Not sure however I do know of some Calvinists/Reformed on the BB who hold this very view. Pastor Larry is one of them and I 'think' TCGreek was coming around to this view as well. There are other well known Cals/Reformed who hold this view such as Millard Erickson.
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Where does believing faith come from part 3
- Thread starter Benefactor
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Just for clarity, I would say that the position is that regeneration "logically" precedes faith/justification. Although salvation is often a synonym for justification, "salvation proper" encompasses the whole package: regeneration, faith, justification, sanctification, glorification.
Of course, I could also be misunderstanding it as well.
Technically neither have I. The issue of regeneration was one of the predominant reasons for me not going into Reformed Theology when I was looking at and studying it. I understand the Cals/Reformed's argument for it, I just don't agree that is what scripture is saying 'about it'.
Yes, you are correct - I had 'salvation' on my mind but it should be 'faith'. I will go back and correct it. Thank you.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Amy,
Here is a re-post of my answer before. This is to illustrate why I don't think this can present an "Order" of salvation, as such.
Quoted:
The word "Believed" in Ephesians 1:13 is not a verb, it is a participle. So, the meaning is slightly different than the verb form.
Also, in Greek the participles are what accomplish the action of the main verb. So, Ephesians 1:13 basically says "In Him also you (all) were sealed." How was that accomplished? Through the participles "having heard" and "having believed."
The version you posted has "[trusted]" and that is simply not in the original text, and as far as I can see, it isn't even implied. The point of that verse is that we, as Christians, were sealed with the Holy Spirit. It says nothing of a progression.
It would be possible, for the purposes of clarification, to translate the verse (and I'm abbreviating here) this way: Having heard...and believed...you (all) were sealed...
Now, of course, as a Calvinist, contrary to popular opinion, I absolutely affirm the necessity to hear the gospel and believe in it. The challenge with your understanding (and Winman's) of this verse is that it elevates participles to the status of verbs (which is a common challenge reading an English translation). The grammar of the Greek language won't allow for that.
End Quoted
Also, as I mentioned to Benefactor, the participles in Ephesians 1:13 are Aorist and Aorist participles always shows a simple event in the past, it does not a and cannot describe progress.
Also, so far as I can tell, every instance in the New Testament of the phrase "Born Again" is always in the passive (meaning the subject is acted upon, not doing the action himself or herself) with the exception of 1 Peter 1:3 where Peter clearly states that God caused us to be born again, so that is as good as a passive, in my opinion.
So to say that being born again is something we ourselves do is inconsistent, so far as I can tell, with the grammar of scripture.
Now, I thing being born again (or born from above in John 3) is what God does to us and we, then, must respond to Him in repentance and faith.
I hope that helps and I'll be happy to answer any other questions to help elaborate, especially because I may not have been very clear.
Blessings,
The Archangel
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
John 3:3- 8, KJV
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Man is regenerated, born again, through an act of the Holy Spirit with no action on the part of Man! In fact man does not have full understanding of what has happened. It is for this reason he is given the gift of faith.
Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6.To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Man is chosen and made accepted in the beloved with no action on the part of man!
Ephesians 2:1-10
1. And you (hath he quickened), who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Man, who is spiritually dead, is made spiritually alive, regenerated, born again, by the Holy Spirit with no action on the part of man. Man is then given the gift of faith through which he responds to the Gospel; repents, is pardoned, justified, sanctified, and in time glorified.
Titus 3:5, KJV
5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Man is saved by the washing of regeneration according to God's mercy with no action on the part of man.
Everyone on this Forum who believe that regeneration precedes faith will declare that faith is an essential part of salvation as I show above. However, Scripture teaches that the natural man, the unsaved man, cannot understand or receive the things of God:
1 Corinthians 2:14, KJV
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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I admit that I do not know Greek, but I do understand English. Regardless of whether "trust" is in the Greek, the order is the same in the most common translations.
I won't post them all here. Instead I'll give a LINK
Are you saying that the translators of all of these versions got it wrong?
It's very plain in each version. The order is clear. Hear, believe, be sealed.
Again, if you can offer a verse that says one is born again before he/she believes, I'll change my mind.
I think this is probably the closest you can get to thinking regeneration precedes faith, because you think that faith is the gift of God this verse is talking about. But the gift of God is salvation.
What is "ordained" in verse 10 is that Christians are to do good works. It doesn't mean that God ordained one to heaven and one to hell.
I agree Amy. :thumbs:
But it is virtually impossible to change the mind of a stick-in-the-mud Calvinist.
Benefactor
New Member
Arminians who are more in line with Wesley and Arminius would agree that the actual conversion, re-birth or born from above is the work of God, in fact Titus attributes it to the work of the Holy Spirit. I don't believe that anyone would disagree that "regeneration" means new birth and is correctly associated with John 3.
However the language of Luke 7:50 demonstrates that the woman actively is involved in her salvation. "sesooken" "saved" is indicative perfect active. She in the past (amount of time not an issue here) actively believe. In the past, from the time Jesus spoke, the woman actively in reality believed and that believing saved her, yet while this is true because that is what the text says it is also true that apart from the Grace of God and expressed in Titus 3:5 the actual miracle of new birth could not have happened. All the believing in the world will not save apart from God transforming the heart but there too God is not going to rebirth us until we, like the woman, actively in reality believe in Jesus. Both are true and one does not cross out the other.
Benefactor
New Member
Hebrews 11:1
Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is (1) the assurance of things hoped for, (2) the conviction of things not seen. Faith then is trust in something that cannot be seen, but is hoped for. What exactly is this that can't be seen, but hoped for? How is this understood in light of John 20:29 "Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." In this case some believed that saw Jesus and others that did not see Him. Faith then cannot be in the man Jesus per say, but in the message of what is offered, "hoped for" that the person, this case Jesus, can do or deliver. What good is an expression of faith in a man? If we say I have faith in a man and we know nothing of the man then there is nothing to believe in. Faith would be in a skill, or past record of performance or in a promise, something that gives hope. In the case with Jesus we know from Scripture, which we also take by faith as God's word, the things hoped for which are not seen, which are specifically expressed in God's word.
Also, one key word has far reaching implications as used in this verse, the word “things”. The definition given by the author of Hebrews does not seem to have a theological definition in mind but an accepted understanding of the definition of faith, one that would be normal and understood in the time in which it was written. The average reader would understand this kind of language as the accepted norm in its historical setting to convey the idea and understanding of faith in anything, in this case the "hope" of what is given by God in the then existing writings of Scripture.
The importance in understanding "faith" within Christianity has far reaching theological implications. Faith in simple terms is trust in something, but this simplicity is not so clear when it is spoken of in theological terms, especially when it is said to be a special gift given to man so that he will then be able to trust in Christ. This of course is the age long dispute between the belief systems of Calvinism and Arminianism.
Hebrews 11:1 clearly defines faith as that which is normally understood as trusting in something. It was not explained as some mystical or special infusion or gift for the purpose of trusting in Christ. Paul writes in Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. The recipients of the letters to the Hebrews and Romans would have understood it in the same manner, trust in something. Paul informs the Romans that in order for them to believe they must hear the gospel. Hearing the gospel gives the listener the information needed to make a decision.
Faith is presented in Scripture as always occurring first followed by salvation (born from above / regeneration). This is clearly seen in Luke 7:50 'And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." .
Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is (1) the assurance of things hoped for, (2) the conviction of things not seen. Faith then is trust in something that cannot be seen, but is hoped for. What exactly is this that can't be seen, but hoped for? How is this understood in light of John 20:29 "Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." In this case some believed that saw Jesus and others that did not see Him. Faith then cannot be in the man Jesus per say, but in the message of what is offered, "hoped for" that the person, this case Jesus, can do or deliver. What good is an expression of faith in a man? If we say I have faith in a man and we know nothing of the man then there is nothing to believe in. Faith would be in a skill, or past record of performance or in a promise, something that gives hope. In the case with Jesus we know from Scripture, which we also take by faith as God's word, the things hoped for which are not seen, which are specifically expressed in God's word.
Also, one key word has far reaching implications as used in this verse, the word “things”. The definition given by the author of Hebrews does not seem to have a theological definition in mind but an accepted understanding of the definition of faith, one that would be normal and understood in the time in which it was written. The average reader would understand this kind of language as the accepted norm in its historical setting to convey the idea and understanding of faith in anything, in this case the "hope" of what is given by God in the then existing writings of Scripture.
The importance in understanding "faith" within Christianity has far reaching theological implications. Faith in simple terms is trust in something, but this simplicity is not so clear when it is spoken of in theological terms, especially when it is said to be a special gift given to man so that he will then be able to trust in Christ. This of course is the age long dispute between the belief systems of Calvinism and Arminianism.
Hebrews 11:1 clearly defines faith as that which is normally understood as trusting in something. It was not explained as some mystical or special infusion or gift for the purpose of trusting in Christ. Paul writes in Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. The recipients of the letters to the Hebrews and Romans would have understood it in the same manner, trust in something. Paul informs the Romans that in order for them to believe they must hear the gospel. Hearing the gospel gives the listener the information needed to make a decision.
Faith is presented in Scripture as always occurring first followed by salvation (born from above / regeneration). This is clearly seen in Luke 7:50 'And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." .
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Amy,
Great to hear from you. Thanks for the link, I enjoyed reading all the translations.
No, I don't think they got it wrong. The challenge is a translation, not a translator issue. Some of the challenges related to Greek (and Hebrew and many other languages) is that some of the nuance of the original is lost when it comes over to English. But, this is a common translation issue.
Participles in Greek and participles in English are not easily related. It is easy to read this in English and imply an order--that is a very natural English reading and you are by no means alone in your reading. But the original is not English and so to get the full nuance, it is important to go to the original--Greek.
Both participles (having heard and having believed) are Aorist which typically presents a summary of an action. So, some time in the past the subject (the persons to whom Paul was writing) heard and believed. As a result of their hearing and believing they were sealed. The Greek here is not conveying progression of time or progression of anything.
In short, having heard and having believed are causes of being sealed but the participles, in and of themselves, do not express progression.
Again, this is a very technical and intricate discussion. My issue is not the order of salvation you have proposed--I firmly believe one has to hear and believe in order to be saved. My issue is that Paul is not intending to put forward any order of salvation in this verse.
Many Blessings,
The Archangel
Since grace is feminine, saved is masculine, faith is feminine, and that is neuter, I say that that refers to the entire clause. "by grace are ye saved through faith" is the gift of God. The grace, the salvation, and the faith are all part of the gift.
The grammar in the Greek does not say that this is a prescriptive "wish" of God, but rather that this is the effectual result.
We are God's workmanship, His product, His fashioning. We are created in Christ Jesus unto the good works that God before ordained or "fit in advance" or "prepared beforehand." That we should walk in them is a "hina clause." The word that is the word hina in the Greek, which indicates a purpose or a result. We should walk is not saying "we ought to walk." The we should walk is one word in the Greek and is an aorist active subjunctive.
As being God's workmanship, He before ordained the good works by His creation of us in Christ Jesus with the result that we would walk in them.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No Amy! Ephesians 2:4,5 is much clearer that man who is dead in trespasses is made spiritually alive.
Ephesians 2:4, 5
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]
If we look at a modern translation of this passage we see that quickened means make alive.
Ephesians 2:4,5 NASB
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Also the words of Jesus Christ in John 3 clearly show that the new birth or regeneration is solely the act of the Holy Spirit.
John 3:3- 8, KJV
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
There was a time in my Christian life when I believed that faith was a prerequisite to regeneration. However, in time I came to realize that it was God who changed me and gave me the faith and desire to believe. Perhaps it was because as I came to know more about God I realized how far my sinful nature had separated me from God.
Just for clarification - I'm not Amy :laugh: but I would like to comment here if I may?
But also if I may brother let me begin with one of you concluding remarks:
I think there is a diconnect here. No one that I know, and I betting that Amy isn't either, stating that we make ourselves born-again. Especially in light of the fact we hold to born-again/regeneration being very the act of salvation.
We agree that it is passive and that without question. God saves us = God regenerates us /in the Non-Cal view.
This is true, it is slightly different.
This is true as well. And though the verse itself is not denoting specifcally an order, an order is observed as you just showed. We are sealed(3) - how - having heard (3) and believed (2). This is declaring a fact of events, there is no question here, and it must be understood the intent of the passage is not to give an order specifcially, however a logical order (in this verse) is evident from the passage in question as to when something transpired. The result is being seal which comes after believing, which can only come after hearing.
While it is true 'trusted is added, it is added to clarify the intent and continuity of the passage in question. Much like in 1 Cor 14 where 'unknown' is added. I personally do see the implication here since it refers to "you 'also'" having heard and believed, were sealed. The implication of 'you also' regards what they have done in likeness to expressed statement of how one is sealed - trusted/believed. I think believed would have been redundant.
That is a personal observation but in reality it doesn't change anything if it is added in or left out.
True but adding the first part as well - You also... Having heard..and believed.. you (all) were sealed...
Editted.. I don't think the passage is stating that having been sealed one is now able to hear and believe as context doesn't seem to support this. It seems presumable if not logical to state that the sealing is a completed act due to hearing and believing.
I don't think this is 'necessarily' true. The participle might not specifically be the main action but as you stated they do speak to what accomplished the action of the main verb. And their points, or at least Amy's is that 'you' heard and believed before you sealed.
Its intent is not to show progress yet a logical progression 'can', at times, be observed depending on how the sentence is set forth. Eph 1:13 does appear to show a logical progression but it should not be used to say This is what happens and all that does in fact happen. IOW - This is NOT a good place to show a specific order but can be used to illistrate 3 basic parts to the order.
Yes, we Most All agree with you here. Our disagrement is what 'born-again' means or entails.
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Well guys, I guess I'm just out of my league here.
I respect anyone who has studied the Greek language. However, if I cannot trust my Bible that has been translated into English, I might as well throw all my Bibles (and I have a lot :laugh into the trash and spend the next 10 years studying Greek.
We will continue to disagree on this subject and I don't want to alienate any of you by arguing things that do not affect our salvation.
I believe that God is sovereign. But I believe, and I think scripture bears it out, that God created us with the ability to believe Him or not since we are created in His image. Granted that image is marred because of the fall, but we still bear the image of our Father. We have the ability to think and reason and choose right or wrong. Because of this ability, God holds us responsible for believing Him or not.
There are mountains of scripture that clearly say that God has revealed Himself to all men and all men have the choice to respond to God or reject Him. That is how I read scripture.
Now, I must go to :sleep: as I have to be all bright eyed and bushy tailed for my yearly physical tomorrow morning. YUCK!!
:wavey:
I respect anyone who has studied the Greek language. However, if I cannot trust my Bible that has been translated into English, I might as well throw all my Bibles (and I have a lot :laugh
into the trash and spend the next 10 years studying Greek. We will continue to disagree on this subject and I don't want to alienate any of you by arguing things that do not affect our salvation.
I believe that God is sovereign. But I believe, and I think scripture bears it out, that God created us with the ability to believe Him or not since we are created in His image. Granted that image is marred because of the fall, but we still bear the image of our Father. We have the ability to think and reason and choose right or wrong. Because of this ability, God holds us responsible for believing Him or not.
There are mountains of scripture that clearly say that God has revealed Himself to all men and all men have the choice to respond to God or reject Him. That is how I read scripture.
Now, I must go to :sleep: as I have to be all bright eyed and bushy tailed for my yearly physical tomorrow morning. YUCK!!
:wavey:
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
But you would have us think that faith is something we all possess (like a kidney or a lung) and as long as you have this "thing" you'll be saved. But, that's not what is going on in Luke 7:50
The entire context shows that this woman came to Christ because she was in need of forgiveness.
Notice v. 37--she heard that Jesus was in town and sought Him out. She also realized she was a sinner--so she new her need of forgiveness. The following parable is talking about her (for the benefit of the Pharisee).
But the crux of the issue is not her "faith" but the person in whom that faith was placed--it was placed in Christ.
The "order" of things is quite, dare I say, reformed: She realized her need (which can only be because of the work of the Holy Spirit), she sought out Christ to meet her need, and Christ forgave her--and she was saved.
It is not "faith" the thing that saves, otherwise she could have gone to "Fred, the village healer." No, it is faith in Christ that saved her--as it is with all of us. She obviously knew who to go to and went to the right person. But her actions in verse 50 did not occur in a vacuum.
Jesus, by this time, was well-known in the region and His message had been preached already, so it is the case she knew His preaching and had been convicted by it, as evidenced by her weeping.
The faith she exercised was as a result of 1. Knowing her status as a sinner, 2. Hearing who Jesus was and what He could do, and 3. Seeking Him out.
So, the exercise of faith was not the cause of the situation, rather the exercise of her faith was the response to the situation. So, the text is showing that she has an active faith--that much is true--but the faith is active in response to something Christ has already done, it is not the initiator of Christ's actions.
Again, context is king.
Blessings,
The Archangel
Benefactor
New Member
Where we differ and where the scripture disagrees with your view is that "saved" follows faith and we all know that "saved" is the Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing / new birth and as such it follows faith and therefore it cannot be first but second.
It is true that one hears first, is convicted and repents then believes but this is not regeneration because to make this regeneration contradicts the order of the statement by Jesus and that of Paul in Titus 3:5.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Allan (not Amy),
I enjoyed your post as always. Let me comment on one thing:
I do not think being sealed one is now able to hear and believe. If that's what I was conveying, it was not my intention. I think hearing and believing do come first and you're right--the reverse is not supported by the grammar.
Also, I think you're right about the issue of what being born again means. I think it is not being "saved" but being regenerated (which will inevitably lead to salvation). Again, that is probably the big issue between the reformed and non-reformed camps.
Blessings,
The Archangel
I enjoyed your post as always. Let me comment on one thing:
I do not think being sealed one is now able to hear and believe. If that's what I was conveying, it was not my intention. I think hearing and believing do come first and you're right--the reverse is not supported by the grammar.
Also, I think you're right about the issue of what being born again means. I think it is not being "saved" but being regenerated (which will inevitably lead to salvation). Again, that is probably the big issue between the reformed and non-reformed camps.
Blessings,
The Archangel
With the above, I have no issue and agree whole heartedly.
This is what the Greek is technically stating.
The 'logical' aspects I spoke of are brought to the text via observation from the text and of a previously understood thought or view that seems to have a correllation to one another.
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