For Pete's sake, he's a 'new guy', it's his third post, he doesn't know who believes what on this site; he's showing his heart, he's true feelings and thoughts in this matter. Give him a break. A fine welcome you two give.
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The Elect --- Question 1
- Thread starter Crabtownboy
- Start date
For Pete's sake, he's a 'new guy', it's his third post, he doesn't know who believes what on this site; he's showing his heart, he's true feelings and thoughts in this matter. Give him a break. A fine welcome you two give.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Regeneration is the New Birth. That is what the passage from John 3:3-12 is about; regeneration, the New Birth. And not one word in that passage says anything about prior faith. In fact Jesus Christ tells Nicodemus in verse 12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? Before a person can understand heavenly things regeneration is required. That is exactly what the Apostle Paul states in 1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. The natural man is the unregenerate man.
Because you think it supports your erroneous beliefs!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 2:1-8, KJV
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:1-8, NASB
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Amy I have shown the passage from Ephesians in the KJV and NASB simply because the NASV uses "made alive" rather than "quickened".
Please notice verses 3 and 4:
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
When we were dead in our SINS GOD mades us alive. That is regeneration, the New Birth. Now a person who is physically dead can do nothing to change his state. Perhaps an intervening outside force can! A person who is spiritually dead can do nothing to change his state. We know that an outside intervening force, GOD, can make one who is spiritually dead spiritually alive.. Why does GOD do this? Because of His great love with which He loved us. Not for any other reason. Notice that nothing at all is said about prior faith. Regeneration has already occurred. The same truth is taught in John 3:3-8.
Now verse 5 states that we are saved by grace. Once regeneration has occurred the remaining events associated with salvation will necessarily follow. One who has been regenerated will respond with the God given faith to the Gospel, be forgiven of his sins, justified, adopted by God, brought into union with Jesus Christ, sanctified, persevere with the help of God, and eventually be glorified.
Look now at verse 8.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
What is the gift of God? You have already been regenerated, itself a gift of God. Now, as shown in verse 8, God gives the gift of Faith through which you are able to respond to the Gospel.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the Forum. You will find that we on this Forum are passionate about our beliefs, sometimes to the point of rudeness.
Like you: "I would rather place my salvation in God's hands and not upon what I did." I am afraid that if my salvation depended on what I did then it would not be in good hands and I too would have difficulty sleeping, and at my age be as mad as the "hatter". {I suspect some on this Forum will now accuse me of that.}
But salvation is entirely of God and we can rest safely in His Hands for as Jesus Christ told us: My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.[John 10:29]
Agreed! :wavey:
Those verses don't help you either. Did you miss "together WITH Christ"?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No I did not!:laugh::wavey::laugh::wavey:
Then you agree we are regenerated (made alive) together with Christ, not prior?
If man could loose his Salvation then what would be the point in ever believing?. Since there isn't one of us who no longer sins. Christ even said there is no man with out sin . If this is true and man could loose his Salvation when he wonders away from Christ to sin. There would be no point in even trying to be a Christian. There would be no point in further confessions of our sins. It would do no good because we will turn right around and sin again and again. Our spirit may agree with the Law but our flesh can't help it's self. The flesh is carnal and will be until it is also renewed.
Paul said there is nothing that can separate us from the Love of the Father. If true and I believe it is. Then a Christian will soon be over come by his own conscience over his sin and will confess. I know personally my conscience will not let me alone until I do. The Holy Spirit that dwells inside of me will not let it happen.
The man who wonders away and never returns was never God's to begin with.
MB
Paul said there is nothing that can separate us from the Love of the Father. If true and I believe it is. Then a Christian will soon be over come by his own conscience over his sin and will confess. I know personally my conscience will not let me alone until I do. The Holy Spirit that dwells inside of me will not let it happen.
The man who wonders away and never returns was never God's to begin with.
MB
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Since God, not man, is sovereign in Salvation we will be kept securely in Him.
Still waiting...
Then you agree we are regenerated (made alive) together with Christ, not prior?
If one adheres to the concept of eternal security, one generally does not believe in the possibility of losing one's salvation.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Webdog,
You have written, recently, to OldRegular about his use of Ephesians 2. Your statements were:
I'm not wishing to answer for OldRegular, but there are some things to be pointed out...
Your assertion that "Together with Christ" argues for regeneration concurrent with salvation is false. There are three Aorist verbs in that passage:
Further, the use of the Aorist states a simple past event--in this case it is obvious contextually that this is seen from God's point of view (God is the subject, found in v. 4) and God Himself is doing these things.
So the text is arguing this: Because of the finished work of Christ, God, in some sense, sees Christians as already being made alive, raised up, and seated with Christ.
Now, as you know, I am not suggesting this happens without repentance and belief in Christ. After all, Paul is addressing Christians and he is describing what happened to them.
There is nothing in this text that can be seen as specifically arguing for a concurrent regeneration/salvation.
What is more, your argument that it does, must extend to the other verbs. So, if you want to say that we are "made alive together with Christ" and argue that is concurrent regeneration/salvation, you must make the argument that we are concurrently "raised up together" and "seated together" also.
That argument--from the text itself--supports the reformed position much more than your position, although it is not necessarily a "slam-dunk."
Blessings,
The Archangel
You have written, recently, to OldRegular about his use of Ephesians 2. Your statements were:
Then you agree we are regenerated (made alive) together with Christ, not prior?
I'm not wishing to answer for OldRegular, but there are some things to be pointed out...
Your assertion that "Together with Christ" argues for regeneration concurrent with salvation is false. There are three Aorist verbs in that passage:
- Made us alive together
- Raised us up together
- Seated us together
Further, the use of the Aorist states a simple past event--in this case it is obvious contextually that this is seen from God's point of view (God is the subject, found in v. 4) and God Himself is doing these things.
So the text is arguing this: Because of the finished work of Christ, God, in some sense, sees Christians as already being made alive, raised up, and seated with Christ.
Now, as you know, I am not suggesting this happens without repentance and belief in Christ. After all, Paul is addressing Christians and he is describing what happened to them.
There is nothing in this text that can be seen as specifically arguing for a concurrent regeneration/salvation.
What is more, your argument that it does, must extend to the other verbs. So, if you want to say that we are "made alive together with Christ" and argue that is concurrent regeneration/salvation, you must make the argument that we are concurrently "raised up together" and "seated together" also.
That argument--from the text itself--supports the reformed position much more than your position, although it is not necessarily a "slam-dunk."
Blessings,
The Archangel
You have given your commentary on that recently, I believe. I have no problem with the aortist tense of the verbs, as I do not hold to a linear view of God. I do believe we are raised and seated with Christ as well, as that is what Scripture teaches. At any rate, prior to being in Christ, all three are an impossibility, and your interpretation would have us being seated with Christ and raised up together prior to faith, which the whole of Scripture does not support.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
This raises some issues, then.
To a certain extent I would agree. However, as noted earlier, this is Paul describing the "God's-Eye" point of view. So, it is as if God views us in some sense as seated with Christ.
As for the Aorist tenses...your view of God (linear or not) does not impact the meaning of the text or the tenses of the Greek. God sees these things as past events and that suggests these things are a certainty and God does them all.
But, what does "In Christ" mean?
Is there a time when we become in Christ? Or is it that we were in Christ as He did and accomplished His work of redemption?
That, I think, is the issue.
Blessings,
The Archangel
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Jump in with both feet and welcome!:thumbs:
No apology needed. Your statement seemed out of place to me, but I didn't look at how many posts you had made.
Welcome to the board.
Check your mail. Friend and welcome.