Then what do you do with the humanity of Christ? He was fully man as well. If he did not lay aside, that is choose not to exercise some of his divine attributes, there is no possible way that he could have suffered as a man, be tempted as a man, and as the Bible states: "tempted in all points such as we." You take away from the humanity of Christ when you state that Christ at all times knew all things. Christ chose not to exercise his divine attributes, just as he chose not to exercise his omnipotence on the way to cross by not calling the angels of heaven to come and rescue him from the torment of the cross.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Did Jesus Have Faith?
- Thread starter Tom Butler
- Start date
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; (first part) Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
I think I said in a previous post that the definite article the is before the word faith in the greek of Gal 3:14 which I think would be understood as the faith of Christ. When you think about it the only being that would ever need faith would be lets say that had been immortal but gave that up and became something lower that could die. Man was made mortal. I don't care how many parts you want to give him body, soul and spirit they were all mortal subject to corruption. I am not going to post all of it but read 1 Cor 15:44-50 Man was made mortal, earthy, natural, flesh and blood and so was the Word who became flesh. I asked before why the Christ would need the sure mercies of David?Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [now] no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Because the Word became flesh.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; (first part) Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
I think I said in a previous post that the definite article the is before the word faith in the greek of Gal 3:14 which I think would be understood as the faith of Christ. When you think about it the only being that would ever need faith would be lets say that had been immortal but gave that up and became something lower that could die. Man was made mortal. I don't care how many parts you want to give him body, soul and spirit they were all mortal subject to corruption. I am not going to post all of it but read 1 Cor 15:44-50 Man was made mortal, earthy, natural, flesh and blood and so was the Word who became flesh. I asked before why the Christ would need the sure mercies of David?Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [now] no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Because the Word became flesh.
Last edited by a moderator:
Tom Butler
New Member
Oh, I can understand Jesus' limiting the exercise of his omnipotence while on earth, in the same way he chose to be bound by time and space. But not exercising power is not the same thing as not having it. More problematic to me is his omniscience--that is, knowing something as the eternal God the Son, but not knowing the same thing as the Son of man.
Regarding his temptation, we've debated his peccability before. I have an opinion, but am willing to hear other arguments one way or the other. Where I am on the temptation is, as a human being, the temptation was real, and had he desired, he could have yielded. But as God, he would not act contrary to his nature. That's a whole 'nother subject, though.
The whole point of his temptation was a temptation of his faith. He was being tempted to put his faith in Satan rather than in the Father. Did Jesus have faith? Yes, as a man he had to. He was tempted to put his faith in Satan. He was tempted as we are. If he chose not to use his omnipotence at the cross and at other times in his life, why would we not limit that to his omniscience as well. As a man he must have limited his omniscience. It is clear that he knew the hearts of all men, as the Scriptures tell us. But that is at that point in time when he chose to use that divine attribute. Did he do that all the time? As a man I don't believe he did.
Marcia
Active Member
I do not think Jesus had faith in men; he knew men were evil! This is why he came. It seems contradictory to say Jesus had faith in men. I am getting a Rob Bell flashback here.
I do not see any evidence, including what has posted, that Jesus had faith in his fellow man.
I answered this before, though I know you were talking to Tom Butler. I do not think Jesus had to have faith in men to be fully human. Jesus exercised omniscience at points, of which we see many examples of in the Bible in quite a few places. I also agree with Tom's answer re Jesus and temptation. I don't think this has anything to do with Jesus having faith in men.
Marcia
Active Member
The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, who raised Jesus, as God did, and as Jesus raised himself. Putting these verses together is another evidence of the Trinity in the Bible.
I am not sure how to interpret Acts 2: 32, 33 but it seems tied into verses 38 and 39. Perhaps "promise" here is the assurance of, not that Jesus received the Holy Spirit, but the assurance that his death resulted in the gift of the Holy Spirit for those who believe on Him, based on the following verses.
I think we are getting off topic here. You could start another thread on this passage, or on the Holy Spirit or whatever.
Marcia
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh.
Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death.
Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.
Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared.
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. I could post more.
When the Word/LORD walked with Adam in the garden could he have died?
What about when he talked with Abraham ouside the tent?
What about when he wrestled with Jacob? You get the point.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; 1st part.
Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth; 1st part
Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: Acts 13:33 last 2/3 in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
The Word who was God and was with God was made flesh and died.
When did he die? How long was he dead? Why if he had the same status as the Word that was God and with God would he have to have had the promise? By the way that promise was made to Abraham and his seed
Christ see Gal 3. Why would God say I will give him the sure mercies of David
Because he was corruptible flesh. Acts 13:35-37
This has everything to do with the OP. Yes Jesus had Faith and as another poster said Jesus also is Faith. Also in Gal 3.
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh.
Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death.
Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.
Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared.
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. I could post more.
When the Word/LORD walked with Adam in the garden could he have died?
What about when he talked with Abraham ouside the tent?
What about when he wrestled with Jacob? You get the point.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; 1st part.
Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth; 1st part
Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: Acts 13:33 last 2/3 in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
The Word who was God and was with God was made flesh and died.
When did he die? How long was he dead? Why if he had the same status as the Word that was God and with God would he have to have had the promise? By the way that promise was made to Abraham and his seed
Christ see Gal 3. Why would God say I will give him the sure mercies of David
Because he was corruptible flesh. Acts 13:35-37
This has everything to do with the OP. Yes Jesus had Faith and as another poster said Jesus also is Faith. Also in Gal 3.
Tom Butler
New Member
I'm sorry for being so dense, but I just can't figure out how the all-knowing God the Son would at any point say, "hey, I've decided not to know everything, so shazam!!, there, some of it's gone from my mind."
Or, was it God who, prior to Jesus earthly birth, said to the Son, "Now Son, as a human being you're not supposed to know everything. So let's agree on some stuff you'll un-know. Ready? Zappp!! Okay, that stuff's gone."
Somehow, my finite mind just can't imagine those conversations between the Father and the Son. Or Jesus' ever having to say "well, I know everything, but I don't know that."
To hold that Jesus laid aside his omniscience is coming perilously close to Open Theism, seems to me.
Or, was it God who, prior to Jesus earthly birth, said to the Son, "Now Son, as a human being you're not supposed to know everything. So let's agree on some stuff you'll un-know. Ready? Zappp!! Okay, that stuff's gone."
Somehow, my finite mind just can't imagine those conversations between the Father and the Son. Or Jesus' ever having to say "well, I know everything, but I don't know that."
To hold that Jesus laid aside his omniscience is coming perilously close to Open Theism, seems to me.
You hold this position so dogmatically and so intently that it would seem you would accuse Jesus of lying when He said that he did not know of the time of his return--no, not him, not the angels in heaven, but His Father only knew the time of His return.
Jesus was not always omniscient. He told us so.
Marcia
Active Member
Not really. What is the point?
I am not sure I'm following you - you are all over the place. Nothing you've posted shows that Jesus had faith.
It shows why he would have had faith, for as another poster said, Jesus said of myself I can do nothing. He had to depend on the Father to give him his
life and glory back. Read John 17:1-5 It shows he had faith and he prays for the glory he once had with the Father. Answer my questions about his death.
If we are justified by faith and that faith is something that WE believe then it is ourselves doing the justifying, but if it is by the faith of Christ then it is Christ doing the justifying.
Last edited by a moderator:
Marcia
Active Member
Depend? You mean he wasn't sure that the Father would raise him?
Percho, I posted scripture twice to show that Jesus raised himself and the Holy Spirit raised him, along with scriptures that the Father raised him.
Yes, he put aside his glory when he incarnated. That does not mean he had to have faith in anyone.
I am not sure what the questions about the death of Jesus mean? I don't get them. Could Jesus have died in the OT? No, he was not incarnated.
Jesus died on the cross and his body was in the ground but Jesus was alive. Death is probably less than a second long.
Tom Butler
New Member
In my post #56, I noted that not every translation mentions "nor the Son."
To save time, I'll note it again:
Maybe the Greek scholars here on the BB can explain the difference in translations, but I'd be hesitant to stake out a firm position against omniscience given the conflicting renderings of the verse.
He believed his Father would raise him. He also believed his Father would give him the Holy Ghost. This is shown in scripture, it is only because you have been led to believe differently that you have difficulty with this. That's the problem, when somebody comes up with some false doctrine it gets passed down from generation to generation. People accept what they are taught and do not always compare it against the scriptures. The scriptures are our authority, not the teachings of our church or some commentator.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (this was the day of Pentacost) says that Jesus received the promise of the Holy Ghost from his Father. Now there is no such thing as a promise without faith. The very definition of promise requires faith.
Here is the definition of promise:
Notice it says assurance, and speaks of something that may be expected. This is exactly how the scriptures define faith.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
So, you cannot have a promise without faith. And the scriptures show that the Father made promises to Jesus the Son. It may be a difficult concept, but why not just believe what the scriptures say?
Peter also confirmed that the promise not to leave his soul in hell applied to Jesus.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Here Peter is quoting from Psalms 16. Look at the verse.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Notice it says "my soul". Who is saying this? Peter makes it clear that this verse is speaking of Jesus. God had sworn with an oath to raise Jesus from the dead. The promise was made to Jesus as shown in Psa 16:10. If the promise had only been to David, it would have said "his soul". So this verse shows that it is Jesus himself speaking. Peter explains it cannot be David because he is not yet raised, and his body has corrupted. And notice the words "leave" and "suffer". This shows Jesus placed his soul in dependence upon his Father. This is faith, this is trust.
So, it may be a difficult concept, but the scriptures show the Father made promises to Jesus, and so necessarily Jesus had to have faith and believe these promises. You cannot have a promise without the concept of faith.
Last edited by a moderator:
Tom Butler
New Member
I suggest that Peter's reference to the "promise of the Holy Spirit" does not mean that God will send the Holy Spirit to the Son. I suggest that this means the promise of the Holy Spirit is meant for us.
John 14:16 And the Father will give you another Comforter..
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name.....
John 15; 26 But when the Comforter is come, which I will send unto you from the Father...
John 16:7 ...for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you, but if I depart I will send him unto you.
So God promises the Holy Spirit, and the Son promises the Holy Spirit, to be sent to the same recipients. The promise became a reality at Pentecost, and is a reality in the life of every believer.
No faith required here on the part of either the Father or the Son. This was determined in eternity by the Godhead, as Marcia has pointed out.
John 14:16 And the Father will give you another Comforter..
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name.....
John 15; 26 But when the Comforter is come, which I will send unto you from the Father...
John 16:7 ...for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you, but if I depart I will send him unto you.
So God promises the Holy Spirit, and the Son promises the Holy Spirit, to be sent to the same recipients. The promise became a reality at Pentecost, and is a reality in the life of every believer.
No faith required here on the part of either the Father or the Son. This was determined in eternity by the Godhead, as Marcia has pointed out.
The fact is that the Holy Spirit never left His ministry, but Jesus was saying He was going to His heavenly role at the right hand of the Father on the throne of the kingdom. It is more a time even for humanity than a time event for either the Holy Spirit or Jesus the Christ.
Cheers,
Jim
Cheers,
Jim
I don't think that there is much discrepancy in Mark
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
You have been quoting from Matthew.
It's exactly the same. You had to believe someone who told you about God. In the case of the Scriptures, you have to believe the accounts of over 35 men.
Marcia
Active Member
He didn't believe it; he knew it. There is a difference. There are several passages in the NT where Jesus predicts his death and resurrection. He also said he would raise himself up, at least twice: one I already quoted twice here, and again here in John 10:
False doctrine!? It's false doctrine to believe Jesus did not have faith! That is really going too far. Also, you are assuming a lot about me without even knowing me. No one ever told me that Jesus did not have faith or he did. The first time I saw it as an issue was with Rob Bell while reading "Velvet Elvis," where he writes that Jesus had faith in Peter to walk on the water.
Please don't lecture me. I say this myself all the time in my ministry. I am using scripture. You are overstepping boundaries here, implying that because I do not think Jesus had faith, that I am going against scripture.
I already responded to this, and others agree with me on this.
Yes, this is a prophecy. Jesus knew he would be resurrected; he predicted it in the Gospels; and furthermore, Jesus raised himself. I posted scriptures at least twice on this.
No, it's not difficult. I just disagree.
Marcia
Active Member
I was saved reading the Bible. I didn't believe any person telling me about God.
I do believe scripture. The view that Jesus had faith is not accepted by all here and I don't see it in scripture. I am not the only one on this thread to have this view.