When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

[kyredneck]

In His Olivet Discourse to His disciples, The Prophet gave them an unmistakably clear sign whereby they were to be warned that it was time to move, with explicit directions on how to secure their safety from the wrath that was to come during the 66-70 A.D. war with the Romans:

“But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.” Lu 21:20-23
[the corresponding passages in Mt & Mk reads ' the abomination of desolation' in lieu of 'armies']

To paraphrase: “When Jerusalem gets surrounded by armies, run for the hills. Leave the country, get out of the city, and don't go back.”

How do you get out of a city that's surrounded by armies?

By divine providence, that's how.

History: Sometime late in the year 66 A.D., Cestius Gallus, [Roman] Governor of Syria and Commander of Roman forces, marched his army into Judea in an attempt to quell the revolts. Read Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book II, Chapter 19; excerpts:

“But now Cestius, observing that the disturbances that were begun among the Jews afforded him a proper opportunity to attack them, took his whole army along with him, and put the Jews to flight, and pursued them to Jerusalem. He then pitched his camp upon the elevation called Scopus, [or watch-tower,] which was distant seven furlongs from the city; yet did not he assault them in three days' time, out of expectation that those within might perhaps yield a little;..........when Cestius was come into the city, he set the part called Bezetha, which is called Cenopolis, [or the new city,] on fire; as he did also to the timber market; after which he came into the upper city, and pitched his camp over against the royal palace; and had he but at this very time attempted to get within the walls by force, he had won the city presently, and the war had been put an end to at once;.... a great number of the officers of the horse, had been corrupted by Florus, and diverted him from that his attempt; and that was the occasion that this war lasted so very long, and thereby the Jews were involved in such incurable calamities....... had he but continued the siege a little longer, had certainly taken the city; but it was, I suppose, owing to the aversion God had already at the city and the sanctuary, that he was hindered from putting an end to the war that very day.....he recalled his soldiers from the place,..... without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world.”

Note by translator of the history, William Whiston:

"There may be another very important and very providential reason assigned for this strange and foolish retreat of Cestius, which, if Josephus had been at the time of writing his history a Christian, he might probably have taken notice of also; and that is the opportunity afforded the Jewish Christians in the city, of calling to mind the prediction and caution given them by Christ that 'when they should see the abomination of desolation' (the idolatrous Roman armies, with the images of their idols in their ensigns) ready to lay Jerusalem desolate, 'stand where it ought not,' or 'in the holy place'; or 'when they should see Jerusalem encompassed with armies,' they should then 'flee to the mountains.' By complying with which, those Jewish Christians fled to the mountains of Perea, and escaped this destruction. Nor was there perhaps any one instance of a more unpolitic, but more providential conduct, than this retreat of Cestius visible during this whole siege of Jerusalem, which (siege) was providentially such a 'great tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the world to that time; no, nor ever should be'.”

John Gill, on Matthew 24:16:

"...it is remarked by several interpreters, and which Josephus takes notice of with surprise, that Cestius Gallus having advanced with his army to Jerusalem, and besieged it, on a sudden without any cause, raised the siege, and withdrew his army, when the city might have been easily taken; by which means a signal was made, and an opportunity given to the Christians, to make their escape: which they accordingly did, and went over to Jordan, as Eusebius says, to a place called Pella; so that when Titus came a few months after, there was not a Christian in the city . . "

 

[ReformedBaptist]

That's an amazing fulfillment of prophecy.

 

[Winman]

Problem is, Jesus was not speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and you can see that if you read carefully.

Luke 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

In verse 9 Jesus speaks of the end. Did the world end when Jerusalem was conquered in 70 A.D.?

In verse 27 Jesus says they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Did that happen in 70 A.D.?

Did the signs in the heavens happen in 70 A.D.?

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Did Mount Olivet divide in two as shown in Zechariah?

Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

When the Lord sets his foot on Mount Olivet and it divides and creates a great valley, this is when those in Judea will flee to the mountains. This did not occur in Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

And as bad as the destruction of Jerusalem was, it could hardly be the greatest tribulation ever. More Jews were killed by Hitler in WWII than by the Romans in 70 A.D.

Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And the times of the Gentiles shown in verse 24 is still future as shown in Revelations.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

By the way, most scholars believe John wrote this around 90 A.D., twenty years after Jerusalem had been destroyed. And John showed these events as being yet future.

 

[kyredneck]

Problem is, Jesus was not speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and you can see that if you read carefully.........

So, Winman, what do you do with these trips?

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34

30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32

And while you're 'splainin' that, expound on these also:

And in those days cometh John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, saying, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mt 3.1-2

From that time began Jesus to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mt 4.17

And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2.40

And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mt. 3:10

But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10:23

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me. This saying therefore went forth among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, that he should not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Jn 21:22- 23

37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10

Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23: 34-36

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power. Mk 9:1

John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but there cometh he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire: whose fan is in his hand, thoroughly to cleanse his threshing-floor, and to gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Lu 3:17

Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. I Cor 10.11

Let your forbearance be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Phil 4:5

hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:2

else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb 9:26

who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake, 1 Pet 1:20

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore of sound mind, and be sober unto prayer: 1 Pet 4.7

For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Pet 4:17

5 Wherefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall each man have his praise from God. 1 Cor 4
And in covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose sentence now from of old lingereth not, and their destruction slumbereth not. 2 Pet 2.3

Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour. 1 Jn 2: 18

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

Compare with:

(26 And the vision of the evenings and mornings which hath been told is true: but shut thou up the vision; for it belongeth to many days to come. Dan 8
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end. Dan 12)

 

[Grasshopper]

In verse 9 Jesus speaks of the end. Did the world end when Jerusalem was conquered in 70 A.D.?

As has been pointed out several times to you the word for "world" in the Greek means "age" not world. Yes, the "age" ended in AD70.

In verse 27 Jesus says they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Did that happen in 70 A.D.?

Jesus told Caiaphus he would see it:

Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Secondly, "coming on the clouds" is a Hebrew idiom found throughout the OT and does not refer to a physical coming.

Did the signs in the heavens happen in 70 A.D.?

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The destruction of Babylon centuries before Jesus is described in Is.13. Pay careful attention to the language used to describe that event in verse 10.

Did Mount Olivet divide in two as shown in Zechariah?

Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Once again your lack of knowledge of the OT is hampering your understanding. Here is what Gill says of Micah chapter 1:

"This chapter treats of the judgments of God on Israel and Judah for their idolatry"

Micah describes this judgment this way:

3Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads the high places of the earth.
4The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.

No need to force a literalistic interpretation on verses that obviously were not meant to be so. Unless you can provide evidence that Jesus and the NT writers use these exact phrases in a different mannner than did the OT Prophets.

And as bad as the destruction of Jerusalem was, it could hardly be the greatest tribulation ever. More Jews were killed by Hitler in WWII than by the Romans in 70 A.D.

The Jews of WW II were not God's covenantal people.

Gary DeMar says this:

"Any tribulation the Jews experience in other countries is not in view here. The death of six million Jews at the hands of the Nazis did not take place in the land of Israel. The great tribulation is a description of what happened to Jews living in Israel in the first century. Over one million Jews died at the hands of the Romans. Nothing will ever compare to it because of Israel's special covenantal status. Her sin was great, therefore her judgment was great." (Last Days Madness, p. 129, n 22.)

Spurgeon said this:

Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred." (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412,413)

Perhaps you would like to answer DeMar's comments:

"The tribulation period cannot be global because all one has to do to escape is flee to the mountains. Notice that Jesus says "let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains" (Matt 24:16). Judea is not the world; it's not even the nation of Israel!" (ibid., p. 121)

By the way, most scholars believe John wrote this around 90 A.D., twenty years after Jerusalem had been destroyed. And John showed these events as being yet future.

Once again you need to broaden your sources.

Philip Schaff
"On two points I have changed my opinion -- the second Roman captivity of Paul (which I am disposed to admit in the interest of the Pastoral Epistles), and the date of the Apocalypse (which I now assign, with the majority of modern critics, to the year 68 or 69 instead of 95, as before)." (Vol. I, Preface to the Revised Edition, 1882 The History of the Christian Church, volume 1)

If you really wish to study the subject of when Revelation was written I recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0915815435/?tag=baptis04-20

 

[OldRegular]

kyredneck

I agree with your interpretation of Luke 21: 20-23. however i do not believe that the chapter in Luke and the corresponding chapter Matthew 24 is talking only about AD 70. I believe that some passages refer to the Second Coming at which time the General resurrection and Judgment shall occur. [John 5:28, 29]

 

[kyredneck]

.....i do not believe that the chapter in Luke and the corresponding chapter Matthew 24 is talking only about AD 70. I believe that some passages refer to the Second Coming at which time the General resurrection and Judgment shall occur. [John 5:28, 29]

Hello OR. When it comes to eschatology I am generally an odd mixture of Preterist, Idealist, and Amillennialist , I find merit and answers in all of them and I derive great pleasure from 'discovering' literal or spiritual fulfillments of prophecy. But when it comes to future things such as the 'Second' (or next?) Coming, General resurrection, and Judgment, I quickly become pan-mill, you know, it's all gonna pan out the way it's supposed to. Maybe that's just a cop out on my part, but, it's hard for me to be adamant concerning anything future. There are at least a couple of things I'm pretty sure of though, and that's that there will be a general incoming of the Jews to Christ some day, and, at His 'next' coming, 'Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.' [1Cor 15:24].
--------------------------------------------------

Question to all:

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10:23

When did/does this 'coming' of Christ occur?

 

[Winman]

kyredneck

So you believe that Jesus returned in 70 A.D. or thereabouts?

I want to be clear here, is that what you believe? I ask that because you posted these verses.

But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10:23

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

 

[kyredneck]

kyredneck
So you and Grasshopper both believe that Jesus returned in 70 A.D.?
I want to be clear here, is that what you both believe? I ask that because you posted these verses.

I can't speak for Grasshopper, though I suspect that he and I would probably agree more than disagree in the area of eschatology, but, yes, Christ returned in judgment on 'that generation'. This is the big 'sticking point' that mainstream(?) Christianity has with preterism; they see the 'coming of the Son of Man' only as the 'second coming' when it's obvious from scripture that there was to be a coming of Christ before 'that generation' expired.

 

[Winman]

I had to modify my previous post, I see Grasshopper believes something else.

I will ask you, what do you do with all the prophesies that show Jews during the tribulation?

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

It is clearly shown that the four angels are standing on the four corners of the earth, so this is not a local happening.

You have twelve thousand from each tribe of Israel clearly identified (sealed). Did that happen in 70 A.D.?

Then you have a great multitude which no man can number from all the nations and peoples of the earth standing before the Lamb. Did that happen in 70 A.D.

Jesus the Lamb will be sitting on his throne (his kingdom). Did that happen in 70 A.D.?

Do people still hunger and thirst since 70 A.D.? Does the sun still light on them?

Maybe it is you who needs to learn the OT.

 

[Winman]

I can't speak for Grasshopper, though I suspect that he and I would probably agree more than disagree in the area of eschatology, but, yes, Christ returned in judgment on 'that generation'. This is the big 'sticking point' that mainstream(?) Christianity has with preterism; they see the 'coming of the Son of Man' only as the 'second coming' when it's obvious from scripture that there was to be a coming of Christ before 'that generation' expired.

So, you believe Jesus actually appeared in the clouds when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem? That's shocking, it's the first time I've heard of this. Seems the Romans would have recorded such an event.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The apostle John must not have understood the scriptures as you do, he wrote this about 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. He was still looking for Jesus to come on the clouds. And he said every eye would see him, so I still am at a loss as to why this was not recorded in history.

 

[kyredneck]

.....I will ask you, what do you do with all the prophesies that show Jews during the tribulation?....

'The Great Tribulation', i.e. 'The Time of Jacob's Trouble', happened in the A.D. 66-70 war with the Romans. As I've stated in other posts, this does NOT preclude a twofold or dual fulfillment of the prophecies on a greater or worldwide scale during the Christian era, IMO.

 

[Winman]

'The Great Tribulation', i.e. 'The Time of Jacob's Trouble', happened in the A.D. 66-70 war with the Romans. As I've stated in other posts, this does NOT preclude a twofold or dual fulfillment of the prophecies on a greater or worldwide scale during the Christian era, IMO.

Oh, a twofold or dual fulfillment. I see. How convenient.

So, you believe the great tribulation or "time of Jacob's trouble" happened around 66-70 A.D.? I don't think so.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So, when Jesus came around 70 A.D. the sun was darkened, the moon gave no light, and the stars fell from heaven?

Did all the tribes of the earth mourn when they saw this? Because John said every eye will see Jesus when he comes on the clouds, and that is what Matt 24:30 says also.

And we must not be the elect, because they were already rounded up way back around 70 A.D.

Still hard to believe that if all the tribes of the earth saw when Jesus came with the clouds in 70 A.D. that nobody bothered to record this event.

 

[Grasshopper]

So, you believe Jesus actually appeared in the clouds when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem? That's shocking, it's the first time I've heard of this.

I sometimes wonder if you actually read anything we post. "Coming on the clouds" is Hebrew idiom found throughout the OT. Go back there and study them.

Seems the Romans would have recorded such an event.

The Romans had a historian his name was Josephus. He wrote some amazing things in his work "The Jewish Wars". Perhaps you should read it sometime then you wont be so shocked.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Earth doesn't always mean entire world. In fact I would argue it rarely does in prophetic texts.

gē
Thayer Definition:
1) arable land
2) the ground, the earth as a standing place
3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water
4) the earth as a whole
4a) the earth as opposed to the heavens
4b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region

Believe it or not, there were commentators before Hal Lindsey and even before CI Scofield. Adam Clarke was one:

Adam Clarke

Rev 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds - This relates to his coming to execute judgment on the enemies of his religion; perhaps to his coming to destroy Jerusalem, as he was to be particularly manifested to them that pierced him, which must mean the incredulous and rebellious Jews.
And all kindreds of the earth - Πασαι αἱ φυλαι της γης· All the tribes of the land. By this the Jewish people are most evidently intended, and therefore the whole verse may be understood as predicting the destruction of the Jews; and is a presumptive proof that the Apocalypse was written before the final overthrow of the Jewish state.
Even so, Amen - Ναι, αμην· Yea, Amen. It is true, so be it. Our Lord will come and execute judgment on the Jews and Gentiles. This the Jews and Romans particularly felt.

The apostle John must not have understood the scriptures as you do, he wrote this about 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem.

You can keep repeating this but it falls on deaf ears. Your error has already been dealt with.

He was still looking for Jesus to come on the clouds. And he said every eye would see him, so I still am at a loss as to why this was not recorded in history.

John Gill

and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see", as is expressed by Christ, in Mat_26:64. Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment; though that will be in the clouds of heaven, and with great power and glory; but his coming to bring on, and give the finishing stroke to the destruction of that people, which was a dark and cloudy dispensation to them: and when they felt the power of his arm, might, if not blind and stupid to the last degree, see the glory of his person, that he was more than a mere man, and no other than the Son of God, whom they had despised, rejected, and crucified; and who came to set up his kingdom and glory in a more visible and peculiar manner, among the Gentiles.


You mentioned Matthew 10:23.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

This verse is pretty plain, it's surprising a literalist such as yourself has such problems understanding it. What does it literally say? Those great minds of the past understood it:

John Gill

till the son of man be come; which is not to be understood of his second coming to judgment, but either of his resurrection from the dead, when he was declared to be the Son of God, and when his glorification began; or of the pouring forth of the Spirit at the day of Pentecost, when his kingdom began more visibly to take place, and he was made, or manifested to be the Lord and Christ; or of his coming to take vengeance on his enemies, that would not have him to rule over them, and the persecutors of his ministers, at the destruction of Jerusalem.

Albert Barnes

Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel ... - That is, in fleeing from persecutors from one city to another, you shall not have gone to every city in Judea until the end of the Jewish economy shall occur. See the notes at Mat_24:28-30. By "the coming of the Son of Man," that is, of "Christ," is probably meant the destruction of Jerusalem, which happened about thirty years after this was spoken. The words are often used in this sense. See Mat_24:30; Mar_13:26; Luk_21:27, Luk_21:32.


It is preterist who take the words of Jesus literally.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[OldRegular]

Hello OR. When it comes to eschatology I am generally an odd mixture of Preterist, Idealist, and Amillennialist , I find merit and answers in all of them and I derive great pleasure from 'discovering' literal or spiritual fulfillments of prophecy. But when it comes to future things such as the 'Second' (or next?) Coming, General resurrection, and Judgment, I quickly become pan-mill, you know, it's all gonna pan out the way it's supposed to. Maybe that's just a cop out on my part, but, it's hard for me to be adamant concerning anything future. There are at least a couple of things I'm pretty sure of though, and that's that there will be a general incoming of the Jews to Christ some day, and, at His 'next' coming, 'Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.' [1Cor 15:24].
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Question to all:

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10:23

When did/does this 'coming' of Christ occur?

I believe the term partial preterist would fit you better than preterist. I generally claim to be amillennial in that I don't believe in an earthly millennial reign as do the dispensationalists or covenant pre millennialists. Some might call me a partial preterist since I believe that the Book of Revelation was written for the comfort of the first century Christians undergoing persecution as well for the comfort of Christians of all time. I also believe that the Olivet Discourse clearly includes a discussion of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

As far as the term pan-millennialist there is no problem with that. I suppose if we would all 'fess up we would have to admit that only God knows exactly how He will bring things to a close. I believe in a General resurrection and Judgment and don't get excited about these esoteric theories such as dispensationalism. Everything will pan out and the true believers will be vindicated at the Great White Throne when the chaste Bride of Jesus Christ, the New Jerusalem, the Glory Church [as B.H. Carroll would say], descends from heaven, and the Triune God will tabernacle with man.

 

[Winman]

Wow, you guys really love that Gill fellow. I prefer the scriptures. And I am not really interested in what Gill or any other commentator says, why can't you argue for yourself? Don't you know the scriptures? Or do you just rely on the interpretations of others?

"Coming on the clouds" may be an idiom, but the scriptures say every eye will see him. Did Josephus record people seeing Jesus with their eyes?

You know, I've noticed a few people here spend great energy and time trying to convince people that the scriptures do not really mean what they say. Whenever you show them something from scripture that even a child could easily understand, their response is "that doesn't really mean that".

Nah, when Jesus said he would come with the clouds and every eye would see him, that doesn't really mean what is says.

If I were to listen to fellows like you I would throw my Bible in the trash because it cannot be understood. And whose opinion of what the scriptures really say should I listen to? How do I know if they are correct? This reeks of Roman Catholicism where they teach only the elect few can understand the scriptures.

Prov 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Wow, you guys really love that Gill fellow. I prefer the scriptures. And I am not really interested in what Gill or any other commentator says

Should we take your advice and stop listening to your commentary as well?

 

[Winman]

Should we take your advice and stop listening to your commentary as well?

Yes. Don't listen to me. Read the scriptures for yourself and ask God to help you understand them properly. I am a man just like yourself, I am quite fallible.

Prov 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

The scriptures say if you cry after knowledge and lift up your voice for understanding, if you seek it as silver or hid treasure, then you will find it.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

The scriptures say if we lack wisdom, then ask of God and he will give it to us. But you must believe, this is a conditional promise.

We don't need the writings of men to explain the scriptures to us. I would not trust another man when it comes to my very soul, I want to find out for myself.

This is a life or death matter you know. Are you willing to trust where your soul will spend eternity into the hands of a mortal man? I'm not.

 

[Grasshopper]

Wow, you guys really love that Gill fellow. I prefer the scriptures. And I am not really interested in what Gill or any other commentator says, why can't you argue for yourself? Don't you know the scriptures? Or do you just rely on the interpretations of others?

Yea, you learned all your pre-mill-pre trib dispie view straight from the Bible. Nobody ever taught it to you and you never read a book on it. You read Daniel 9 and noticed that huge gap all by yourself. Please.

Why not actually address the substance of the posts? Why do you not answer questions?

"Coming on the clouds" may be an idiom, but the scriptures say every eye will see him. Did Josephus record people seeing Jesus with their eyes?

So now historians like Josephus matter to you? You just said you want nothing but scripture but now you want outside verification of everything. Which is it?

You know, I've noticed a few people here spend great energy and time trying to convince people that the scriptures do not really mean what they say.

Yes, I was just pointing out to someone recently that Revelation 1:1,3 were quite plain yet they insisted it cannot mean what it says.

Whenever you show them something from scripture that even a child could easily understand, their response is "that doesn't really mean that".

Exactly. When Jesus said he would come into His Kingdom before some standing there died, or when Jesus said those living in His generation would live to see the events of Matthew 24, or when James says the coming of the Lord is at hand, or........ well you get the picture. Even a child could understand simple time statements. Right???

Nah, when Jesus said he would come with the clouds and every eye would see him, that doesn't really mean what is says.

And God made a bunch of blind and deaf people in Jesus' day according to Paul:

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

If I were to listen to fellows like you I would throw my Bible in the trash because it cannot be understood.

Well you seemed to have ripped several passages out already.

And whose opinion of what the scriptures really say should I listen to? How do I know if they are correct?

Is that a self reflective question?

This reeks of Roman Catholicism where they teach only the elect few can understand the scriptures.

Only Dispies can understand scriptures. Therefore all dispies are Catholic. I love your logic. Care to get back to scriptures and answering questions?

Prov 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Hey, you are aware of the OT. Care to finally comment on the context of Isaiah 13 and how verse 10 is to be interpreted?

 

[kyredneck]

Oh, a twofold or dual fulfillment. I see. How convenient.

So, you believe the great tribulation or "time of Jacob's trouble" happened around 66-70 A.D.? I don't think so.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:......

And he [Joseph] dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed yet a dream: and, behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren; and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? Gen 37:9,10

And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was the child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered. Rev 12:1,2

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mt 24:29

The sun and the moon and the stars represent Israel in these passages. 'The Prophet' is describing the 'consummation of the age' with hyperbole, i.e, the light of the old covenant would cease to shine.