Cause verses Allows

[Marcia]

Job 2:10But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Context, context!

First of all, this is Job speaking, not God. Remember, Job did not know what was happening - he never knew about Satan's part in this.

There is nothing to show that God creates or causes evil. How would God do this since God doesn't sin?

Maybe we need to be more basic: what is evil?

Evil is not a force swirling around out there. Evil results from sinful actions.

 

[steaver]

Context, context!

First of all, this is Job speaking, not God. Remember, Job did not know what was happening - he never knew about Satan's part in this.

There is nothing to show that God creates or causes evil. How would God do this since God doesn't sin?

Maybe we need to be more basic: what is evil?

Evil is not a force swirling around out there. Evil results from sinful actions.

You shout "context"? "Job did not know what was happening"?

Job knows exactly what was happening and it was "bad", not "good". And Job speaks truth to his wife as he states "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? " And "God's Word" then declares that what Job has said thus far including what he just said to his dear wife is indeed a "righteous " statement......"In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

Maybe we do need to clarify what "evil" is. Is it a "good" thing? No, then it must be a "bad" thing. Is disasters that kill and destroy a "good" thing? No, they are "bad" things.

Tell me what "judgment" God was bringing upon Job? God says first off.... Job 1:1¶There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

You keep saying that these clamities are a result of God's judgment on sin. The scripture states that God thought very highly of Job and God was not bringing disaster to Job because of any "judgment".

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
Job 1:22¶In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

What is this? Job has thus far said that it was the Lord who has brought disaster upon him and it was the Lord who was taking away His protection and blessing. Yet, this is not seen as charging God "foolishly".

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

What's this? God moving against Job without a cause to destroy him!

What about "judgment"?

:jesus:

 

[Johnv]

I don't think you answered her question. Did God plan Jesus' murder or did He just allow it?

I already answered that. God doesn't "plan" for a sin to be perpetrated, but God always has the last word, and his perfect plan uses the result of sin to His Glory.

 

[Marcia]

What was God's judgment on Job?

What did God do to Job? He tested him by allowing Satan to afflict him. This does not show that God is the author of evil (more accurately, sin).

Do you think that every bad thing that happens to you is God doing it? Or God allowing it?

Also, now we are talking about bad things happening, like losing people to death and illness. We were talking before about acts of sin.

 

[Revmitchell]

What say you people?

Jhn 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
Jhn 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.


Pilate, having the power to protect Jesus, allowed Jesus to be murdered.

Now Pilate did not cause the people to kill Jesus, he only allowed it.

Was Pilate innocent of the murder?

:jesus:

So what are you disagreeing with Marcia about here? Do you believe that God is the first cause behind every action?

 

[steaver]

What did God do to Job? He tested him by allowing Satan to afflict him. This does not show that God is the author of evil (more accurately, sin).

.

Wait a minute. You said disaster and clamity was a "judgment" by God upon sin. Job was receiving disaster and clamity from God.

God said He had no cause to destroy Job. Notice the scripture says "God is the one doing the destroying.

Here it is again....

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

God doing the destroying and for no cause on Job's part.

God destroying.

For no fault of Job's.

Do you think that every bad thing that happens to you is God doing it? Or God allowing it?

Either way, God is in control of every situation. So I agree with Job. If I suffer evil it has been approved for me by God. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Also, now we are talking about bad things happening, like losing people to death and illness. We were talking before about acts of sin.

No, we are talking about God creating disasters (evil, same difference) and you said when God does this it is to pass judgment on sin. This leads us to Job who God said he was destroying for no fault of Jobs.

So does the "God destroying always for judgment" theory of yours stand up? I don't think it has.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

So what are you disagreeing with Marcia about here? Do you believe that God is the first cause behind every action?

"Every action" is quite a broad brush. Do you mean if I decide to beat my wife it was God who caused me to do it? Not at all.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

I already answered that. God doesn't "plan" for a sin to be perpetrated, but God always has the last word, and his perfect plan uses the result of sin to His Glory.

Would you say Jesus' murder was a sin?

Who planned it?

If God did not plan Jesus death then who planned mankind's redemption? Satan? The Jews who cried crucify Him? The Romans?

Do you believe God looked down the corrador of time and said to Himself "Oh look! They are going to kill my Son! Well, I will just make Him a sacrifice for sin then. That'll fix em! I'll have the last word on that"?

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

Wait a minute. You said disaster and clamity was a "judgment" by God upon sin. Job was receiving disaster and clamity from God.

In other instances you brought up before Job, yes (you brought up killing people in pagan lands, I believe). I said that was judgment. You brought in Job later, as I recall. The case of Job is not the same as killing the pagans. For Job it was a case of testing, which is a different scenario and I don't see how this supports what you seemed to be saying before, that God leads people to sin. I disagreed with that.

God said He had no cause to destroy Job. Notice the scripture says "God is the one doing the destroying.

Here it is again....

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

God doing the destroying and for no cause on Job's part.

God destroying.

For no fault of Job's.

It seems God is saying, "You are asking me to destroy Job." But then God says:

So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."

God let Satan do the afflicting, which is what I've said all along.

Either way, God is in control of every situation. So I agree with Job. If I suffer evil it has been approved for me by God. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

You changed from sin to disaster. The original debate with us was: does God cause sin? I say no. What we are speaking of here with Job does not relate to that, as far as I can see.

 

[steaver]

In other instances you brought up before Job, yes (you brought up killing people in pagan lands, I believe). I said that was judgment. You brought in Job later, as I recall. The case of Job is not the same as killing the pagans. For Job it was a case of testing, which is a different scenario and I don't see how this supports what you seemed to be saying before, that God leads people to sin. I disagreed with that.

You changed from sin to disaster. The original debate with us was: does God cause sin? I say no. What we are speaking of here with Job does not relate to that, as far as I can see.

Actually Marcia, look back through your post on this thread. You brought up disasters and judgment and this is why we are discussing this now.

It seems God is saying, "You are asking me to destroy Job." But then God says:

Come now Marcia. God has already "allowed" Satan to attack Job's family and possessions when He says this....

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

You are ignoring the text Marcia. God initiated this destruction of Job and it was not due to any "judgment". You say it was a "test" for Job, I agree! This doesn't somehow take away from the fact that this "destroying", which you say is not "evil", has come from God and has come without cause concerning Job's actions.

:godisgood:

 

[Marcia]

Actually Marcia, look back through your post on this thread. You brought up disasters and judgment and this is why we are discussing this now.

I really don't have that kind of time, Steaver. I probably should not even be participating here. Disasters can be judgment but if I made a categorical statement that all disasters are God's judgment, then I misspoke. However, I was not thinking of Job in terms of disaster - I was thinking of other things such as earthquakes and larger disasters.

Come now Marcia. God has already "allowed" Satan to attack Job's family and possessions when He says this...

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

You are ignoring the text Marcia. God initiated this destruction of Job and it was not due to any "judgment". You say it was a "test" for Job, I agree! This doesn't somehow take away from the fact that this "destroying", which you say is not "evil", has come from God and has come without cause concerning Job's actions.

It does not seem it has happened yet in the story. This is before Satan afflicts Job, is it not?

Even if God initiated it (which I still say is debatable) this in no way shows that God sins, causes sin, or leads men to sin.

 

[steaver]

Marcia;

But Steaver, when God does these things, they are not evil!!!!! God does not murder; when people die as a result of what God is doing, or what He does through others (as what happened to many in the OT), it was execution of His judgment. That is not murder.

What was Job's sin?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

I really don't have that kind of time, Steaver. I probably should not even be participating here. Disasters can be judgment but if I made a categorical statement that all disasters are God's judgment, then I misspoke. However, I was not thinking of Job in terms of disaster - I was thinking of other things such as earthquakes and larger disasters.

.

It was just two pages back, on page two when you entered this thread.

You had presented a commentary that said "evil" is a wrong translation. that it should be rightly translated as "disaster" in Isaiah 45.

Here in Job, the same Hebrew word "ra" is also translated as "evil" in the KJV as well as other contemporary translations. The commentator for some reason believes that "ra" should be "calamity" instead of "evil" and I am just assuming that he would say the same about Job thinking this somehow changes the context of the text, which it does not.

It does not seem it has happened yet in the story. This is before Satan afflicts Job, is it not?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job has lost his children, his servants and his wealth (chp 1) and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Even if God initiated it (which I still say is debatable) this in no way shows that God sins, causes sin, or leads men to sin.

God never sins, yet God does have absolute power and authority over all things, including sin. If God wants to cause Pharoah to sin by hardening his heart then He is just and righteous in doing so even though He Himself cannot be blamed.

Job is a fantastic example of the sovereignty of God in all things even controling the evil that comes upon men, even good men like Job.

Job never once mentions Satan causing any of his pain and suffering. He sees all that happens to him as being from God alone. Whether it be blessings or evil. Job recognizes the sovereignty of the LORD and we should learn this great truth from what God has done to Job.

Yes, God uses Satan to carry out these evils, but Satan is God's tool under God's command for God's purposes and to reveal God's power and glory.

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

What was Job's sin?

:jesus:

I didn't say Job sinned!

 

[Marcia]

It was just two pages back, on page two when you entered this thread.

Not sure when that was, but I've been out of town on a speaking trip and I'm being interviewed on the radio in less than 2 hrs. Then I leave town again on Friday to speak in NC. Plus I have lots of emails to answer that come through my website.

You had presented a commentary that said "evil" is a wrong translation. that it should be rightly translated as "disaster" in Isaiah 45.

Here in Job, the same Hebrew word "ra" is also translated as "evil" in the KJV as well as other contemporary translations. The commentator for some reason believes that "ra" should be "calamity" instead of "evil" and I am just assuming that he would say the same about Job thinking this somehow changes the context of the text, which it does not.


Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job has lost his children, his servants and his wealth (chp 1) and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

What is your point? Calamity hit Job, yes, and he retained his faith. This does not prove God leads men to sin.

God never sins, yet God does have absolute power and authority over all things, including sin. If God wants to cause Pharoah to sin by hardening his heart then He is just and righteous in doing so even though He Himself cannot be blamed.

The original point we debated was whether God leads men to rebel against a ruler or government which Rom. 13 forbids. I do not think you have shown that God leads people to do this. Pharoah was already opposed to God; when God hardened his heart, what does that mean? In context, it means that God gave Pharoah over to his hardened heart and let it harden more. He used Pharoah's opposition to God. It was not that Pharoah was believing God and God hardened him. There are many debates over what this means and I sure don't have time for it here.


J

ob is a fantastic example of the sovereignty of God in all things even controling the evil that comes upon men, even good men like Job.

This is different from saying that God leads men to sin.

 

[steaver]

What is your point? Calamity hit Job, yes, and he retained his faith. This does not prove God leads men to sin.

Calamity caused by God. The OP is "Cause verses Allow".

I had asked the question concerning Pilate. Pilate had the power to save Jesus from the crowd. Pilate decided to "allow" the crowd to kill Jesus. Did Pilate sin in doing so? Or was he innocent? Did Pilate "cause" Jesus death or did he "allow" Jesus' death? And what would be the difference seeing Pilate had the power and the last word on the matter?

The original point we debated was whether God leads men to rebel against a ruler or government which Rom. 13 forbids. I do not think you have shown that God leads people to do this.

Jesus said Pilate had no power over Him except it be given by God. Did Pilate sin by "allowing" Jesus to be killed?

Pharoah was already opposed to God; when God hardened his heart, what does that mean? In context, it means that God gave Pharoah over to his hardened heart and let it harden more. He used Pharoah's opposition to God. It was not that Pharoah was believing God and God hardened him. There are many debates over what this means and I sure don't have time for it here.

Well said! And my point remains. God caused Pharoah to disobey Him, just as the scripture clearly states. And God was just in doing so and without sin because God is always just and righteous in His ways. It is His world and His plans and He gets to do it His way.

Steaver; Job is a fantastic example of the sovereignty of God in all things even controling the evil that comes upon men, even good men like Job.

Marcia;This is different from saying that God leads men to sin.

Please explain how it is different. You said God was "testing" Job. For what? To see if Job would sin against Him?

:godisgood:

 

[steaver]

I didn't say Job sinned!

Marcia;

But Steaver, when God does these things, they are not evil!!!!! God does not murder; when people die as a result of what God is doing, or what He does through others (as what happened to many in the OT), it was execution of His judgment. That is not murder.

Job said God was bringing disaster upon him. God did this by killing Job's children and servants as a start. What would be God's execution of judgment here? Maybe Job's children and servants were committing idolatry that we are not told anything about. But the scripture does tell us that it was Job who was God's focus and the reason for God's "clamity". So this is why I asked what Job's sin was to bring God's "judgment" upon him. Job's friends sure thought he committed some sort of sin. They thought like you, that surely God would not bring disaster unless it was for judgment!

I'm siding with Job. Are you siding with Job's friends and wife?

Shall we receive good from the LORD and not evil also?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

I'm siding with Job. Are you siding with Job's friends and wife?

Shall we receive good from the LORD and not evil also?

:jesus:

This is a good question for everybody. Who here sides with Job and who here sides with his friends and wife?

Job is saying 'I did not sin for this evil and yet this evil has come from God'. Job's friends say it is a judgment for sin Job must have committed.

What do you think? Who do you side with?

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

Job said God was bringing disaster upon him. God did this by killing Job's children and servants as a start.

:jesus:

God didn't kill them; Satan did. Yes, God gave Satan permission but God did not do this directly. However, even if God were to do this, it would not be a sin. I don't see how this relates to God leading men to sin.

What would be God's execution of judgment here? Maybe Job's children and servants were committing idolatry that we are not told anything about. But the scripture does tell us that it was Job who was God's focus and the reason for God's "clamity". So this is why I asked what Job's sin was to bring God's "judgment" upon him. Job's friends sure thought he committed some sort of sin. They thought like you, that surely God would not bring disaster unless it was for judgment!

Why do you keep asking me the same question? I said Job didn't sin. That's the whole point of Job - he endured these trials without knowing why. And he never knew why.

In other OT events, God does strike down people as judgment. This was how people saw it then - but Job is a special case to show us Job's faith.

Shall we receive good from the LORD and not evil also?

Whatever happens to me comes through the filter of God but that does not mean he caused it.

He did not make me an astrologer; He did not make me decide to do the bad things I did - I did all those on my own.

You are talking about 2 different things here:
1. Calamities that befall us (and these vary - some in the OT were judgments, although for Job it was a testing); some we don't know why they happened

2. People sinning

God does not lead people to sin.

 

[steaver]

Why do you keep asking me the same question? I said Job didn't sin. That's the whole point of Job - he endured these trials without knowing why. And he never knew why.

In other OT events, God does strike down people as judgment. This was how people saw it then - but Job is a special case to show us Job's faith.



.

How can it be you say that Job never knew why?

Job says it was God bringing evil upon him. Is this Job not knowing and making a false analysis of the situation? The scripture says that what Job said to his wife and friends, which was recorded for us to read [ Job 1:22¶In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.] ,was no foolish charge against God, even though Job had said it was evil sent from God.

You are talking about 2 different things here:
1. Calamities that befall us (and these vary - some in the OT were judgments, although for Job it was a testing); some we don't know why they happened

What is the test Marcia? A test of faith? If so, what happens if Job fails? What would Job's failure to pass the test look like? Would it be cursing God? Is not cursing God a sin? Then isn't God tempting Job to sin if this is a test? If it is a test of faith then Job failing would be cursing God and not believing on Him any longer, no?

James says God does not tempt any man to sin. So the account of Job cannot be God testing Job to see if Job will sin (curse God, stop trusting in Him).

It must be something else. How about this? How about it being God wanting Job and us to know His sovereign authority over every thing, including evil that comes upon us, that His hand is commanding the angels, both good and bad to do His will and make His power and glory known?

How about letting Job's words stand true, "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

I don't see any evidence in the scripture that says this was a test for Job's faith from God. It is obvious it was a very trying time for Job and it could be said that God was tempering Job's faith, but I don't see any testing which would be tempting Job to sin.



:jesus: