Cause verses Allows

[steaver]

Sin is the falling short of God's standard (a negative), not some [positive] "thing" that He must have created along with everything else. It's really not a duality. There's God's will, and there's other than God's will. Once God ordained a will, there was automatically the possibility of something else.

.

"there was automatically the possibility of something else" ??

Where did sin come from?

Was it not in the creation of the will?

If it wasn't, then free will has no meaning. There would be no ability to do evil if evil was not an option.

It's not refusing to seek the answer. Because you too will reach a point where you will claim an answer can't be known. And that's when the reason God willed people to be lost is raised. Then, you, along with the Calvinists, pledge "his Higher purpose".

I already have my answer to this, God can and does seal a person's fate after much longsuffering, allowing them time to repent and choose. Again, it is both. God's will to give personal free will time to choose and then God's will to close that door and the invitation is void.

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

But we will still know and enjoy this in the regeneration and know even more joy than we could have known without experiencing sin and salvation.

We can't know that; that's just a subjective view. We cannot possibly know what we could have experienced with no sin entering the world.

To a degree, but not to the fullest of degrees. Adam could not know God's mercy and grace without experiencing seperation and condemnation. Think also about what I said if man never sinned, wouldn't man think he was no less than God? Satan wanted to be as God and so did Adam. God had to teach them that they cannot ever be as God. That they must count on God for their own life.

Think of your own life experiences. We really cannot and do not appreciate, and many times even understand many things, unless we go through it first hand.

I don't make theological assumptions based on my experiences. Think of that passage, "Should we sin so grace can abound more? Certainly not!"

This is the great quandary concerning sin. Joseph told his brothers "you meant it for evil (sin), but God meant it for good (it was still sin)". So it was evil that his brother's sinned against Joseph and against God's word, yet it was also a "good thing".

Doesn't these things beg you to ponder, make your mind come alive! It excites me to know that God is sovereign and righteous even in the evil that man does! God TOTALLY in control! It makes me reverence Him more and more as I dig into these mysteries, and yes, much will remain a mystery, at least in this life, but hasn't He given us a good bit of insight into these things and we are reluctant to look at them for some reason? Why? Why does these things make us so uncomfortable?

I'm not reluctant. Yes, I know God uses evil for good, but that does not make me glad there is evil (sin).

Does the bible teach us that sin is both a "bad thing" and a "good thing" but we ignore what it is saying?

What!! Sin is never good. Sin is offensive to God. Sin is what put Christ on the cross and made Him suffer beyond our wildest imaginings. We are to hate sin as much as God does.

How about Joseph's words to his brothers? Do you see how God is at work even using sin? There is a song on the album "Ending is Beginning" by the group Downhere that says God "leverages even sin" (An excellent album btw, I highly recommend it). Sin is bad, it is evil, but God uses it. I would say He even "causes" it when He wants something fulfilled for a good. We don't like that word "cause". But "Cause verses Allow" what really is the difference?

There is one. I do not think God causes sin because He is sinless and good.

 

[steaver]

What!! Sin is never good.

You already said, "Yes, I know God uses evil for good". It was good that God used sin to send Joseph to Egypt. Is was good that God used sin to sacrifice Jesus Christ.

I do not think God causes sin because He is sinless and good.

God is sinless and good. God hates sin. So why did God "allow" sin?

:jesus:

 

[swaimj]

What if Adam never sinned and all of creation never sinned?

Man would be perfect just like God. And man would not see himself as any different than God. And man would not know the love of God and the mercy of God and the power of God and the Sovereignty of God high and above all things! God would have nothing more than a perfect puppet.

I really disagree with you here, Steaver. This line of argument seems to say that before Adam sinned, he thought he was equal with God. He thought no such thing. In fact, the serpent's argument to Eve was that if she ate the fruit she would be like God. In no way did Adam think himself equal to God before he sinned and he would have been incapable of thinking such a thing as long as he did not disobey the command God gave.

As for what Adam knew, his fellowship with God was so pure and holy before he sinned that it is WE who have no understanding of God's love, mercy, power, and sovereignty compared to what Adam knew prior to his sinning.

How does God reveal His love, mercy, glory and power any other way than to create a being that has to fail so that being can understand God's attributes and his desperate need for God's love?

Can you see a better way? Do you think it would have been great if Adam never sinned? Would you love God the way you do now?

Steaver, God has chosen to reveal His attributes most perfectly to sinners through His Son. However, prior to sin, Adam had full fellowship with God and knew God's attributes in a way that we can and never will know until God delivers us into the eternal state. If Adam had not sinned, we would know God much better than we do now and we would love God perfectly because we would be free from sin. This ultimate knowledge and love will be ours when we are delivered into the eternal state and are then made free of sin again as Adam was. For now it is unknowable. One thing is sure, Adam's knowledge of it prior to sinning was far greater than what we can know today.

 

[Eric B]

"there was automatically the possibility of something else" ??

Where did sin come from?

Was it not in the creation of the will?

If it wasn't, then free will has no meaning. There would be no ability to do evil if evil was not an option.

You're still treating it as some thing as in a duality, that God in some way created just by creating anything. There are religions that teach this equal "duality" of good and evil, but those aren't exactly compatible with the Biblical concept, where God is supreme.

I already have my answer to this, God can and does seal a person's fate after much longsuffering, allowing them time to repent and choose. Again, it is both. God's will to give personal free will time to choose and then God's will to close that door and the invitation is void.

:jesus:

But it's not "allowing" them time to repent, if He has willed that they won't. Or, if you go into the other view, that He foresaw, which again, the Calvinists will say leads back to their view.

We just do not have enough information to build a solid doctrine off of this.

 

[Marcia]

You already said, "Yes, I know God uses evil for good". It was good that God used sin to send Joseph to Egypt. Is was good that God used sin to sacrifice Jesus Christ.

Yes, but that doesn't make sin good. Steaver, we are supposed to hate sin.

God is sinless and good. God hates sin. So why did God "allow" sin?

We don't know. God doesn't tell us. I think we can go too far and create bad theology trying to explain something God does not tell us.


The more we love God, the more we should hate sin, as He does.

There are six things which the LORD hates,
Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
17Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,
18A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,
19A false witness who utters lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers. Prov. 6

The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity. Ps 5:5

'Also let none of you devise evil in your heart against another, and do not love perjury; for all these are what I hate,' declares the LORD." Zech 8:17

3because of their wickedness which they committed so as to provoke Me to anger by continuing to burn sacrifices and to serve other gods whom they had not known, neither they, you, nor your fathers.
4'Yet I sent you all My servants the prophets, again and again, saying, "Oh, do not do this abominable thing which I hate. Jer. 44:3-4

 

[steaver]

As for what Adam knew, his fellowship with God was so pure and holy before he sinned that it is WE who have no understanding of God's love, mercy, power, and sovereignty compared to what Adam knew prior to his sinning.

Steaver, God has chosen to reveal His attributes most perfectly to sinners through His Son. However, prior to sin, Adam had full fellowship with God and knew God's attributes in a way that we can and never will know until God delivers us into the eternal state. If Adam had not sinned, we would know God much better than we do now and we would love God perfectly because we would be free from sin. This ultimate knowledge and love will be ours when we are delivered into the eternal state and are then made free of sin again as Adam was. For now it is unknowable. One thing is sure, Adam's knowledge of it prior to sinning was far greater than what we can know today.

If this is true, then you should be able to explain to me how Adam knew these attributes of God;

How did Adam know mercy?

How did Adam know justice?

How did Adam know the greatest love of all, that a man lay down his life for his friend?

Please don't say he "just knew" because he had sweet fellowship with God. God could have told Adam "I am full of mercy and grace", and Adam could of said "that's nice", but Adam could not possibly know what mercy meant or what it was for without understanding his own failure towards God and a need for mercy and grace.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

You're still treating it as some thing as in a duality, that God in some way created just by creating anything. There are religions that teach this equal "duality" of good and evil, but those aren't exactly compatible with the Biblical concept, where God is supreme.
But it's not "allowing" them time to repent, if He has willed that they won't. Or, if you go into the other view, that He foresaw, which again, the Calvinists will say leads back to their view.

We just do not have enough information to build a solid doctrine off of this.

So your answer is we cannot know where sin came from?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Yes, but that doesn't make sin good. Steaver, we are supposed to hate sin.



We don't know. God doesn't tell us. I think we can go too far and create bad theology trying to explain something God does not tell us.


The more we love God, the more we should hate sin, as He does.

Sister, I do hate sin. As you posted "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" God forbid! But if it wasn't for my sin, I would not know God's mercy. So the law (sins strength) is good to condemn me that it may point me to Jesus and I may know His mercy and grace.

You have resigned to not knowing. I believe it has been revealed all thoughout the scriptures yet most cannot bear to deal with it. we throw up our hands and say "we cannot know".

Here is a simple question to think about; How can a person know God's mercy and grace without knowing sin?

I believe God's plan was and is for Adam and all of mankind to know sin that they may know God's grace.

Can you think of any other "perfect" plan? This is God's plan remember. God chose this plan. Could there have been a better plan? This does not make God evil nor does it make God part of sin. It does make sin God's idea, yet God is perfect and holy!

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

Sister, I do hate sin. As you posted "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" God forbid! But if it wasn't for my sin, I would not know God's mercy. So the law (sins strength) is good to condemn me that it may point me to Jesus and I may know His mercy and grace.

You have resigned to not knowing. I believe it has been revealed all thoughout the scriptures yet most cannot bear to deal with it. we throw up our hands and say "we cannot know".

It's not a matter or being resigned to not knowing. God does not tell us. He doesn't tell us everything, Steaver. In order to know all God knows, we would have to be God.

Here is a simple question to think about; How can a person know God's mercy and grace without knowing sin?

I believe God's plan was and is for Adam and all of mankind to know sin that they may know God's grace.

Can you think of any other "perfect" plan? This is God's plan remember. God chose this plan. Could there have been a better plan? This does not make God evil nor does it make God part of sin. It does make sin God's idea, yet God is perfect and holy!

I agree we know God's mercy when we see our sin and know Christ. But that does not make sin a good thing, nor does it mean we have to know sin to know God's mercy. There are ways God could show mercy or could have shown mercy without sin that we may not know about.

The Mormons think it was good that Adam disobeyed God because it allowed man to leave heaven and come to earth (they think we were all spirits in heaven first) and tread the path to godhood. I think any way of sounding like one is grateful for sin takes us into very bad directions.

 

[swaimj]

How did Adam know mercy?

How did Adam know justice?

How did Adam know the greatest love of all, that a man lay down his life for his friend?

Adam knew God personally and one-to-one because he had complete fellowship with God in the absence of sin. Steaver, the point of redemption when it is consumated is to RESTORE Adam's original state to men. Then, we too will know God in the absence of sin and our knowledge and fellowship will be infinitely greater then than it is now. Otherwise, why would we long for eternity?

 

[steaver]

It's not a matter or being resigned to not knowing. God does not tell us.

God has revealed His plan and His purpose. God chose this plan we are in. Is it a perfect plan or is it flawed? Has Jesus Christ been glorified in this plan?

There are ways God could show mercy or could have shown mercy without sin that we may not know about.

So you think maybe God had a few ways He could have done this, maybe even a better way, but He chose the one we have?

The biblical definition of mercy would be this...

1.compassionate or kindly forbearance shown toward an offender, an enemy, or other person in one's power; compassion, pity, or benevolence: Have mercy on the poor sinner.


God's plan was Adam (all creation) fails (sins). God becomes man (second Adam, Jesus Christ) and cannot fail (sin) because God is Perfect, Holy, Sinless. God's Grace and Mercy is revealed to all creation.

You believe there might have been another way? A better way?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Adam knew God personally and one-to-one because he had complete fellowship with God in the absence of sin. Steaver, the point of redemption when it is consumated is to RESTORE Adam's original state to men. Then, we too will know God in the absence of sin and our knowledge and fellowship will be infinitely greater then than it is now. Otherwise, why would we long for eternity?

I agree, however you did not answer the questions.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Then, we too will know God in the absence of sin and our knowledge and fellowship will be infinitely greater then than it is now. Otherwise, why would we long for eternity?

And we will carry into the regeneration an understanding and a deep loving appreciation for God's Grace, Mercy and Sovereign Power! Something we could never have known without God's perfect plan.

:godisgood:

 

[swaimj]

You may have a point here, Steaver, but I'm not sure. It is true that the angels who never sinned do not understand or appreciate salvation the way redeemed people do.

On the other hand, you seem to be agreeing with me that our understanding will be greater in the eternal state than it is now. Previously, you have argued, as in this statement

Can you see a better way? Do you think it would have been great if Adam never sinned? Would you love God the way you do now?

that we, in our PRESENT state, have greater appreciation for God's attributes than Adam had in his pre-fall state. That is where I disagree with you. Will we have a greater appreciation for God's attrubutes in the eternal state because we experienced the fall and redemption? Perhaps. After all, "the one who is forgiven the greatest, loves most". Do we have that appreciation now in our current redeemed but unglorified state; greater than Adam's love and knowledge of God? I don't see how you make that argument.

 

[steaver]

On the other hand, you seem to be agreeing with me that our understanding will be greater in the eternal state than it is now.

Of course understanding will be greater when we see Him face to face. I agree with this because scripture says so. What I am focused on is pre-fall verses the here and now. I believe that in the regeneration, or maybe even shortly after we each die, all of these debates over different topics will be settled by the final Authority and debate and any misinterpretings will cease. I believe we will know the full magnitude of what God has accomplished in His creation.

...that we, in our PRESENT state, have greater appreciation for God's attributes than Adam had in his pre-fall state. That is where I disagree with you. Will we have a greater appreciation for God's attrubutes in the eternal state because we experienced the fall and redemption? Perhaps. After all, "the one who is forgiven the greatest, loves most". Do we have that appreciation now in our current redeemed but unglorified state; greater than Adam's love and knowledge of God? I don't see how you make that argument.

I make the argument from my questioning, which btw no one has taken a stab at giving an answer to.

How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's mercy?

How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's justice?

God could have told Adam that He is Mercy and Just. And what would this mean to Adam? Adam would have to just accept it like a good puppet without any mind to think OR Adam would say to God "what is mercy Lord?"

Tell me how Adam could have understood what one of God's attributes is, mercy, without seeing or knowing of any need for such a thing?

Adam would have to first have the knowledge of good and evil in order to comprehend mercy, grace and justice, even the greatest love of all, God dying for His friends. And how does Adam gain this knowledge? Sound familiar?

:jesus:

 

[Eric B]

So your answer is we cannot know where sin came from?

Not WHERE it came from. It comes from anything that is not up to God's standards. It's when you try to answer that hypothetical question by saying God created it, or whayever, that you have a problem.

Of course understanding will be greater when we see Him face to face. I agree with this because scripture says so. What I am focused on is pre-fall verses the here and now. I believe that in the regeneration, or maybe even shortly after we each die, all of these debates over different topics will be settled by the final Authority and debate and any misinterpretings will cease. I believe we will know the full magnitude of what God has accomplished in His creation.

I make the argument from my questioning, which btw no one has taken a stab at giving an answer to.

How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's mercy?

How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's justice?

God could have told Adam that He is Mercy and Just. And what would this mean to Adam? Adam would have to just accept it like a good puppet without any mind to think OR Adam would say to God "what is mercy Lord?"

Tell me how Adam could have understood what one of God's attributes is, mercy, without seeing or knowing of any need for such a thing?

Adam would have to first have the knowledge of good and evil in order to comprehend mercy, grace and justice, even the greatest love of all, God dying for His friends. And how does Adam gain this knowledge? Sound familiar?

You're making grace and mercy ends in themselves. They are "ends" for us, because we're already in the fallen state. But as attributed of God, there is no need for God to create sin, just so people can experience these two attributes. (Especially when it leads to so many more not experiencing it). The focus is on knowing God, and we can know Him through His attributes. But the attributes do not become ends in themselves to be "known" as such, like that.

 

[Marcia]

God has revealed His plan and His purpose. God chose this plan we are in. Is it a perfect plan or is it flawed? Has Jesus Christ been glorified in this plan?


So you think maybe God had a few ways He could have done this, maybe even a better way, but He chose the one we have?


God's plan was Adam (all creation) fails (sins). God becomes man (second Adam, Jesus Christ) and cannot fail (sin) because God is Perfect, Holy, Sinless. God's Grace and Mercy is revealed to all creation.

You believe there might have been another way? A better way?

:jesus:

Your questions are false dichotomies.

 

[steaver]

Not WHERE it came from. It comes from anything that is not up to God's standards. It's when you try to answer that hypothetical question by saying God created it, or whayever, that you have a problem.

You're making grace and mercy ends in themselves. They are "ends" for us, because we're already in the fallen state. But as attributed of God, there is no need for God to create sin, just so people can experience these two attributes. (Especially when it leads to so many more not experiencing it). The focus is on knowing God, and we can know Him through His attributes. But the attributes do not become ends in themselves to be "known" as such, like that.

God's grace and mercy is "eternal". Always was, always will be. No beginning, no end.

Still waiting for answers to my questions;

How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's mercy?

How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's justice?

God could have told Adam that He is Mercy and Just. And what would this mean to Adam? Adam would have to just accept it like a good puppet without any mind to think OR Adam would say to God "what is mercy Lord?"

Tell me how Adam could have understood what one of God's attributes is, mercy, without seeing or knowing of any need for such a thing?

Adam would have to first have the knowledge of good and evil in order to comprehend mercy, grace and justice, even the greatest love of all, God dying for His friends. And how does Adam gain this knowledge? Sound familiar?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Your questions are false dichotomies.

Can you explain what you mean by "false dichotomies"?

Explain what is false and dichotomy about them.

Is it false that God chose this plan we are in?

Here are my questions again;

God has revealed His plan and His purpose. God chose this plan we are in. Is it a perfect plan or is it flawed? Has Jesus Christ been glorified in this plan?


So you think maybe God had a few ways He could have done this, maybe even a better way, but He chose the one we have?


God's plan was Adam (all creation) fails (sins). God becomes man (second Adam, Jesus Christ) and cannot fail (sin) because God is Perfect, Holy, Sinless. God's Grace and Mercy is revealed to all creation.

You believe there might have been another way? A better way?

:jesus: