God's election

[OldRegular]

Another pet verse of Calvinist's is John 6:44 which they try to argue shows that God regenerates a man to have faith, and then the man has a desire for God. Problem is, they completely ignore the very next verse.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

A person isn't saved until they come to Christ. But this verse says that only those who are taught, and heard, and learned of the Father come to Christ. Therefore, they had to be taught, hear, and learn when they were spiritually dead in sins.

Yes, verse 44 says no man can come to God except they be drawn, but verse 45 shows it is through the scriptures. It does not say they are regenerated to have faith, it shows those who have heard and learned of the Father are the ones who come. How can you be taught and learn of the Father except through the scriptures?

Winman

Verse 44 states that all shall be taught of GOD. It does not say that all shall hear and learn. It does say that: Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Who are those who hear and come to Jesus Christ. The same ones who heard the the voice of the Son of God in John 5:25 and lived. The same ones who, though dead in sin, were made alive by GOD the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 2:5 and then given the gift of faith through which they respond to the Gospel Call. It is these of whom Jesus Christ states in John 6:44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman

I don't ignore Ephesians 1:13 I just understand it in light of other Scripture which you wish to ignore. There are a number of things that happen in salvation. You should study and understand what these are.

 

[Carico]

Old Regular, I absolutely believe that God quickened us when we were dead in sins.

But I believe it happened just like Ephesians 1:13 shows, first a man hears the word of God, then believes and trusts on Jesus Christ, and then receives the Spirit.

Ephesians chapter 2 does not discuss the order of events in salvation whatsoever. Ephesians 1:13 does.

Ephesians 2 is simply saying that God quickened us when we were dead in sins. That is absolutely true. It does not even mention hearing the gospel.

So, do you believe a man has to hear the gospel to be saved?

Again, atheists have heard the word, so have Muslims and pagans. They still don't believe. So what do you think accounts for that? their desire to go to hell? No. 1 Corinthians 2;14 tells us what accounts for that; they don't have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[webdog]

Webdog

The phrase you quote "dead to sin" is written to believers not the unregenerate!

Romans 6:1, 2
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ephesians 2:1-8 is written about the unregenerate and uses the phrase "dead in sin".

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You must rightly divide the "Word of Truth", not splinter it, which you have done in your response!

I know who it is written to, and the point stands. If dead means corpse like you use it, believers cannot sin. It has nothing to do with dividing anything, but consistency (or in your case, lack of) in how you use a term.

 

[webdog]

Again, atheists have heard the word, so have Muslims and pagans. They still don't believe. So what do you think accounts for that? their desire to go to hell? No. 1 Corinthians 2;14 tells us what accounts for that; they don't have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Try reading Romans 1. The answer is quite simple. Quite amazing that a dead person can reject truth

 

[OldRegular]

I know who it is written to, and the point stands. If dead means corpse like you use it, believers cannot sin. It has nothing to do with dividing anything, but consistency (or in your case, lack of) in how you use a term.

Physical death means corpse. Spiritual death does not. I think that I used the word dead to refer to a corpse one time. Each time I use the word dead I used it properly. Perhaps you need to read more carefully or don't be so obscure in whatever point you are trying to make.

 

[webdog]

Physical death means corpse. Spiritual death does not. I think that I used the word dead to refer to a corpse one time. Each time I use the word dead I used it properly. Perhaps you need to read more carefully or don't be so obscure in whatever point you are trying to make.

Spiritual death = spiritual corpse
Physical death = physical corpse

Dead in sin = unable to do anything due to sin (dead people can't do anything)
Dead to sin = unable to do any sin (dead people can't do anything)

There needs to be the same amount of consistency.

 

[OldRegular]

Dead to sin = unable to do any sin (dead people can't do anything)

Please exegete the following passage for me then perhaps I can understand whatever point you are trying to make. Perhaps I am obtuse but possibly it is you!

Romans 6:1-14
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[webdog]

Please exegete the following passage for me then perhaps I can understand whatever point you are trying to make. Perhaps I am obtuse but possibly it is you!

Romans 6:1-14
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

We are to be totally and completely separated to sin, in the same way "dead in sin" means we are totally and completely separated from God due to sin.

 

[OldRegular]

We are to be totally and completely separated to sin, in the same way "dead in sin" means we are totally and completely separated from God due to sin.

Then I don't see why you have a problem with what I have written related to either dead in sin or dead to sin.

 

[Carico]

Try reading Romans 1. The answer is quite simple. Quite amazing that a dead person can reject truth

A spiritually dead person can't comprehend the truth as 1 Corinthians 2:14 explains. That's why they're called spiritually dead. Only the indwelling Holy Spirit gives us eternal life. One cannot be saved without being born again. One cannot have faith without the Spirit of God because as 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 says, only the Spirit of God can understand the mind of God. That's why atheists cannot believe until they are born again.

That's scriptural and nothing can change it, not you, not anyone.

 

[webdog]

A spiritually dead person can't comprehend the truth as 1 Corinthians 2:14 explains. That's why they're called spiritually dead. Only the indwelling Holy Spirit gives us eternal life. One cannot be saved without being born again. One cannot have faith without the Spirit of God because as 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 says, only the Spirit of God can understand the mind of God. That's why atheists cannot believe until they are born again.

That's scriptural and nothing can change it, not you, not anyone.

Back to that same passage I see...

What does Romans 1 say? Those who rejected the truth clearly are spiritually dead...how can they reject something? Scripture states they KNOW the truth (comprehend) yet reject it for a lie. The spiritually dead CAN comprehend the truth as stated in Scripture. That's scriptural and nothing can change it, not you, not 1 Corinthians 2:14, not anyone. Scripture never contradicts, so you really need to take a second look at your proof text.

 

[Carico]

Back to that same passage I see...

What does Romans 1 say? Those who rejected the truth clearly are spiritually dead...how can they reject something? Scripture states they KNOW the truth (comprehend) yet reject it for a lie. The spiritually dead CAN comprehend the truth as stated in Scripture. That's scriptural and nothing can change it, not you, not 1 Corinthians 2:14, not anyone. Scripture never contradicts, so you really need to take a second look at your proof text.

Put scripture together. Don't make Romans 1 contradict the verses I quoted. So when you put them together instead of make them contradict each other, then we can discuss them.

Another thing you can do; you can ask any atheist if he knows that Jesus is Lord. He will say that Jesus is a fairy tale...not because he just loves hell, but because as 1 Corinthians 2;14 explains, he cannot understand the things of God. But you obviously do not believe that verse. If you did then you could put it together with Romans 1. So you first need to believe the words in the bible; only then can you reconcile them together.

 

[webdog]

Put scripture together. Don't make Romans 1 contradict the verses I quoted. So when you put them together instead of make them contradict each other, then we can discuss them.

I see...you can't possibly be wrong!

I didn't make anything contradict Scripture. I showed how your view of a particular Scripture contradicts the truth of what Scripture is actually saying.

 

[webdog]

I'll help you out here on how your understanding a spiritually dead person cannot comprehend the truth...

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

One cannot exchange the truth without knowing it and comprehending it, plain and simple.

 

[Carico]

I see...you can't possibly be wrong!

I didn't make anything contradict Scripture. I showed how your view of a particular Scripture contradicts the truth of what Scripture is actually saying.

Do you believe: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned?" Yes or no? if you believe that verse, then you also know that only the man born again of the Holy Spirit can believe in God. It's that simple.

Do you know why Jesus calls the Holy Spirit the Spirit of truth? Do you know why Satan exists and what he does to people?Apparently not. Do you know who has victory over Satan and why? Do you know why mankind needs a redeemer?

 

[webdog]

Another thing you can do; you can ask any atheist if he knows that Jesus is Lord. He will say that Jesus is a fairy tale...not because he just loves hell, but because as 1 Corinthians 2;14 explains, he cannot understand the things of God. But you obviously do not believe that verse. If you did then you could put it together with Romans 1. So you first need to believe the words in the bible; only then can you reconcile them together.

Quit with the ad hominems...how old are you? I believe the Bible (capitalized, btw...you rarely capitalize God's Holy Word)...I don't believe your understanding of the Bible.
Your favorite proof text doesn't contradict Romans 1, in fact it further supports what I have been saying from Romans 1 (they do not accept / exchange the truth for a lie...they are foolishness / they became fools)

 

[Carico]

Quit with the ad hominems...how old are you? I believe the Bible (capitalized, btw...you rarely capitalize God's Holy Word)...I don't believe your understanding of the Bible.
Your favorite proof text doesn't contradict Romans 1, in fact it further supports what I have been saying from Romans 1 (they do not accept / exchange the truth for a lie...they are foolishness / they became fools)

Sorry but again, my interpretation of 1 Corinthians 2:14 is; "The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

So if you don't like my interpretation, then you don't like God's word because my interpretation and God's word are one and the same. There is no difference between them. And I'm not going to change one word God said for you or anyone. Sorry.

 

[webdog]

Do you believe: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned?" Yes or no?

Of course I believe that verse, why wouldn't I?

if you believe that verse, then you also know that only the man born again of the Holy Spirit can believe in God. It's that simple.

Actually, it isn't. This is the false understanding you have. First, if one passes from spiritual death to spiritual life (regenerated, born again) they have ALREADY BELIEVED in Christ. The order you put forth makes absolutely no sense. It is BY FAITH we are born again. If you are spiritually alive prior to faith in Christ, it is meaningless.

Do you know why Jesus calls the Holy Spirit the Spirit of truth?

Yes

Do you know why Satan exists and what he does to people?

Yes

Apparently not.

Do you know who has victory over Satan and why?

Yes

Do you know why mankind needs a redeemer?

Yes

Of course, you don't view me as a brother in Christ so you assume I am also spiritually dead and cannot possibly understand these things in my "natural" state...

 

[webdog]

Sorry but again, my interpretation of 1 Corinthians 2:14 is; "The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

So if you don't like my interpretation, then you don't like God's word because my interpretation and God's word are one and the same. There is no difference between them. Sorry.

...and you continue to hold yourself up on par with God's Word. "Disagree with me and you disagree with God". Cults use this same technique, btw... Be prepared to answer for such brash arrogance one day.