrel about scripture. As Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 2:23, "Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments because you know they produce quarrels."

And it's definitely a foolish and stupid argument to claim that faith in God comes from the man's sinful nature so that man can boast. So I won't listen to it any more.

 

[Amy.G]

Sorry, but God is not divided. So he will not tell one person that faith comes from man's sinful nature so that man can boast, and tell someone else that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast.

You're right. God isn't divided, but people are. You are misunderstanding the verse. That's what divides us.

So I'll stick with scripture. If that bothers you, then you'll just have to be bothered. I have no desire to quarrel about scripture. As Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 2:23, "Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments because you know they produce quarrels."

I stick with scripture as well. Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I disagree with God. Many godly men and women are not Calvinists and you will be shocked to see us in heaven.
If you do not want to argue your position and feel that it is stupid and foolish, you should not be posting here.

And it's definitely a foolish and stupid argument to claim that faith in God comes from the man's sinful nature so that man can boast. So I won't listen to it any more.

Can an unregenerated person do anything good?

 

[Winman]

And Carico, you cannot use Ephesians 2:8-9 to prove that faith is a gift. These verses have been a controversy for centuries. Some say the gift spoken of is grace, some say faith, and some say it is speaking of salvation. I agree with those that say it is speaking of salvation and not grace or faith. That is the topic of the passage.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How does this passage start? It says we were quickened who were once dead in sins. This is speaking of salvation, not grace or faith. Then it goes on to say how we once walked in the spirit of disobedience and the lusts of our flesh. So it is still speaking of salvation and that we have now received the Holy Spirit. Then it speaks of how God loved us even when we were sinners and quickened us when we were dead in sins. Yes, it says by grace we are saved, but the topic of the passage is salvation, not grace or faith. And then it says by grace we are saved through faith, and not of ourselves or by our works.

The whole passage is about being saved. This passage is not discussing grace or faith.

Look what Jesus said:

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

What is the gift of God here? It is the living water which is the Holy Spirit. Did Jesus tell her she needed to be regenerated to receive it? No, he said she need only ask.

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

What is Peter speaking about here when he says the gift of God? Once again, the Holy Spirit. He is not speaking of grace or faith.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

What is the gift here? It is life, and justification. It is not grace or faith.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What is the gift here? Eternal life.

So, I agree with those who say the gift spoken of in Ephesians 2:8-9 is salvation, not grace or faith.

 

[Carico]

You're right. God isn't divided, but people are. You are misunderstanding the verse. That's what divides us.




I stick with scripture as well. Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I disagree with God. Many godly men and women are not Calvinists and you will be shocked to see us in heaven.
If you do not want to argue your position and feel that it is stupid and foolish, you should not be posting here.


Can an unregenerated person do anything good?

Again, your answers come from scripture: Mark 10:18 "No one is good but God alone." In fact, Jesus even started out with "Why do you call me good?" That's the essence of humility.

So here's my interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves. It is a gift from God-not by works- so that no one can boast."

Notice that God's word and my interpretation of God's words are one and the same. I couldn't say it any better than God does. :thumbs:

So if you disagree with my interpretation of that passage, then you are also disagreeing with God's words because they are one and the same.

But I agree that many people don't like God's words so they put their own slant on them; add or subtract words, etc. So if you disagree with my interpretation of that passage, then which of your own words do you want to add to that passage to make it your interpretation? Perhaps the word "not' before the word gift?

 

[Amy.G]

Again, your answers come from scripture: Mark 10:18 "No one is good but God alone." In fact, Jesus even started out with "Why do you call me good?" That's the essence of humility.

I didn't ask you if anyone was good. I asked you could an unregenerate person DO good.

Can they?

 

[Carico]

I didn't ask you if anyone was good. I asked you could an unregenerate person DO good.

Can they?

Again, Jesus answers that; "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit any more than a bad tree can bear good fruit." If the tree isn't healthy on the inside, then even if the fruit of the tree looks delicious on the outside, then it can only be as healthy or unhealthy as the tree is.

So all you have to know is the difference between the "good works" of the Pharisees and the good works of born again Christians to answer your question. :wavey:

 

[Winman]

Sorry, but God is not divided. So he will not tell one person that faith comes from man's sinful nature so that man can boast, and tell someone else that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast.

So it's not God who's divided, it's people who are divided as 1 Corinthians 1;11-19 says, "to show which of you has god's approval." Those who have God's approval agree with scripture as written that faith is not from ourselves; it is a gift from God so that no one can boast."

So I'll stick with scripture. If that bothers you, then you'll just have to be bothered. I have no desire to quarrel about scripture. As Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 2:23, "Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments because you know they produce quarrels."

And it's definitely a foolish and stupid argument to claim that faith in God comes from the man's sinful nature so that man can boast. So I won't listen to it any more.

You are kicking against the pricks Carico. There is hope for you yet. :thumbsup:

 

[Amy.G]

Notice that God's word and my interpretation of God's words are one and the same. I couldn't say it any better than God does. :thumbs:

So if you disagree with my interpretation of that passage, then you are also disagreeing with God's words because they are one and the same.

You are one of the most arrogant people I have ever met on this board.

 

[Carico]

You are one of the most arrogant people I have ever met on this board.

I just quoted Christ's words. So why do you attack me for what he said? Would you not quote the same passages? So since all you do is personally attack me for quoting God's words, I will not quote them to you again.

 

[Havensdad]

Whether or not Ephesians is teaching that Faith is a gift, Romans certainly does...

Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Faith is assigned or "distributed" to you. This is absolutely inarguable from scripture. Faith is given by God.

Now if you want to talk of HOW that faith is given, then it is obvious that God distributes it through His word. The Word is NOT the determining factor, though: if it was, my father the atheist would have faith, for I have given him a lot of scripture.

No, my friends, the Word is the means by which God gives faith to His elect, as it is written, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

All of those who were appointed to eternal life, heard the word, received it, and believed. Not a SINGLE person, who was not "appointed" by God, received faith from the word.

This can be seen in the parable of the sower. The seed (which is God's word) is planted, and whether it grows to fruition or not, is determined by whether it is planted in the right soil. Only those planted in the soil of God's elect, will grow unto salvation and yield fruit.

 

[Amy.G]

So all you have to know is the difference between the "good works" of the Pharisees and the good works of born again Christians to answer your question. :wavey:

Good works are good works. Loving your children is no less good for the unbeliever than the believer. God has created us to have to ability to love and care for others. Even the most ardent atheist can be a devoted parent. God has also created all of us with the ability to believe in Him. We have faith in all sorts of things.
Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is simply believing in something you can't see. We can all do that.

 

[Amy.G]

I just quoted Christ's words. So why do you attack me for what he said? Would you not quote the same passages? So since all you do is personally attack me for quoting God's words, I will not quote them to you again.

:sleeping_2:

 

[Winman]

Jesus said the unsaved could do good things.

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Notice also that Jesus did not mention being regenerated to receive the Spirit, only that they ask just as they were.

Paul said an unsaved man could be good.

Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Here Paul speaks of two different types, a righteous man (one who is saved), and a good man (a good person, but not a saved person).

The scriptures show an unsaved person can seek God.

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

This young man was unsaved, yet he desired to be saved. He sought God. And Jesus said "thou knowest the commandments", so Jesus himself confirmed that the unsaved can understand God's word to a degree. And then when the young man said he had obeyed all the commandments from his youth, Jesus said he only lacked "one thing". So this shows that he was indeed a very good and moral person.

But he loved and trusted in his wealth more than God.

And this young man went away unsaved. But this passage shows the unsaved can desire and seek God, understand the scriptures, and do many good things.

It is because you are trapped in the teaching of Total Depravity that you cannot see this.

And what about the Philipian jailer? Did he seek God while unsaved? Yes.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

The Philipian jailer was unsaved, yet he sought after God and salvation. And we know he was not regenerated, because Paul told him he needed to believe. And notice that Paul preached the word of God to him and all that were in his house. After this he accepted Jesus and was baptized.

As long as you cling to this false doctrine of Total Depravity, you will never understand the scriptures. The scriptures clearly show that the unsaved can do some good things, and they can also have a desire and seek the Lord. And they can understand the scriptures to a degree.

 

[Carico]

Put scripture together for a change, Winman. Then you'll know why mankind needs a savior.

But if you want to contradict all the verses we've listed so you can believe that you're more righteous than atheists and everyone who rejects God, since you believe that faith and righteousness comes from yourself, you can go right ahead. But that's called self-righteousness. I know that I'm not good and can do nothing good without God. So I give him all the glory for everything good in me. If that bothers you, there's nothing I can do about it because it's the truth. So I pray that one day you'll know that "every good and perfect gift comes from above," not from our sinful nature. Good day.

 

[Havensdad]

How many times do I have to post the same scripture, before I get a reply? Why won't anyone dare to answer?

 

[Winman]

Carico

You are like a parrot, you parrot the 10 or so pet verses all Calvinists quote over and over again, and completely ignore literally hundreds of verses that absolutely contradict it.

Look in your Bible for yourself. See if the young rich man sought after eternal life. Look at the story of the Philipian jailer and see if he sought after eternal life. One man went away sad, which shows he was having a real conflict because he loved his wealth more than God, the other man accepted Jesus gladly.

Look for yourself and see if these examples are not in the Bible. And then decide whether you will believe what the scriptures show, or the teachings of a man. And not a nice man by the way, Calvin was ruthless, he had no compassion or mercy whatsoever, he burned many a person who disagreed with him at the stake. Hardly the behaviour of a man in whom the Holy Spirit resides.

But if you would rather believe a man who burned people alive who disagreed with him over the scriptures, that is your choice.

 

[Havensdad]

Good works are good works. Loving your children is no less good for the unbeliever than the believer.

This is not true.

Rom 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

There are many verses like this throughout scripture. Nothing an unbeliever does, can be "good" in the sense of "Holy and Righteous." Even good deeds, done with a wrong motive, by an uncleaned person, is sin. They are "filthy rags".