Where does believing faith come from part 2

[Winman]

Sorry but your response is not valid. Repentance and faith may be sides of the same coin but they are different sides not the same! Also no scripture showing that the gift of the Holy Spirit happens at justification!

Repentence and faith are not the same thing. The word repent must always be understood within the context where it is used. A few examples;

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Here John the Baptist saw the Pharisees and Sadducees come to be baptized. And he told them to "bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance".

Now, what is he saying they should repent of? It is explained in the very next verse. He tells them that they must turn or repent of the belief that simply being a physical descendent of Abraham will save them. Many Jews believed they were saved simply because they were Jews, the chosen people of God.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So, in this passage repentence does apply to faith, but it is the object of faith that is the matter at hand. They needed to turn from the belief that they were saved simply by being Jews, and realize that they had to trust on Christ for salvation.

Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

In this passage, these people thought that because misfortune had happened to these people, that this was proof that they were out of favor with God. This was also the accusation made against Job by his friends. They concluded that because many bad things had happened to Job, that therefore he must be a terrible sinner and God was punishing him

But Jesus said they need to turn or repent from this belief. They needed to realize that they too were sinners in peril of perishing in hell.

So, while the word repentence itself does not mean faith, it is often used in association with faith. When a person believes the wrong thing, or places their faith in the wrong object, they need to repent or turn from this.

So, it is all dependent upon the context. When God repented he had made man, it is not speaking of faith or even sin. It is just saying that God was sorry he had made man and decided to destroy those who were very evil.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

So, in Gen 6:6 repent does not apply to faith or belief whatsoever. But in Mark 1:15 it does.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

[webdog]

Sorry but your response is not valid. Repentance and faith may be sides of the same coin but they are different sides not the same! Also no scripture showing that the gift of the Holy Spirit happens at justification!

Completely valid, as they go hand in hand. Naturally, when one turns to Christ for salvation they are turning away from self. You disagree with that premise?

I thought you would already know the Scripture about when a person receives the Holy Spirit, but here you go...

1 Cor. 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

When we are in Christ, we are in this "one body"

Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Clearly shows that belonging to Christ and having the Spirit go hand in hand. Bonus...notice when the spirit is alive...BECAUSE of righteousness, which only occurs through faith in Christ. That negates pre-faith regeneration in itself.

Eph. 1:13-14 Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation of all those WHO BELIEVE.

Is that enough?

 

[OldRegular]

Webdog

Still no scripture showing that the gift of the Holy Spirit happens at justification!

 

[webdog]

Webdog

Still no scripture showing that the gift of the Holy Spirit happens at justification!

...then you need to make an appointment with your local optometrist.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Webdog

Still no scripture showing that the gift of the Holy Spirit happens at justification!

non response from webdog
...then you need to make an appointment with your local optometrist.

Couldn't find one could you!:tongue3:

 

[webdog]

Couldn't find one could you!:tongue3:

I gave you three, open your eyes

 

[Dr. Bob]

I think some see the word "believe" and think that is all there is to salvation (by their false definition, you automatically repent or turn to God by believing so it is a confusing/extraneous word).

Of course demons believe but are not regenerated.

So recognize the fact that our "being saved" or "born again" includes a number of facets that are totally independent. Believe is just one part of the "package" we call "salvation"

God the Father chooses Bob (why, I'll never know except to show His grace)

God the Son actually atones/covers Bob's sin particularly. Kewl.

God gives His Word and His holy Spirit to convict and convince Bob of sin, righteousness and judgment

God the holy Spirit inwardly, secretly regenerates Bob, giving him faith and repentance and turning his incapable-of-salvation heart of stone into an alive heart

God's gift of repentance allows Bob (for the first time) to truly mourn over his sin and turn to His Father

God's gift of faith allows Bob to believe the Gospel (he already knew the Law and wages of his sinfulness)

God opens Bob's heart and eyes and mind.

What did Bob do? Well, the process is complete but Bob REACTS to the salvation that is 100% the work of God and 0% the work of Bob.

Bob cries out for God's grace, calling on the name of the Lord.

Now a verse might say if you "call" and you're saved, but not mention "believe". Another might say "believe" and you're saved, but not mention "repent". Another might say xy but not z.

Get the pix? We have to PUT IT ALL TOGETHER to truly understand our soul's salvation.

But it all is the work of God. Nick had no understanding of this and Jesus had to paint a picture of it (John 3). But the bottom line was the INWARD work and change done only by the holy Spirit on the elect.

We need to get our eyes off of the VISIBLE and on the INVISIBLE and give praise to the glory of His grace.

 

[OldRegular]

I think some see the word "believe" and think that is all there is to salvation (by their false definition, you automatically repent or turn to God by believing so it is a confusing/extraneous word).

Of course demons believe but are not regenerated.

So recognize the fact that our "being saved" or "born again" includes a number of facets that are totally independent. Believe is just one part of the "package" we call "salvation"

God the Father chooses Bob (why, I'll never know except to show His grace)

God the Son actually atones/covers Bob's sin particularly. Kewl.

God gives His Word and His holy Spirit to convict and convince Bob of sin, righteousness and judgment

God the holy Spirit inwardly, secretly regenerates Bob, giving him faith and repentance and turning his incapable-of-salvation heart of stone into an alive heart

God's gift of repentance allows Bob (for the first time) to truly mourn over his sin and turn to His Father

God's gift of faith allows Bob to believe the Gospel (he already knew the Law and wages of his sinfulness)

God opens Bob's heart and eyes and mind.

What did Bob do? Well, the process is complete but Bob REACTS to the salvation that is 100% the work of God and 0% the work of Bob.

Bob cries out for God's grace, calling on the name of the Lord.

Now a verse might say if you "call" and you're saved, but not mention "believe". Another might say "believe" and you're saved, but not mention "repent". Another might say xy but not z.

Get the pix? We have to PUT IT ALL TOGETHER to truly understand our soul's salvation.

But it all is the work of God. Nick had no understanding of this and Jesus had to paint a picture of it (John 3). But the bottom line was the INWARD work and change done only by the holy Spirit on the elect.

We need to get our eyes off of the VISIBLE and on the INVISIBLE and give praise to the glory of His grace.

Thanks Dr. Bob.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

We need to get our eyes off of the VISIBLE and on the INVISIBLE and give praise to the glory of His grace.

...not at the expense of getting the INVISIBLE wrong, as is evident by your entire post.

 

[Amy.G]

I think some see the word "believe" and think that is all there is to salvation

Well, what does God's word say?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Here it says that first you hear (understand) the truth, then you believe and then the Holy Spirit seals you. That is salvation plain and simple.

Strongs definition for "believe" in Eph 1:13:

G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.


This is NOT what the demons do. This is what Calvinists call "saving faith".

I guess your mastery of the Greek let you down on that one. :laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

Well, what does God's word say?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Here it says that first you hear (understand) the truth, then you believe and then the Holy Spirit seals you. That is salvation plain and simple.

Strongs definition for "believe" in Eph 1:13:

G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.


This is NOT what the demons do. This is what Calvinists call "saving faith".

I guess your mastery of the Greek let you down on that one. :laugh:

James 2:19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

4100.
πιστεύω
pisteuo
pist-yoo'-o;
from 4102;

Strong's
to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):-- believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Thayer's
KJV - believe 239, commit unto 4, commit to (one's) trust 1, be committed unto 1, be put in trust with 1, be commit to one's trust 1, believer 1; 248

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing

 

[The Archangel]

Well, what does God's word say?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Here it says that first you hear (understand) the truth, then you believe and then the Holy Spirit seals you. That is salvation plain and simple.

Strongs definition for "believe" in Eph 1:13:

G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.


This is NOT what the demons do. This is what Calvinists call "saving faith".

I guess your mastery of the Greek let you down on that one. :laugh:

Amy,

At the risk of becoming the "Greek Police" I would like to point out to you an error in your above post--and it is a challenge of grammar, not necessarily vocabulary.

The word "Believed" in Ephesians 1:13 is not a verb, it is a participle. So, the meaning is slightly different than the verb form.

Also, in Greek the participles are what accomplish the action of the main verb. So, Ephesians 1:13 basically says "In Him also you (all) were sealed." How was that accomplished? Through the participles "having heard" and "having believed."

The version you posted has "[trusted]" and that is simply not in the original text, and as far as I can see, it isn't even implied. The point of that verse is that we, as Christians, were sealed with the Holy Spirit. It says nothing of a progression.

It would be possible, for the purposes of clarification, to translate the verse (and I'm abbreviating here) this way: Having heard...and believed...you (all) were sealed...

Now, of course, as a Calvinist, contrary to popular opinion, I absolutely affirm the necessity to hear the gospel and believe in it. The challenge with your understanding (and Winman's) of this verse is that it elevates participles to the status of verbs (which is a common challenge reading an English translation). The grammar of the Greek language won't allow for that.

Many Blessings to you!

The Archangel

 

[Dr. Bob]

I'd just encourage Amy to read all of Ephesians 1 and see the entire "package" we glibly call "salvation".

She would not miss the obvious and take ludicrous shots at the Greek!!