Drinking Question......

[webdog]

No I have not (turned it into a Red Herring) my point is that in the world we live today, to become a drinker will almost certainly lead to intoxication a minimum of at least once.

You are starting with a false presupposition and going from there

For something that is not necessary to do, but instead is rather for pleasure why should a mature Christian support it.

Because God supports it and that puts me in good company. You could argue your case about just about anything in life "pleasurable" and not necessary to live, btw.

 

[Steven2006]

. And I don't think I have many Christian friends that get drunk on any regular basis,

I know many also, that isn't my point.

I'm 45 years old. The first time I voluntarily* consumed alcohol was when I was 33. I had my first glass of wine because the Spirit convicted me about it when offered a glass at a get-together with extended family.

.

You are an exception (and commendable), and if most people waited until they were mature and in their mid thirties before drinking such as you have I wouldn't have a point.

Sadly this is not the case and most people start out much too young and aren't mature. And most people that drink have at some point been intoxicated. That being the case, I think it it best that mature Christians look at the big picture, give up the little pleasure they get from a occasional drink, and offer the safest advise that it best to not drink.

You see my argument is not that it is a sin, I have stated earlier I don't believe it is a sin to enjoy a cold beer on a hot day. But If I am going to be a stumbling block to even one, the enjoyment I get (and I do enjoy a nice wine or a cold beer) pales in comparison.

 

[Amy.G]

I didn't say total control, just control. You don't lose control after a glass of wine or two, or even while being "buzzed".

Probably not falling down drunk, but even one glass of wine can loosen the tongue and you could end up saying something you will regret later. Especially for someone who has no tolerance for alcohol.

Isn't it better to just abstain? Why take any risk for something you don't need?

 

[ituttut]

No I have not (turned it into a Red Herring) my point is that in the world we live today, to become a drinker will almost certainly lead to intoxication a minimum of at least once. For something that is not necessary to do, but instead is rather for pleasure why should a mature Christian support it.

If there is a Red Herring it would be your analogy of food and gluttony.

Steven, God gave us wine for a reason, and it was not just for pleasure. Why refuse this Gift?

We accept His gift of pleasure when we marry, so why do some refuse the gift of Wine, which represents the Blood of Jesus?

 

[Steven2006]

So your premise is that something pursued for pure pleasure that could have dangers or negative repercussions should be avoided.

That would exclude lots of things:

- eating dessert
- Thanksgiving feasts
- driving a motorcycle
- swimming at the beach
- mountain climbing (think scaling the side of a mountain)
- potlucks at church
- hunting
- skiing
- etc., etc., etc.

Your earlier post to me was impressive, very well thought out and reasonable. This one is not.

 

[webdog]

Your earlier post to me was impressive, very well thought out and reasonable. This one is not.

I disagree, he hit the nail on the head and did it better than I.

 

[webdog]

Probably not falling down drunk, but even one glass of wine can loosen the tongue and you could end up saying something you will regret later. Especially for someone who has no tolerance for alcohol.

As a fast talker coffee can do this for me.

Isn't it better to just abstain? Why take any risk for something you don't need?

First question: for some, of course. For the second question: see Baptist Believer's post to Steven.

 

[Steven2006]

You are starting with a false presupposition and going from there

So you honestly are telling us that you believe that most of the people that drink have never even once been intoxicated.

Because God supports it and that puts me in good company. You could argue your case about just about anything in life "pleasurable" and not necessary to live, btw.

Drinking wine was needed when the bible was written, it is not now. So the question becomes is it wise, not to we have the liberty. I am far from the argue against pleasure type of person, you are twisting my argument. My only point about pleasure is that I think giving up that pleasure is small in comparison when viewing the common downside drinking often is for others.

 

[Steven2006]

I disagree, he hit the nail on the head and did it better than I.

OK then tell us specifically the dangers of sin that most people will find themselves in, from each of the things on this list.

Tell us specifically the dangers to family and lifestyle that are commonly associated with each of the things on this list.

- eating dessert
- Thanksgiving feasts
- driving a motorcycle
- swimming at the beach
- mountain climbing (think scaling the side of a mountain)
- potlucks at church
- hunting
- skiing

 

[ituttut]

Probably not falling down drunk, but even one glass of wine can loosen the tongue and you could end up saying something you will regret later. Especially for someone who has no tolerance for alcohol.

Isn't it better to just abstain? Why take any risk for something you don't need?

Amy, such statements or so true for those that see it in that light, but evidently some need, or want what God gave to us to enjoy.

God gives, but doesn't force. We don't have to if we don't to, but we can if we want to. So once again I stand behind your logic here for yourself.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Isn't it better to just abstain? Why take any risk for something you don't need?

The major reasons I consume alcohol in moderation:

(1) To receive hospitality

• I do not have trouble with alcohol, so I cannot honestly decline on that basis
• I do not believe the Bible teaches abstinence from alcoholic beverages, so I can't make that claim
• Telling others that I won't drink because it might be a negative influence on others comes across as rather judgmental, and furthermore, I don't think it actually applies in most situations, however, I will not consume alcohol in the presence of someone who has had an alcohol problem
• I will have a drink when it serves to build a bond of fellowship and will glorify Christ
• To take advantage of social opportunities with coworkers so I can invest in their lives - I usually attend all of the Happy Hours (usually once a month) with my group from work. Sometimes I have a glass of wine, sometimes not. In any case, I am getting to know people outside of the office environment which has led to much deeper conversations about spiritual matters

(2) To provide a positive example of moderation

• In a culture where there are so many people who do not know how to live a life of moderation, Christians are called to be salt and light
• Just as someone who is over-indulging can be a negative influence on another, a person who is temperate can be a positive influence
• To demonstrate that alcohol is not a problem, but instead, a person's relation to it is the problem.

(3) To break the legalistic stereotypes of Christians in my region

• Many people see a huge disconnect with the Jesus of the Bible (who drank wine and spent time with "sinners") and the Christians they know who forbid alcohol (and many other things) and will only spend time with "sinners" for the express purpose of "arms-length" evangelism. Instead of investing in the lives of "sinners", many Christians dispense tracts and tightly-scripted dialogues modeled on contemporary sales techniques.

(4) For its health benefits

• Alcohol thins the blood and promotes good circulation

(5) For pleasure

• A good glass of wine complements a nice meal

 

[Baptist Believer]

Tell us specifically the dangers to family and lifestyle that are commonly associated with each of the things on this list.

eating dessert - consumption of excess calories which can lead to obesity if one gets addicted to the sugar rush. FYI, lots of people are addicted to sugar in the U.S., and desserts are not necessary at all.

Thanksgiving feasts - a feast is a celebration where a group of people indulge themselves in larger quantities of food than are needed for sustenance. These feasts can lead to a pattern of overeating in the long term, as well as cause people to get very sleepy while driving home from the massive sugar crash while the body tries to regulate blood sugar after the bulk of the simple calories are consumed. Feasts are not necessary.

driving a motorcycle - driving a motorcycle is inherently dangerous because the bike only has stability when in motion under certain circumstances. Many, many people are seriously injured or killed riding motorcycles each year. Motorcycles are not necessary.

swimming at the beach - swimming at the beach has more inherent dangers than swimming in a public pool or not swimming at all. In addition to the many dangers lurking in the water, the wave action and currents can move people out to sea or down the coast with little warning. (I grew up swimming on the Texas beach in the Gulf of Mexico and can tell you from personal experience that this happens all the time. If you're not careful, you can get pulled out too far to swim back and drown from exhaustion. I had a few close calls as a teenager. And if you've even gotten tangled up with a Portuguese Man-of-War, you know that there are all kinds of dangers in the water. Lots of people drown in the ocean every year. It is not necessary.

mountain climbing (think scaling the side of a mountain) - This is inherently dangerous due to the heights and skills required. It is not necessary.

potlucks at church - see the notes on Thanksgiving above

hunting - I have known people who have been shot or killed while hunting. You can buy meat at the grocery store. It is not necessary.

skiing - I've known a lot of people who have been injured skiing or snowboarding... One friend even broke his spine and spent months in the hospital. It is not necessary.

 

[Steven2006]

eating dessert - consumption of excess calories which can lead to obesity if one gets addicted to the sugar rush. FYI, lots of people are addicted to sugar in the U.S., and desserts are not necessary at all.

Thanksgiving feasts - a feast is a celebration where a group of people indulge themselves in larger quantities of food than are needed for sustenance. These feasts can lead to a pattern of overeating in the long term, as well as cause people to get very sleepy while driving home from the massive sugar crash while the body tries to regulate blood sugar after the bulk of the simple calories are consumed. Feasts are not necessary.

driving a motorcycle - driving a motorcycle is inherently dangerous because the bike only has stability when in motion under certain circumstances. Many, many people are seriously injured or killed riding motorcycles each year. Motorcycles are not necessary.

swimming at the beach - swimming at the beach has more inherent dangers than swimming in a public pool or not swimming at all. In addition to the many dangers lurking in the water, the wave action and currents can move people out to sea or down the coast with little warning. (I grew up swimming on the Texas beach in the Gulf of Mexico and can tell you from personal experience that this happens all the time. If you're not careful, you can get pulled out too far to swim back and drown from exhaustion. I had a few close calls as a teenager. And if you've even gotten tangled up with a Portuguese Man-of-War, you know that there are all kinds of dangers in the water. Lots of people drown in the ocean every year. It is not necessary.

mountain climbing (think scaling the side of a mountain) - This is inherently dangerous due to the heights and skills required. It is not necessary.

potlucks at church - see the notes on Thanksgiving above

hunting - I have known people who have been shot or killed while hunting. You can buy meat at the grocery store. It is not necessary.

skiing - I've known a lot of people who have been injured skiing or snowboarding... One friend even broke his spine and spent months in the hospital. It is not necessary.

You conveniently left out and didn't answer the first question.

"OK then tell us specifically the dangers of sin that most people will find themselves in, from each of the things on this list."

And you see the follow up question was in relation to the first question.
The dangers to family and lifestyle of the many that fall into the sinful gripe of having a problem with drinking.

To equate a person breaking a leg skiing, or even the sad event of an accidental death while driving a motorcycle, is apples and oranges. I am speaking of the sin that so often occurs with so many people that drink, not the physical risks you are refuting with.

 

[freeatlast]

The major reasons I consume alcohol in moderation:

(1) To receive hospitality

• I do not have trouble with alcohol, so I cannot honestly decline on that basis
• I do not believe the Bible teaches abstinence from alcoholic beverages, so I can't make that claim
• Telling others that I won't drink because it might be a negative influence on others comes across as rather judgmental, and furthermore, I don't think it actually applies in most situations, however, I will not consume alcohol in the presence of someone who has had an alcohol problem
• I will have a drink when it serves to build a bond of fellowship and will glorify Christ
• To take advantage of social opportunities with coworkers so I can invest in their lives - I usually attend all of the Happy Hours (usually once a month) with my group from work. Sometimes I have a glass of wine, sometimes not. In any case, I am getting to know people outside of the office environment which has led to much deeper conversations about spiritual matters

(2) To provide a positive example of moderation

• In a culture where there are so many people who do not know how to live a life of moderation, Christians are called to be salt and light
• Just as someone who is over-indulging can be a negative influence on another, a person who is temperate can be a positive influence
• To demonstrate that alcohol is not a problem, but instead, a person's relation to it is the problem.

(3) To break the legalistic stereotypes of Christians in my region

• Many people see a huge disconnect with the Jesus of the Bible (who drank wine and spent time with "sinners") and the Christians they know who forbid alcohol (and many other things) and will only spend time with "sinners" for the express purpose of "arms-length" evangelism. Instead of investing in the lives of "sinners", many Christians dispense tracts and tightly-scripted dialogues modeled on contemporary sales techniques.

(4) For its health benefits

• Alcohol thins the blood and promotes good circulation

(5) For pleasure

• A good glass of wine complements a nice meal

Well it sounds like you are just one big old sacrafice for the Lord. :laugh:

 

[Baptist Believer]

You conveniently left out and didn't answer the first question.

Not really.

Doing things that may negatively affect your health and livelihood is certainly detrimental to one's family and lifestyle.

And you see the follow up question was in relation to the first question.
The dangers to family and lifestyle of the many that fall into the sinful gripe of having a problem with drinking.

People get all kinds of additions, whether they be sugar additions, overeating, adrenaline additions, etc., that undermine the health and well-being of families.

To equate a person breaking a leg skiing, or even the sad event of an accidental death while driving a motorcycle, is apples and oranges. I am speaking of the sin that so often occurs with so many people that drink, not the physical risks you are refuting with.

I was originally responding to the allegation that one should avoid pleasurable things that might be dangerous just because they are unnecessary. You have shifted the question to the effects of addiction upon a family. While this still applies, it is less relevant to your new line of argument.

Addiction is always wrong... but then again, I've never supported addiction.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Well it sounds like you are just one big old sacrafice for the Lord. :laugh:

Your tone comes across as sarcastic, but I'm going to assume the best of you and take that as a reference to Romans 12:1-2.

So, yes. That's what I'm striving to do.

 

[freeatlast]

Your tone comes across as sarcastic, but I'm going to assume the best of you and take that as a reference to Romans 12:1-2.

So, yes. That's what I'm striving to do.

I am sure that the Lord is happy with any sacrifice, however this raises a question. In Cal. marijuana is about to be legalized. If it is should those Christians who are sacrificial at heart sacrifice themselves and take a few hits off a joint so as to socialize with the lost with the expectation of witnessing based on Romans 12:1-2 of course?

 

[saturneptune]

I am sure that the Lord is happy with any sacrifice, however this raises a question. In Cal. marijuana is about to be legalized. If it is should those Christians who are sacrificial at heart sacrifice themselves and take a few hits off a joint so as to socialize with the lost with the expectation of witnessing based on Romans 12:1-2 of course?

I am wondering if that is your perpetual state.

 

[Amy.G]

The major reasons I consume alcohol in moderation:

(1) To receive hospitality

• I do not have trouble with alcohol, so I cannot honestly decline on that basis
• I do not believe the Bible teaches abstinence from alcoholic beverages, so I can't make that claim
• Telling others that I won't drink because it might be a negative influence on others comes across as rather judgmental, and furthermore, I don't think it actually applies in most situations, however, I will not consume alcohol in the presence of someone who has had an alcohol problem
• I will have a drink when it serves to build a bond of fellowship and will glorify Christ
• To take advantage of social opportunities with coworkers so I can invest in their lives - I usually attend all of the Happy Hours (usually once a month) with my group from work. Sometimes I have a glass of wine, sometimes not. In any case, I am getting to know people outside of the office environment which has led to much deeper conversations about spiritual matters

(2) To provide a positive example of moderation

• In a culture where there are so many people who do not know how to live a life of moderation, Christians are called to be salt and light
• Just as someone who is over-indulging can be a negative influence on another, a person who is temperate can be a positive influence
• To demonstrate that alcohol is not a problem, but instead, a person's relation to it is the problem.

(3) To break the legalistic stereotypes of Christians in my region

• Many people see a huge disconnect with the Jesus of the Bible (who drank wine and spent time with "sinners") and the Christians they know who forbid alcohol (and many other things) and will only spend time with "sinners" for the express purpose of "arms-length" evangelism. Instead of investing in the lives of "sinners", many Christians dispense tracts and tightly-scripted dialogues modeled on contemporary sales techniques.

(4) For its health benefits

• Alcohol thins the blood and promotes good circulation

(5) For pleasure

• A good glass of wine complements a nice meal

Proponents of marijuana claim these same things. Freeatlast brought up a good question. If mari jane becomes legal as alcohol is, would you partake to eliminate the "disconnect" the world feels from Christians and Christ?

 

[Baptist Believer]

I am sure that the Lord is happy with any sacrifice, however this raises a question. In Cal. marijuana is about to be legalized.

You're jumping the gun. Lots of people are against the legalization of marijuana in California, including many users.

Furthermore, the federal government will probably shut it down very quickly.

If it is should those Christians who are sacrificial at heart sacrifice themselves and take a few hits off a joint so as to socialize with the lost with the expectation of witnessing based on Romans 12:1-2 of course?

(1) No, because marijuana has immediate negative effects on the body. As I mentioned in a previous post, I've been around people smoking marijuana quite a bit, and the secondhand smoke always gives me a headache. However, I would sit with people who are smoking and talk to them about life issues as long as they are coherent.

(2) We don't have an biblical examples of Jesus or the early church partaking of such a thing, so there's no clear model for us to follow.

(3) Just because something may become legal doesn't mean it is appropriate. I would not smoke cigarettes simply to make a connection. However I would sit with someone at a smoke break and talk.