Where does believing faith come from part 2

[saturneptune]

No, not at all. But then everyone knows you make false charges a lot of the time.

You are exactly right. Saving faith and faith required to believe common, everyday events here on earth is not the same. For example, I have faith enough to know that every time you post a thought, it is going to be smart alec. That is not saving faith.

Implying that someone is not saved because they do not agree with your theological posts certainly has nothing in common with saving faith or loving your neighbor. Looking at John Calvin with sparkles in your eyes also has nothing to do with saving faith.

Personally I wish you would have an arminian epiphany and start arguing for the other side.

 

[Benefactor]

The end result of this process (though likely this is an nearly instantaneous process), is salvation, yes.

I was also noticing that their seems to be two different word structures that are translated to being born again. The phrase "anagennao" seems to refer to the entire process of salvation, whereas "gennao anothen" refers to the initial step of the salvation process, which is an act of the Holy Spirit himself (and is translated better "born from above").

Looking at John 3 we have, as you pointed out, gennatha anothen (as in B-greek GENNhQHh ANWQEN) "if he might be born" from above - which as you know is a subjunctive aorist passive third person singular and is translated the same as the present subjunctive active "if he might be born". Here the verb indicated a lost state with mild contingency of possibility thus the "subjunctive aorist passive". Passive because it is the Holy Spirit that works this spiritual birthing. Aorist because once a person is saved will saved is past. We will note that it is not set as ongoing but as punctiliar (aorist). As such the aorist for me settles the idea that it is an act that is instant, "if" and when it happens (subjunctive). We note that the instant (aorist) sees the reality of birth as instant but its existance (duration) is on going. D and M express it thus using death as the example: "he died" and we would say with respect to this form "he borned" or more litterally "he might be borned" in that it is subjunctive. Bad English but proper illustration.

gennathanai anothen in verse 7 (B-greek spelling would be GENNHQHNAI ANWQEN) Here gennathanai is an infinitive aorist. I understand this to be a verbal infinitive not a substantival infinitive and as such this is what it means to me: aorist again taking on the say meaning as explained above. The verbal infinitive is not expressing contingency. Contingency is not being considered here. What is considered is the delema Nicodemus is having understanding "born from above". The word "dei", just prior, is translated surprised or behoove: It is as I see it an expression of anciousness on Nics part and Jesus sees this in him. This of course reflects the natural mind we are all captured in - the sin nature, "what is this spiritual birth?" Nick is

Conclusion: I don't see any reference to a process in either uses of the two forms other than its relationship to "aorist" which is a point in time "action" and if and when it is the results are ongoing, not as being reborn over and over again but as remaining in that state which, for me means, that the liner aspect of remaining in the state of being birthed spiritually supports the view of security, that is a personal conviction and not necessarily what the text says with regard to my personal view. None the less the two forms of born from above are to me an instant happening when it happens.

 

[Benjamin]

Personally I wish you would have an arminian epiphany and start arguing for the other side.

It may have already begun...

Originally Posted by Rippon
They'll opt for being called biblicists -- which in reality is Arminian

 

[Winman]

Back to the original topic. The scriptures say faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The scriptures do not say a man has to be regenerated or enabled by God to hear the word of God. Jesus himself confirmed that the lost could hear the word of God.

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Jesus compares the unsaved here to the "way side". This is the area between the plowed rows that you walk on, it is hard and pressed down. The seed cannot penetrate this soil and so the seed lays on the surface where the birds (Satan) comes and takes it away. These people have a hard and rebellious heart.

Mark 4:4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

Jesus describes the good ground as those with an honest and good heart (his words, not mine) who receive the word and keep it, and bring forth fruit.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Nowhere in this passage does Jesus say that God performs a miracle on these persons. In this parable, God is the sower, and he sows the same identical seed to all hearers.

The difference in this parable is the hearer. After telling this parable, Jesus tell his disciples to take heed and be very careful how and what they hear. He tells them that if they will listen, then more will be given to them. But if they do not receive his words, then even that which was given shall be taken away, which he shows by those he calls the "way side" that the fowls or Satan takes away.

Mark 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

Do you have ears on the sides of your head? Then Jesus is speaking to you. So Jesus's words are for everyone, not just the elect.

The Bible never gives the impression that lost man cannot hear God's word and obey. If fact, God repeatedly commands men to hear and obey. He promises to bless those who do, and curse those who don't.

Deut 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
15 And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full.
16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
17 And then the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.
18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
19 And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
20 And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
21 That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.
22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;
23 Then will the LORD drive out all these nations from before you, and ye shall possess greater nations and mightier than yourselves.
24 Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be.
25 There shall no man be able to stand before you: for the LORD your God shall lay the fear of you and the dread of you upon all the land that ye shall tread upon, as he hath said unto you.
26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
29 And it shall come to pass, when the LORD thy God hath brought thee in unto the land whither thou goest to possess it, that thou shalt put the blessing upon mount Gerizim, and the curse upon mount Ebal.
30 Are they not on the other side Jordan, by the way where the sun goeth down, in the land of the Canaanites, which dwell in the champaign over against Gilgal, beside the plains of Moreh?
31 For ye shall pass over Jordan to go in to possess the land which the LORD your God giveth you, and ye shall possess it, and dwell therein.
32 And ye shall observe to do all the statutes and judgments which I set before you this day.

It is absolutely clear here that man has the ability to hear God and obey him, and man also has the ability to turn away in rebellion. And because man has this ability, God can justly hold a man responsible.

 

[OldRegular]

The scriptures do not say a man has to be regenerated or enabled by God to hear the word of God. Jesus himself confirmed that the lost could hear the word of God.

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

That is the whole point. The lost hear it but it does not do any good at that time. How many times did you hear the Gospel preached before you responded?? The first time?????/

 

[Winman]

That is the whole point. The lost hear it but it does not do any good at that time. How many times did you hear the Gospel preached before you responded?? The first time?????/

Well, the first time I can remember hearing the gospel, or at least part of it was in Vacation Bible School at a neighbor's house when I was maybe 8 or 9 years old. I was given a verse to memorize, and the verse I was given was John 3:16.

Now, I believed this verse completely, although I do not think I understood it properly. I thought at the time if I just believed Jesus Christ was the Son of God, that I had eternal life.

A few years later when I was around 10 or 11 (can't remember the exact date), I was invited to church by a neighbor who had served as a missionary in Afghanistan. That day the pastor preached on sin and the punishment of hell for the sinner from the Bible. I absolutely believed it and it terrified me. When the pastor invited folks to come down and learn how they could receive Jesus and be forgiven of their sins, I nearly ran down. I did not want to go one more second in danger of going to hell. They showed me the Romans road where I was a sinner, but Jesus died for me and that if I would trust him I would be saved. They asked me if I wanted to invite Jesus into my heart. I sincerely did and prayed right then and there and asked Jesus to forgive my sins and come into my heart. And you know, I could tell something happened to me and I haven't been the same since. Many years later my brother told me that my father had said to him that "your brother had a religious experience when he was young". So even my father noticed this.

That is my testimony, that is when I received Jesus. I never remember hating the scriptures or God. I certainly have disobeyed God many times, I have sinned more since I was saved than before. But I was a young man when I got saved and fairly innocent. But even as a child I knew I had lied, and not always listened to my parents, so I knew I had broken God's law.

How about yourself, when did God regenerate you to believe?

 

[Winman]

That is the whole point. The lost hear it but it does not do any good at that time. How many times did you hear the Gospel preached before you responded?? The first time?????/

I do not think that is the point of the parable of the sower whatsoever. Jesus is explaining why some do not believe, and why others do, but do not bear fruit. But those who hear and keep God's word will bear fruit.

Those by the way side had hard hearts of unbelief. These are those who do not want to hear. They have sin in their life that they love more than God's righteousness. They consider God's word for a moment, but then realize they will have to give up this sin. Surely you have known people who are doing something wrong and harmful to themselves or others, and will not listen to you or anybody else, even when you try to help them, and will not give up a harmful activity. The jails are full of men whose mother's and father's begged and pleaded with them to live right. But they loved their sin and continued in it. Sin is how Satan draws men away.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

2 Thess 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[OldRegular]

Insofar as man himself is aware, the initial event in salvation is the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. It is an observable fact that not all who hear the Gospel accept it and come to salvation. Some do and some do not. The Apostle Paul tells us why

1 Corinthians 2:14, KJV
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Jesus Christ vividly demonstrate this difference between the effect of the gospel call on the unregenerate man and the regenerate man in the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23, KJV
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

In this parable four people heard the Gospel call but only one, the last, received the ‘effectual call’. He received the seed into good ground, ground that had been prepared through regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

In the Sermon on the mount Jesus Christ teaches:

Matthew 7:21, KJV
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Later Jesus Christ will tell us the will of the Father.

John 6:29, KJV
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Speaking to those who followed Him after the feeding of the five thousand, Jesus demonstrates or defines the ‘effectual call’ of God:

John 6:37, KJV
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44, KJV
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Rippon]

You are exactly right. Saving faith and faith required to believe common, everyday events here on earth is not the same.

I'm glad to hear that you agree with me on this.

Implying that someone is not saved because they do not agree with your theological posts certainly has nothing in common with saving faith or loving your neighbor. Looking at John Calvin with sparkles in your eyes also has nothing to do with saving faith.

As a troll you are the best.

Personally I wish you would have an arminian epiphany and start arguing for the other side.

Where's my fly-swatter?

 

[Benefactor]

Back to the original topic. The scriptures say faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The scriptures do not say a man has to be regenerated or enabled by God to hear the word of God. Jesus himself confirmed that the lost could hear the word of God.

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Jesus compares the unsaved here to the "way side". This is the area between the plowed rows that you walk on, it is hard and pressed down. The seed cannot penetrate this soil and so the seed lays on the surface where the birds (Satan) comes and takes it away. These people have a hard and rebellious heart.

Mark 4:4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

Jesus describes the good ground as those with an honest and good heart (his words, not mine) who receive the word and keep it, and bring forth fruit.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Nowhere in this passage does Jesus say that God performs a miracle on these persons. In this parable, God is the sower, and he sows the same identical seed to all hearers.

The difference in this parable is the hearer. After telling this parable, Jesus tell his disciples to take heed and be very careful how and what they hear. He tells them that if they will listen, then more will be given to them. But if they do not receive his words, then even that which was given shall be taken away, which he shows by those he calls the "way side" that the fowls or Satan takes away.

Mark 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

Do you have ears on the sides of your head? Then Jesus is speaking to you. So Jesus's words are for everyone, not just the elect.

The Bible never gives the impression that lost man cannot hear God's word and obey. If fact, God repeatedly commands men to hear and obey. He promises to bless those who do, and curse those who don't.

Deut 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
15 And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full.
16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
17 And then the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.
18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
19 And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
20 And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
21 That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.
22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;
23 Then will the LORD drive out all these nations from before you, and ye shall possess greater nations and mightier than yourselves.
24 Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be.
25 There shall no man be able to stand before you: for the LORD your God shall lay the fear of you and the dread of you upon all the land that ye shall tread upon, as he hath said unto you.
26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
29 And it shall come to pass, when the LORD thy God hath brought thee in unto the land whither thou goest to possess it, that thou shalt put the blessing upon mount Gerizim, and the curse upon mount Ebal.
30 Are they not on the other side Jordan, by the way where the sun goeth down, in the land of the Canaanites, which dwell in the champaign over against Gilgal, beside the plains of Moreh?
31 For ye shall pass over Jordan to go in to possess the land which the LORD your God giveth you, and ye shall possess it, and dwell therein.
32 And ye shall observe to do all the statutes and judgments which I set before you this day.

It is absolutely clear here that man has the ability to hear God and obey him, and man also has the ability to turn away in rebellion. And because man has this ability, God can justly hold a man responsible.

Truth Triumphs and Trumps the Tulip
Great Post

 

[Benefactor]

Faith



Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is (1) the assurance of things hoped for, (2) the conviction of things not seen. Faith then is trust in something that cannot be seen, but is hoped for. What exactly is this that can't be seen, but hoped for? How is this understood in light of John 20:29 "Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." In this case some believed that saw Jesus and others that did not see Him. Faith then cannot be in the man Jesus per say, but in the message of what is offered, "hoped for" that the person, this case Jesus, can do or deliver. What good is an expression of faith in a man? If we say I have faith in a man and we know nothing of the man then there is nothing to believe in. Faith would be in a skill, or past record of performance or in a promise, something that gives hope. In the case with Jesus we know from Scripture, which we also take by faith as God's word, the things hoped for which are not seen, which are specifically expressed in God's word.



Also, one key word has far reaching implications as used in this verse, the word “things”. The definition given by the author of Hebrews does not seem to have a theological definition in mind but an accepted understanding of the definition of faith, one that would be normal and understood in the time in which it was written. The average reader would understand this kind of language as the accepted norm in its historical setting to convey the idea and understanding of faith in anything, in this case the "hope" of what is given by God in the then existing writings of Scripture.

 

[webdog]

For the "faith is a gift crowd", if something is given to someone as a gift, the giver owns the gift. How can God own faith to give since He's omni everything?

 

[Winman]

Insofar as man himself is aware, the initial event in salvation is the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. It is an observable fact that not all who hear the Gospel accept it and come to salvation. Some do and some do not. The Apostle Paul tells us why

1 Corinthians 2:14, KJV
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Jesus Christ vividly demonstrate this difference between the effect of the gospel call on the unregenerate man and the regenerate man in the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23, KJV
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

In this parable four people heard the Gospel call but only one, the last, received the ‘effectual call’. He received the seed into good ground, ground that had been prepared through regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

In the Sermon on the mount Jesus Christ teaches:

Matthew 7:21, KJV
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Later Jesus Christ will tell us the will of the Father.

John 6:29, KJV
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Speaking to those who followed Him after the feeding of the five thousand, Jesus demonstrates or defines the ‘effectual call’ of God:

John 6:37, KJV
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44, KJV
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It says the hearer by the way side heard, but that the fowls came and took away the seed "sown in their heart".

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

The fault here is not with the Lord. He sowed the seed of the word of God in their hearts. But their hearts were hard and could not receive the word. Like hard, trodden down earth, the seed could not penetrate and lay on the surface where the fowls, also explained as Satan takes the word away.

Their problem was sin. They heard the word. But they did not want to receive it because then they would have to give up sin. It is the love of sin that makes a person's heart hard against the gospel.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Here Paul describes the unsaved as having a hard and impenitent heart. This is a person who refuses to repent, or turn from sin.

Jesus said men do not come to him because they love evil.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

This is what Jesus meant when he said the fowls or Satan come and take the word sown in their hearts away. Men hear and consider the gospel, but then they weigh that against the sin they love and choose sin. This is how Satan operates, he offers the pleasures of sin. And they are pleasureable for awhile, but their end is death.

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Romans 1 shows that unsaved men know of God, but put him from their minds. They also know the judgment of God, but have pleasure in sin, and others that do likewise.

2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

These verses speak of those who God allows Satan to deceive. But it is because they loved and had pleasure in sin that God allows Satan to deceive them.

And this is the soil by the way side. They hear the gospel, and could believe if they chose to do so. But they love their sin and turn away. Therefore God allows Satan to come and take away that which was given them.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman

The problem was they were not of the ELECT.

 

[Benefactor]

Winman

The problem was they were not of the ELECT.

The elect were not always the elect in the temporal sense but were eternally based on foreknowledge. So all that are presently reprobate / lost in the temporal sense that will freely believe will then be elect so that is not a problem, we just need to accept that election is according to foreknowledge as the Bible tells us and get off this Crazy Calvinist Cruse away from what the word says.

 

[Winman]

It does not say that. In fact, the parable of the sower shows that Jesus sowed the word of God in their hearts. Now why would he do that if he had chosen from the beginning of time to condemn them?

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Jesus did not treat these people any differently than those he described as good ground. He sowed the same exact seed (the word of God) to them, and he sowed it in their hearts.

The difference was the hearer, and Jesus explains that at the end of the parable.

Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

Jesus says to those who will hear and receive his words, to them more will be given. But to those who reject and refuse to receive his words, to them even what was given them shall be taken away.

So, the fault is with the hearer. They could receive Jesus's words if they so chose to, but they loved sin more than righteousness.

 

[OldRegular]

The elect were not always the elect in the temporal sense but were eternally based on foreknowledge. So all that are presently reprobate / lost in the temporal sense that will freely believe will then be elect so that is not a problem, we just need to accept that election is according to foreknowledge as the Bible tells us and get off this Crazy Calvinist Cruse away from what the word says.

You misunderstand what is meant by foreknowledge. It has nothing to do that God elects those HE knows will believe.

 

[OldRegular]

The difference was the hearer, and Jesus explains that at the end of the parable.

I have agreed that the difference was in the hearer. I have previously said that he was one that GOD had chosen to salvation in Jesus Christ. He was then regenerated and given the faith to respond to the Gospel.

 

[Benefactor]

The elect were not always the elect in the temporal sense but were eternally based on foreknowledge. So all that are presently reprobate / lost in the temporal sense that will freely believe will then be elect so that is not a problem, we just need to accept that election is according to foreknowledge as the Bible tells us and get off this Crazy Calvinist Cruse away from what the word says.

I read the passage that Peter wrote, elect according to foreknowledge. I ask myself "How are Christians elected? And I answered "according to foreknowledge.

 

[OldRegular]

I read the passage that Peter wrote, elect according to foreknowledge. I ask myself "How are Christians elected? And I answered "according to foreknowledge.

You still don't understand foreknowledge as it relates to election.