Did anything die before sin?

[Marcia]

I was just thinking and was wondering if death physically for man was only a post sin thing. In other words, were we created to die in the flesh?

did man have to eat and drink?

did plants die before sin?

my thoughts are purely philosophy, and hold no impact other than interesting conversation by the way...

my thoughts were that if man reproduced and sin didnt happen, then the earth would be pretty loaded.. I understand Gods plan is perfect and sovereign and this isnt possible..

is death bad? it cant be a sin b/c Jesus died.

Nothing and no one died before sin. We know this because after Adam and Eve sinned, God cursed the earth. Romans 8 talks about how creation groans to be redeemed from decay and death - and it will be redeemed one day.

Yes, death is bad. It is called the "last enemy" in 1 Cor. 15:26 and is thrown into the lake of fire in Rev. 20 (I think it's chapter 20).

Adam and Eve ate and drank but they had no aging or illness until they sinned.

 

[Marcia]

Death is the ending or ceasing of life, and since plants were consumed prior to the fall, the plants' live had to end (unless they continued to grow in their stomachs )

The fall is implicitly implied in Romans 5:12

But I don't think the plants died naturally or otherwise would have died if they had not been eaten. There was no death or decay as we know it.

 

[OldRegular]

Genesis 1:29, 30
29. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

It appears that not only man but animals were initially vegetarians.

If God could create the world in 6 days I suspect he could instantaneously change herbivores into carnivores, assuming it was instantaneous of course. :smilewinkgrin: Sin entered the world with the rebellion of Adam but it was some years before the first murder occurred!

 

[zrs6v4]

Nothing and no one died before sin. We know this because after Adam and Eve sinned, God cursed the earth. Romans 8 talks about how creation groans to be redeemed from decay and death - and it will be redeemed one day.

Yes, death is bad. It is called the "last enemy" in 1 Cor. 15:26 and is thrown into the lake of fire in Rev. 20 (I think it's chapter 20).

Adam and Eve ate and drank but they had no aging or illness until they sinned.

Romans 8:21-22 seems to be speaking of the fact the all of creation was effected by sin, rather than death being an effect of sin. A further explanation of your thoughts would be appreciated.

I read chapter 15 and Im not sure what Paul means by death in this context.

 

[Robert Snow]

Interesting question. Some here said that without sin no death or aging occurred? I don't believe this is true. Jesus Christ aged from birth to thirty-three years old and he was sinless.

It's total speculation but had man not sinned, perhaps as man got older he would have yielded his spirit to God at some point. Who knows? God didn't provide the information needed to make a judgment.

Since God knew man would sin, it is a mute point. God didn't have to have an alternate plan in case man didn't sin in the first place.

 

[Marcia]

Romans 8:21-22 seems to be speaking of the fact the all of creation was effected by sin, rather than death being an effect of sin. A further explanation of your thoughts would be appreciated.

I read chapter 15 and Im not sure what Paul means by death in this context.

I agree Rom. 8 is speaking of how creation was affected by sin, but part of that effect was death and decay. I think that is a reasonable conclusion, given that Adam and Eve had to experience age and decay and death because of sin. One would assume that the curse on them was similar for creation.

I think in ch. 15, death is the decay and death of the body, since the bodily resurrection is being spoken of. But if it is called an enemy here (and thrown into the lake of fire in Rev.), then death everywhere is an enemy. Death is not spoke of in a good way anywhere in the bible that I know of. Physical death was a punishment in the OT for Jews who disobeyed certain laws and for those against God. Even the atonement does not mean death was good. The atonement was God using death as a vehicle to triumph over sin and bring life. It was a reversal.

 

[Winman]

If one believes animals did not die before the fall then one must believe the instant Adam sinned sharks went from being vegetarians to carnivours. Their complete physiology changed in an instant. Not only sharks but birds of prey and all other meat eating mammals.

Well, many sharks do eat plants. And the scriptures say the lion will eat straw like an ox.

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

So, if when the Lord comes, animals who eat meat now will eat plants, could not it have been the same before Adam sinned?

The idea that no creatures, including plants, died prior to the Fall is the extreme position of a minority of young earth creationists.

I am one of those young earth creationist extemists. You know, people who believe the world was made in six days like the scriptures say.

 

[zrs6v4]

Interesting question. Some here said that without sin no death or aging occurred? I don't believe this is true. Jesus Christ aged from birth to thirty-three years old and he was sinless.

It's total speculation but had man not sinned, perhaps as man got older he would have yielded his spirit to God at some point. Who knows? God didn't provide the information needed to make a judgment.

Since God knew man would sin, it is a mute point. God didn't have to have an alternate plan in case man didn't sin in the first place.

I had the exact same thoughts as I stated earlier, but your right it is a mystery.

 

[zrs6v4]

I agree Rom. 8 is speaking of how creation was affected by sin, but part of that effect was death and decay. I think that is a reasonable conclusion, given that Adam and Eve had to experience age and decay and death because of sin. One would assume that the curse on them was similar for creation.

I think in ch. 15, death is the decay and death of the body, since the bodily resurrection is being spoken of. But if it is called an enemy here (and thrown into the lake of fire in Rev.), then death everywhere is an enemy. Death is not spoke of in a good way anywhere in the bible that I know of. Physical death was a punishment in the OT for Jews who disobeyed certain laws and for those against God. Even the atonement does not mean death was good. The atonement was God using death as a vehicle to triumph over sin and bring life. It was a reversal.

Not to try to come across as if I was debating , but how would you make the conclusion that part of the fall was death other than it seems bad? I dont really agree or disagree (as many have admitted). As was stated a few time previous I would imagine that since God's plan is so precise and perfect, that all that happened was exactly as it was supposed to. I'm not sure that it would be ok to say that God intended for mankind to live eternally in the flesh or not. If this would be a valid statement then I would say; what was God's plan when the earth kept filling and nobody died? This is part of why I think it is useless to try to imagine God having any other plan than what actually happened, but in good fun, it is an interesting thought.

 

[Winman]

Death is not always spoken of negatively in the scriptures.

Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

I am looking forward to my death someday, so that I will be with the Lord. I'm not rushing it, but I am not fearful of it.

Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

 

[Marcia]

Not to try to come across as if I was debating , but how would you make the conclusion that part of the fall was death other than it seems bad? I dont really agree or disagree (as many have admitted). As was stated a few time previous I would imagine that since God's plan is so precise and perfect, that all that happened was exactly as it was supposed to. I'm not sure that it would be ok to say that God intended for mankind to live eternally in the flesh or not. If this would be a valid statement then I would say; what was God's plan when the earth kept filling and nobody died? This is part of why I think it is useless to try to imagine God having any other plan than what actually happened, but in good fun, it is an interesting thought.

Are you asking why I think part of the fall meant death? I'm not sure what you are asking. If that is what you are asking, it's because the bible tells us that death came because of sin (Rom. 5 and elsewhere).

 

[Marcia]

Death is not always spoken of negatively in the scriptures.

Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

I am looking forward to my death someday, so that I will be with the Lord. I'm not rushing it, but I am not fearful of it.

Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Yes, you are right that in these verse death is not negative, but that is because there is something good through death, not that death itself is good. It is just a temporary death because the saints will have eternal life and a resurrected body. This does not mean death is good.

Here, death is something that Jesus conquered:

Knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. Rom 6:9

Similarly,

but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Tim. 1:10

If Jesus conquers death, if death came through sin, if "the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23), if death is the "last enemy," and if death is thrown into the Lake of Fire, then I have to say that the weight of scripture leans toward death as a bad thing.

This does not mean God does not use death to bring something about, but that does not mean death is good, either. God used unbelievers in the Bible, but that does not mean unbelief is good.

 

[Marcia]

A couple of more:

Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

James 1:15

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

1 John 3:14

To top it off, the unsaved are said to go to "the second death."

 

[Darrenss1]

If Jesus conquers death, if death came through sin, if "the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23), if death is the "last enemy," and if death is thrown into the Lake of Fire, then I have to say that the weight of scripture leans toward death as a bad thing.

This does not mean God does not use death to bring something about, but that does not mean death is good, either. God used unbelievers in the Bible, but that does not mean unbelief is good.

Aren't you straying a little from the context of the OP? The issue is in relation to death before the fall, isn't it? Mankind isn't the only life on the planet that dies, the question is, did the fall cause the death for ALL life, or was life in process that death did in fact occur before the fall? The death of other life forms on earth support the life of other life forms, including man. To think that insects and fish (for example) would live forever as well doesn't make sense with the original Garden model, not only that all life forms would multiply as well through reproduction.

Another issue is do other life forms sin or just man? I tend to think that death that is caused by sin in the Garden was first spiritual (sin nature) and than physical because of their inability to eat of the tree of life.

Darren

 

[Marcia]

Aren't you straying a little from the context of the OP? The issue is in relation to death before the fall, isn't it?

Darren

Well, I think I'm being logical using God's word to say if death came in by sin and corruption and decay to the earth came in through man's sin, then we can conclude natural death and decay did not occur before sin.

There is no evidence in the Bible that death existed before the fall in the sense that things aged and died.

Mankind isn't the only life on the planet that dies, the question is, did the fall cause the death for ALL life, or was life in process that death did in fact occur before the fall? The death of other life forms on earth support the life of other life forms, including man. To think that insects and fish (for example) would live forever as well doesn't make sense with the original Garden model, not only that all life forms would multiply as well through reproduction.

I see your point and I can see why some would say that there was death before the fall, but I think that tends be incompatible with scripture, especially the part about creation groaning for its redemption as a result of the fall. If there was death and decay before the fall, then creation would not be groaning because it would be the same as before the fall.

Another issue is do other life forms sin or just man? I tend to think that death that is caused by sin in the Garden was first spiritual (sin nature) and than physical because of their inability to eat of the tree of life.

No other life forms can sin because they do not have moral sensibility or accountability (since they are not made in the image of God). But I don't see what this has to do with the topic. Creation suffered physically as a result of man's sin.

 

[Darrenss1]

Well, I think I'm being logical using God's word to say if death came in by sin and corruption and decay to the earth came in through man's sin, then we can conclude natural death and decay did not occur before sin.

I don't see anything in scripture that prevents the understanding of death existing before the fall. You said if death came in by sin, however THAT death was in direct connection to mankind, it was not a exhaustive explanation for ALL life, that is man had sinned but other life on earth did not sin, only man. Therefore its man's sin and sinfulness that affects the rest of the world.

There is no evidence in the Bible that death existed before the fall in the sense that things aged and died.

That's an argument of ommision, which really doesn't get you very far, the bible doesn't give any evidence for alot of things because they aren't in the forefront of the story. I believe death existed before the fall and the bible doesn't teach against that anywhere. As far as age, that is an assumption you'll have to make but I'll say this, without aging how can there be reproduction and birth? Adam and Eve were commanded to be fruitful, mulitply, replenish the earth. Growth is a natural cycle that came with ceation.

I see your point and I can see why some would say that there was death before the fall, but I think that tends be incompatible with scripture, especially the part about creation groaning for its redemption as a result of the fall. If there was death and decay before the fall, then creation would not be groaning because it would be the same as before the fall.

IF Paul meant that creation was groaning and moaning in the literal sense, that means creation had to be an actual interactive conscienceness that Paul was able to communicate with. I think that creation moans and groans in the sense that man impacts and affects the world in a bad way because of mans sin and sinfulness.

No other life forms can sin because they do not have moral sensibility or accountability (since they are not made in the image of God). But I don't see what this has to do with the topic. Creation suffered physically as a result of man's sin.

How that relates is that the fall of man and death came by sin relates and impacts mankind and creation is simply the stage where that death happened to occur and preside and is affected by it. As pointed out before I think that the fruit of the tree of life was what was keeping Adam and Eve to live "forever" if they didn't eat of the tree I think they could have died. From what I can tell, our glorified bodies will be completely immortal in a way that Adam and Eve did not experience.

Darren

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Only man is said to have the breath of life, which implies a uniqueness. Plants were most certainly alive, or they wouldn't grow and produce fruit. It's not the same life as man had, but it's life nonetheless. Death is the ending of life...withering is a result of death.

The threat of dying would have meant nothing to Adam and Eve if they didn't already know what death was. It would have been a totally foreign phrase to them, and pointless. It would be like someone telling me if I open this special box, igmurtihan will occur. Meaningless without knowing what it is.

Actually, animals are spoken of has having the breath of life too.

The rest of your post is just opinion.

Just because death was not in world prior to man's sin, which the Scripture teaches, doesn't mean Adam and/or Eve would not understand death. One wonders if people think of Adam and Eve as some sort of floaty air-heads who knew nothing. lol

 

[webdog]

Actually, animals are spoken of has having the breath of life too.

The rest of your post is just opinion.

Just because death was not in world prior to man's sin, which the Scripture teaches, doesn't mean Adam and/or Eve would not understand death. One wonders if people think of Adam and Eve as some sort of floaty air-heads who knew nothing. lol

The closest you can get to claiming animals have the "breath of life" is Genesis 1:30...but it doesn't say it.

Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so.

Ignorance on a matter does not automatically mean one is a "floaty air-head". Please tell how they would have understood something that didn't exist?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The closest you can get to claiming animals have the "breath of life" is Genesis 1:30...but it doesn't say it.

Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so.

Ignorance on a matter does not automatically mean one is a "floaty air-head". Please tell how they would have understood something that didn't exist?

What I thinking about was

Gen 6:17
And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.

Gen 7:15
And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life.

Well, the animals are the critters that went on the ark two by two.

As to answering your question how they would understand death...I have no clue. These were people who lived with God without sin. Their natures orginially were not stained by sin. I have no way of knowing how much God taught them or the understanding, wisdom, and knoweldge He gave them.

Since the Lord warned them about death, I can only assume they understood what that meant, not by experience, since the Scritpure says death was not in the world before sin, but they knew from God.

 

[webdog]

What I thinking about was

Gen 6:17
And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.

Gen 7:15
And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life.

Well, the animals are the critters that went on the ark two by two.

As to answering your question how they would understand death...I have no clue. These were people who lived with God without sin. Their natures orginially were not stained by sin. I have no way of knowing how much God taught them or the understanding, wisdom, and knoweldge He gave them.

Since the Lord warned them about death, I can only assume they understood what that meant, not by experience, since the Scritpure says death was not in the world before sin, but they knew from God.

If you think animals received the same breath of life God breathed into man, you should hold to many being simply an animal. Just because something doesn't breathe doesn't mean it is not alive. Plants breathe co2, btw.

Concerning Adam and Eve, for God to tell them what would occur would mean they would have the mental faculties necessary to understand it. As humans, we know knowledge of something is needed to process information.