Cause verses Allows

[Marcia]

Can you explain what you mean by "false dichotomies"?

Explain what is false and dichotomy about them.

A false dichotomy is the fallacy of the false choice or the false dilemma. Study up on logical fallacies sometime; you might find it helpful. There are many, such as appeal to pity, hasty generalization, red herring, straw man, ad hominem, and many more.

Here are two sources:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/fallacies.html


You present me with 2 choices, as though those are the only 2 possible alternatives. Then you say if I disagree with one, I must agree with the other. This only works if there really are only 2 choices, such as either dead or alive, pregnant or not pregnant, etc. It is not true for all choices.

Here are my questions again;

God has revealed His plan and His purpose. God chose this plan we are in. Is it a perfect plan or is it flawed? Has Jesus Christ been glorified in this plan?


So you think maybe God had a few ways He could have done this, maybe even a better way, but He chose the one we have?


God's plan was Adam (all creation) fails (sins). God becomes man (second Adam, Jesus Christ) and cannot fail (sin) because God is Perfect, Holy, Sinless. God's Grace and Mercy is revealed to all creation.

You believe there might have been another way? A better way?

It is not a question of believing another way. Or is God's plan perfect or flawed? Those are the 2 choices you give. But what is God's plan? Did God plan for man to sin or make him sin? If you think that, I disagree, and your question is flawed if you cannot prove it.If you study what a false dichotomy is, you will understand why what you ask here is a good example of it. There are other views outside of what you present.

 

[steaver]

A false dichotomy is the fallacy of the false choice or the false dilemma. Study up on logical fallacies sometime; you might find it helpful. There are many, such as appeal to pity, hasty generalization, red herring, straw man, ad hominem, and many more.

Here are two sources:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/fallacies.html


.

I did not ask you "what" a false dichotomy is.

You present me with 2 choices, as though those are the only 2 possible alternatives. Then you say if I disagree with one, I must agree with the other. This only works if there really are only 2 choices, such as either dead or alive, pregnant or not pregnant, etc. It is not true for all choices.

There is only two possible choices in my question. Either God's plan is perfect or it is flawed. So there is nothing false dichotomy about the question. If there is another choice to my question then just simply give it!

It is not a question of believing another way. Or is God's plan perfect or flawed? Those are the 2 choices you give. But what is God's plan? Did God plan for man to sin or make him sin? If you think that, I disagree, and your question is flawed if you cannot prove it.

Then you answered my question anyway. Your answer is that God did not plan for Adam to sin. I find this answer incorrect because if God did not plan for Adam to sin then why did God plan on Jesus Christ being sacrificed for Adam's sin even before He created the world?

I have proven that God planned Adam's sin because God planned Jesus' sacrifice before the foundation of the world.

You have not presented any other possiblities even though you cliam they exist.

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

I did not ask you "what" a false dichotomy is.

There is only two possible choices in my question. Either God's plan is perfect or it is flawed. So there is nothing false dichotomy about the question. If there is another choice to my question then just simply give it!

It depends on what you mean by God's plan.

Then you answered my question anyway. Your answer is that God did not plan for Adam to sin. I find this answer incorrect because if God did not plan for Adam to sin then why did God plan on Jesus Christ being sacrificed for Adam's sin even before He created the world?

I have proven that God planned Adam's sin because God planned Jesus' sacrifice before the foundation of the world.

You have not presented any other possiblities even though you cliam they exist.

You did not prove at all that God planned Adam's sin! God's plan of salvation could be because He knew man would sin. That is not the same thing.

 

[Marcia]

Steaver, you will continue to say God planned Adam's sin and/or causes man to sin, and I will continue to disagree. :type:

Today is my birthday and my son's birthday and I don't want to spend it going back and forth on this topic. :jesus:

 

[steaver]

You did not prove at all that God planned Adam's sin! God's plan of salvation could be because He knew man would sin. That is not the same thing.

It really is the same thing Marcia. Think about it. God is Sovereign. God could have looked ahead just as you said and said NO! That plan is no good for evil will come and Adam will sin. But God said YES! I will go forth with this plan and I will reveal to all creation My great power, mercy and grace! I will glorify My Son beyond measure! And all will then know Me and those who truly want Me and want to love Me will be My precious children and I will be a Wonderful Father to them.

Could there be a more perfect plan? I know of none.

Today is my birthday and my son's birthday and I don't want to spend it going back and forth on this topic. :jesus:

God bless you and once again I appreciate your imput. Before I totally embrace this pov I have been working on, I want it to be jabbed at from every angle to see if it holds up. So far I haven't seen any good argument against it, only emotional pleas. When you get the time I would like to hear some of those other views on this.

:jesus:

 

[swaimj]

How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's mercy?

How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's justice?

I think part of the reason I disagree with you is that you seem to be saying that mercy and justice are responses to sin exclusively. If so, how did the members of the Trinity know the perfect attributes of themself prior to sin's entrance into the world and they then exercised the attributes. Are we saying that God "grew" in his knowledge as a result of what happened in time? I don't think this is an option. No, God knows all things fully and completely for all eternity.

Well, if God does this, is it not possible that Adam had knowledge of God's justice and mercy conceptually prior to his encounter with sin and his need for said justice and mercy. Conceptually, it is possible, but we simply do not know the answer to this. What we do know is that Adam's state prior to his sin was preferable to his state after and we know that his fellowship with God was greater before than after, and we know that his original state is the promised state to which we will return in the future.

We simply do not know what we will know or what we will feel in the eternal state. Indeed we could not know it because it is beyond our comprehension. Paul alludes to this in II Corinthians when he tells of his experience or entering into heaven.

To build our theology on something that we know so little about seems speculative to me and unhelpful.

In short, I do not know how Adam knew of God's mercy or justice prior to his sin. But, I know that mercy and justice are eternal attributes of God and I know that Adam know God better before the fall than you and I know Him or can no Him while we are in this flesh. You simply cannot prove that Adam's knowledge of mercy and justice was greater after the fall than it was before.

 

[steaver]

I think part of the reason I disagree with you is that you seem to be saying that mercy and justice are responses to sin exclusively. If so, how did the members of the Trinity know the perfect attributes of themself prior to sin's entrance into the world and they then exercised the attributes. Are we saying that God "grew" in his knowledge as a result of what happened in time? I don't think this is an option. No, God knows all things fully and completely for all eternity.

First let me say I appreciate you spending some time and thought on this subject. Iron sharpens iron and we are ever learning when it comes to our Great God.

I did not say anything about God's attributes developing through time due to God making adjustments or learning about His creation. I said, God's mercy, grace and justice along with everything else God is is Eternal. No beginning and no end. Mercy and grace has always been and God has always known just what He is. So I am not sure why you would think I was saying any such thing when I did state that God's attributes are eternal, in fact, the very fact that they are eternal is a positive for my case.

...is it not possible that Adam had knowledge of God's justice and mercy conceptually prior to his encounter with sin and his need for said justice and mercy. Conceptually, it is possible, but we simply do not know the answer to this.

I appreciate this proposed theory as a rebutal to what I am proposing. In order for a theory to carry some value it must withstand intense scrutiny.

So could God have placed in Adam the knowledge of mercy and grace without Adam ever experiencing or witnessing these things? I think this is what you mean by "conceptually".

I believe God's word reveals to us that this is absolutely not possible. Here is why;

Mercy and Justice are moral qualities of God. These are "good" things, but not only "good" things but also "moral" things. Food can be a "good" thing but it is not a "moral" thing. Carrots are good for you to eat and are good for your health, but have nothing to do with a "moral good".

So could Adam have had the knowlege of God's "good morals" before the fall? Adam knew that food was "good", but did Adam know God's "goodness"?

Consider this scripture...

Gen 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Gen 3:5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

What we do know is that Adam's state prior to his sin was preferable to his state after and we know that his fellowship with God was greater before than after, and we know that his original state is the promised state to which we will return in the future.

Do we really "know" all of these things? Or do we repeat a theory of what we have been told over and over?

I know that Adam knew God better before the fall than you and I know Him or can know Him while we are in this flesh. You simply cannot prove that Adam's knowledge of mercy and justice was greater after the fall than it was before.

I believe the scripture says that Adam's knowledge of "good and evil" was zero before the fall.

God Bless! :jesus:

 

[billwald]

Why is God required to have a plan? Maybe he has an outline.

 

[Marcia]

...In short, I do not know how Adam knew of God's mercy or justice prior to his sin. But, I know that mercy and justice are eternal attributes of God and I know that Adam know God better before the fall than you and I know Him or can no Him while we are in this flesh. You simply cannot prove that Adam's knowledge of mercy and justice was greater after the fall than it was before.

I think this is the best response yet. I agree with it.

Steaver asked: Mercy and Justice are moral qualities of God. These are "good" things, but not only "good" things but also "moral" things. Food can be a "good" thing but it is not a "moral" thing. Carrots are good for you to eat and are good for your health, but have nothing to do with a "moral good".

So could Adam have had the knowlege of God's "good morals" before the fall? Adam knew that food was "good", but did Adam know God's "goodness"?

Mercy and justice are eternal attributes of God, whether we label them moral or not. Adam did know God before the Fall more intimately than after, when sin separated him from God.

You seem to be arguing that only through sin can man know God's mercy; but you cannot prove this. God is able to reveal his attributes in any way He desires that suits his purposes. Just because we know only of this through sin does not mean it's the only way.

 

[steaver]

Why is God required to have a plan? Maybe he has an outline.

I'm listening........go on.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Originally Posted by swaimj
...In short, I do not know how Adam knew of God's mercy or justice prior to his sin. But, I know that mercy and justice are eternal attributes of God and I know that Adam know God better before the fall than you and I know Him or can no Him while we are in this flesh. You simply cannot prove that Adam's knowledge of mercy and justice was greater after the fall than it was before.


I think this is the best response yet. I agree with it.

If this is the best argument then my theory is moving ever closer to being proven, at least with the information we have been given in the scriptures.

You guys say, "You cannot prove Adam's knowledge before the fall". And then you guys keep saying, "Adam did know God before the Fall more intimately than after, when sin separated him from God".

Now what scripture has informed you that God knew Adam more intimately before the fall?

God is able to reveal his attributes in any way He desires that suits his purposes. Just because we know only of this through sin does not mean it's the only way.

So just because God, through sin, has taught us about His mercy and justice doesn't mean God didn't have another way? Or even a better way?

By this pov you are saying to God, "You could have done it better". Or, "Even though God had another way, God chose to ALLOW sin". Now why would God chose the sin way IF He thought there was another way, or a better way? Surely God, being perfect, would have done this the BEST way! No?

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

If this is the best argument then my theory is moving ever closer to being proven, at least with the information we have been given in the scriptures.

You guys say, "You cannot prove Adam's knowledge before the fall". And then you guys keep saying, "Adam did know God before the Fall more intimately than after, when sin separated him from God".

Now what scripture has informed you that God knew Adam more intimately before the fall?

Adam did not have sin between him and God.

So just because God, through sin, has taught us about His mercy and justice doesn't mean God didn't have another way? Or even a better way?

By this pov you are saying to God, "You could have done it better". Or, "Even though God had another way, God chose to ALLOW sin". Now why would God chose the sin way IF He thought there was another way, or a better way? Surely God, being perfect, would have done this the BEST way! No?

I see no reason why God could not show mercy another way. You keep saying justice - but justice would be sending us to hell. God is showing us mercy instead of justice through Christ.

I and you do not know why God allowed sin; that's the bottom line. All else is speculation. And we certainly can't surmise that this is the only way God could have revealed his mercy.

 

[swaimj]

Now what scripture has informed you that God knew Adam more intimately before the fall?

None. I never said that. God knows each of us intimately both prior to the fall and after. I said that Adam knew God more intimately before the fall.

 

[steaver]

None. I never said that. God knows each of us intimately both prior to the fall and after. I said that Adam knew God more intimately before the fall.

Come now swaimj....stay with this.

Ok, I'll fix it for you...

Now what scripture has informed you that Adam knew God more intimately before the fall?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Adam did not have sin between him and God.
.

True, but this does not equate to knowing God more intimately. We know that before the Fall Adam had no knowledge of God's good attributes such as love, mercy and grace.

I don't see how Adam could have loved God as you say, with such a wonderful perfect love, and then choose to disobey God over one single fruit when he had tons of food to eat.

I don't see why Adam would want to gain "knowledge" if he already had a wonderful knowledge of what "good" was.

I see no reason why God could not show mercy another way. You keep saying justice - but justice would be sending us to hell. God is showing us mercy instead of justice through Christ.

Beaten beyond recognition, having His back laid open with deep lashes, despised and rejected, spit upon, His beard torn out of His face with chunks of flesh, spikes driven through His wrist, through the median nerve so it may cause the most pain, spikes driven through His heels, raised up and slammed into the hole causing His joints to dislocate, left to hang there in terrific pain for hours..................

"I see no reason why God could not show mercy another way". God did it the best way, the perfect way and I would say the only way. His ways are far above our ways. I highly doubt God pondered over a few different ways.

There is no other way I could love and appreciate God more. None. God performed the perfect way to reveal His eternal love to His creation. Adam was created to fail. Jesus Christ is glorified. Perfect plan, So perfect. Praise Him!

:jesus:

I and you do not know why God allowed sin; that's the bottom line. All else is speculation. And we certainly can't surmise that this is the only way God could have revealed his mercy.

Are you sure you don't know why Marcia?

It is written all throughout the scriptures.......to reveal Himself and glorify His name!

raying:

 

[Marcia]

True, but this does not equate to knowing God more intimately. We know that before the Fall Adam had no knowledge of God's good attributes such as love, mercy and grace.

What? Adam didn't know God's love?? God is love, Steaver. Of course Adam knew God's love. I don't think there is any way you can show that Adam did not know God's mercy and grace, and I'm astonished you would say he didn't know God's love.

I don't see how Adam could have loved God as you say, with such a wonderful perfect love, and then choose to disobey God over one single fruit when he had tons of food to eat.

Really? You mean when we sin it shows we don't love God? I do love God but I still sin.

I don't see why Adam would want to gain "knowledge" if he already had a wonderful knowledge of what "good" was.

You're trying to get into the mind of Adam or you are projecting your own views on Adam. They were also told they would be like God - pretty big temptation there.

There is no other way I could love and appreciate God more. None. God performed the perfect way to reveal His eternal love to His creation. Adam was created to fail. Jesus Christ is glorified. Perfect plan, So perfect. Praise Him!

But this is just your subjective view. You have not shown there is not other way to know God's mercy.

 

[steaver]

.What? Adam didn't know God's love?? God is love, Steaver. Of course Adam knew God's love. I don't think there is any way you can show that Adam did not know God's mercy and grace, and I'm astonished you would say he didn't know God's love.

Yes, God is Love. You have read that God is love, but how do you know what love is? Don't you need to experience it?

Really? You mean when we sin it shows we don't love God? I do love God but I still sin.

Yes, but you believe Adam had a deep intimate relatioship with God that we cannot fathom! Adam had no sin tainting his life as we do.

You're trying to get into the mind of Adam or you are projecting your own views on Adam. They were also told they would be like God - pretty big temptation there.

I have only reitterated the scripture to you. We have been told, there is no speculating from my part.

But this is just your subjective view. You have not shown there is no other way to know God's mercy.

We have been given knowledge of only one way. I have accepted it. You believe there could be other ways even though you have not given any scenarios for me to consider. My view is based on what I am told by God in the scriptures.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

I was reading through Genesis chapters 1-3 again looking specifically for information concerning Adam's relationship with God pre-fall. There is not one reference to intimacy. No mention of wonderful exchanges of great love either revealed by God towards Adam or vise versa.

I did notice something interesting though. We have been taught and have accepted the teaching that Adam's relationship with God before the Fall must have been so sweet, so pure, so perfect, so full of love. All because of one fact, which is, Adam had no sin between him and God, and God is love.

Ok, this is a fact, Adam had no sin between him and God pre-fall. Does this then translate to Adam having a deep loving relationship between him and God?

Think about this; If Adam had a perfect loving relationship with God, and God seen it as a perfect loving relationship, then why does God say ....

Gen 2:18¶And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.



Alone?? But Adam had God! And without any sin to taint the relationship. Why would God say Adam was alone? Didn't God physically walk with Adam daily? Wasn't Adam and God inseperable without sin? Intimate and full of sweet love?

Could it be? Adam was "alone"? No companionship, no one to love or to receive love from?

Actually, there is no scripture that speaks of God walking along side of Adam and them having sweet loving fellowship before the Fall. There isn't any scripture that indicates Adam even seen God or some manifestation of God. We know Adam heard God and we know God placed Adam in the garden, but that is all the scripture tells us.

The stories we have been told are simply just that, stories. Speculations, imaginations of what it must have been like. But this is from the perspective of us knowing God's grace and mercy. SO we assume Adam knew what we know but was without sin. Fact is, Adam didn't have this knowledge before the Fall.

If we look at the scripture and what it says we find these hard facts;

1) God believed it was not good for Adam to be alone (2:18), even though Adam had a relationship with God and it was without sin.
2) Adam had no knowledge of good. (2:17)
3) Adam had no knowledge of evil. (2:17)
4) God made availiable to Adam the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (2:9)
5) God allowed Satan to tempt Adam. (3:1-5)
6) God allowed Adam to disobey (sin). (3:6)
7) Adam gained the knowledge of good and evil. (3:22)
8) Adam begins his lessons on justice, forgiveness, mercy, grace and love. (3:17-24)

:wavey:

 

[Marcia]

Yes, God is Love. You have read that God is love, but how do you know what love is? Don't you need to experience it?

And who says Adam didn't experience it? He was made out of the ground by God - he was a "son of God" because he had no human parent. What a wonderful relationship with God to have!

Yes, but you believe Adam had a deep intimate relatioship with God that we cannot fathom! Adam had no sin tainting his life as we do.

The 2nd sentence supports the view of the 1st one.

I have only reitterated the scripture to you. We have been told, there is no speculating from my part.

You are speculating. You are stating that there could not be another way to know God's mercy except through allowing man to sin.

We have been given knowledge of only one way. I have accepted it. You believe there could be other ways even though you have not given any scenarios for me to consider. My view is based on what I am told by God in the scriptures.

I accept what God says as well. But there is no place that says this is the only way God can show mercy.

 

[steaver]

And who says Adam didn't experience it?

That would be God who says so. We read in the scripture that Adam had "....no knowledge of good...." (Gen 2:17)

He was made out of the ground by God - he was a "son of God" because he had no human parent. What a wonderful relationship with God to have!

They say ignorance is bliss! Having no knowledge of good and evil might have been blissful. Depends on your pov I guess.

You are speculating. You are stating that there could not be another way to know God's mercy except through allowing man to sin.

No, I am accepting that this is the way God chose to reveal Himself to His creation.

I accept what God says as well.

You say you accept it, but I don't know....do you accept that Adam had no knowledge of good and evil?

:jesus: