When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

[kyredneck]

Quotation from 'The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation', by Philip Mauro

THE IMPORTANCE OF THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM

It is greatly to be regretted that those who, in our day, give themselves to the study and exposition of prophecy, seem not to be aware of the immense significance of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, which was accompanied by the extinction of Jewish national existence, and the dispersion of the Jewish people among all the nations. The failure to recognize the significance of that event, and the vast amount of prophecy which it fulfilled, has been the cause of great confusion, for the necessary consequence of missing the past fulfilment of predicted events is to leave on our hands a mass of prophecies for which we must needs contrive fulfilments in the future. The harmful results are two fold; for first, we are thus deprived of the evidential value, and the support to the faith, of those remarkable fulfilments of prophecy which are so clearly presented to us in authentic contemporary histories; and second, our vision of things to come is greatly obscured and confused by the transference to the future of predicted events which, in fact, have already happened, and whereof complete records have been preserved for our information.

Obviously we cannot with profit enter upon the study of unfulfilled prophecy until we have settled our minds as to the predicted things which have already come to pass.

A striking instance of the dislocation of great historic events which happened in accordance with, and in fulfilment of, prophecy, lies before us in the case of that unparalleled affliction which is called in (#Mt 24:21) the "great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world," and which is doubtless the same as that spoken of in (#Jer 30:7) as "the time of Jacob's trouble," and in (@Da 12:1) as "a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation." From the clear indications given in the three prophecies just mentioned, and from the detailed records that have been preserved for us in trustworthy contemporary history, it should be an easy matter to identify the period thus referred to with the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus. The Lord's own predictions and warnings concerning that event, which was then close at hand, were most explicit. And not only so, but He plainly said that "all these things shall come upon this generation." Besides all that, He specified the very sins for which that generation was to be thus punished beyond anything known before, or that should be thereafter, thus making it a simple impossibility that the "tribulation" and "vengeance" which He predicted could fall upon any subsequent generation.

 

[kyredneck]

More from Mauro:

WRATH TO THE UTTERMOST

But the greatness of the calamity which Christ foretold can best be understood by consideration of the gravity of the sin which brought it upon the city and people, in comparison with that for which God used Nebuchadnezzar as the instrument of His vengeance. Christ laid to the charge of the fathers that they had "killed the prophets," and stoned the messengers God had sent to them. This agrees with the record found in (#2Ch 36:14-17

"Moreover all the chief of the priests and the people transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the Lord which He had hallowed in Jerusalem. And the Lord God of their fathers sent to them by His messengers, rising up betimes and sending; because He had compassion on His people and His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till there was no remedy. Therefore He brought upon them the King of the Chaldees," etc.

But now (in Christ's day) they despised the words of God spoken by His Son; they mocked Him; and finally they betrayed Him and put Him to death. Who can measure the enormity of this crime? But there was even more. For not only did they reject Christ in Person, but they subsequently rejected, persecuted, killed, and crucified those whom the risen Lord sent to them with the offer of mercy in the Gospel. Christ included this in the iniquity He charged against them; and He said that thereby they would fill up the measure of their fathers.

The apostle Paul was one of those messengers who thus suffered at their hands. Speaking of this wickedness of the Jews he said:

"Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men; forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, TO FILL UP THEIR SINS ALWAY; FOR THE WRATH IS COME UPON THEM TO THE UTTERMOST" (#1Th 2:16).

Thus we are distinctly informed, both by the Lord Himself, and by His servant Paul, (1) that the sin and iniquity of that generation of Jews went far beyond the evil deeds of their fathers; and (2) that the "wrath" which was then about to be poured out upon them was to be "to the uttermost."

Such being the facts of the matter, we would ask, first, if there is to be a future generation of Jews upon which is to fall a yet greater tribulation, what is to be the occasion thereof? and what is to be the crime for which that future generation of Israelites is to be punished? What crime can they commit which would be in any way comparable to that of betraying and crucifying their Messiah?

Second, if indeed such a terrible punishment yet awaits "Israel's long afflicted race," how is it that every prophecy which speaks of God's future dealings with that people, holds out the prospects not of wrath to the uttermost, but--of mercy? For we are not aware of any prophecy concerning the remainder of Israel, that gives any hint of such a thing as the greatest of all afflictions being yet in store for them, but rather blessing through believing the Gospel (cf. #Ro 11:23).

 

[kyredneck]

More from Mauro, emphasis mine, note the huge numbers that gathered in Jerusalem at Passover, which was when Titus laid seige to it in AD70

SELF-INFLICTED SUFFERINGS

In the light, therefore, of this comparison of scripture with scripture, we think it plain that the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:14 was that unparalleled calamity, with its unspeakable sufferings, which befell the city and people in A.D. 70.

In the history of "The Wars of the Jews" by Josephus we have a detailed account, written by an eye witness, of the almost unbelievable sufferings of the Jews during the siege of Jerusalem. To this account we will refer later on; but we wish to state at this point that the distresses of those who were hemmed in by the sudden appearance of the Roman armies were peculiar in this respect, namely, that what they endured was mainly self-inflicted. That is to say, they suffered far more from cruelties and tortures inflicted upon one another, than from the common enemy outside the walls. In this strange feature of the case it was surely "a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time" (#Da 12:1).

What went on within the distressed city calls to mind the words of Isaiah:

"Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel (the food) of the fire. No man shall spare his brother. And he shall snatch on the right hand and shall be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand and not be satisfied; they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm. Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh. For all this His anger is not turned away, but His wrath is poured out still" (#Isa 9:19-21).

See also:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1489071#post1489071

At that time various calamities and disturbances began to take place. Bands of robbers infested the country, and in the city there arose an organized company of assassins called Sicarii, who slew men in the daytime, and in the city. This they did chiefly at festivals, when they mingled with the multitudes and, by means of daggers concealed under their garments, they stabbed those who were their enemies. The high priest Jonathan was one of their victims (II 13, 3).

Another class of trouble makers were certain men who, though not thieves or murderers, yet laid waste the happy state of the city no less than did those murderers. These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretence of Divine inspiration. It is easy to recognize in these men the false prophets whereof the Lord warned His disciples. Continuing, Josephus says' These prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen and went before them into the wilderness, pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty (II 13:4).

There was also an Egyptian false prophet, who got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him. These he led about from the wilderness to the mount which is called the mount of Olives. This, according to Josephus, was in the days when Felix was governor. Consequently it was at the time of Paul's last visit to Jerusalem, which calls to mind that the chief captain before whom Paul was taken after the disturbance in the Temple, supposed that he was that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers (#Ac 21:38). It also brings to mind the definite warning of Christ, Wherefore, if they shall say to you, Behold, He is in the desert, go not forth (#Mt 24:26).

Josephus likens the social conditions at that time to those of a body which is thoroughly diseased, in that when trouble subsided in one place it broke out immediately in another. For, says he, a company of deceivers and robbers got together, and persuaded the Jews to revolt, and exhorted them to assert their liberty (id. 6).

About this time Felix was succeeded by Festus (as is also recorded in (#Ac 24:27), and he by Florus, who was the most wicked of all the Roman governors, and the immediate occasion of the war. This was in the twelfth year of Emperor Nero, A.D. 66. Josephus relates that when Cestius Gallus came to Jerusalem at the passover season the people came about him not fewer in number than three millions (II 14:3). This shows the immense numbers which gathered in Jerusalem at that season.

Josephus relates with much detail the atrocities and barbarities which the people suffered at the hands of the soldiers, and describes their agonies and lamentations. On one occasion the soldiers, after plundering the citizens, crucified many of them, the number of those slain (including women and children) being about 3600 on that single occasion. It appears to have been the deliberate purpose of Florus to goad the Jews into a revolt, so that thereby his own acts of plunder and other crimes might be covered up (II 14, 9).


Soon after this, however, the priests were persuaded that they should refuse to receive any gift or sacrifice for any foreigner. And this was the true beginning of our war with the Romans; for they (the temple authorities) rejected the sacrifice of Caesar on this account (II 17, 2).....

There were at that time two parties in Jerusalem. One turbulent faction advocated immediate revolt against the Romans. The other party, led by the priests and the chief of the Pharisees, realizing the madness of the proposal, sought to restrain the seditious element; but finding they would not listen to argument or persuasion, they sent to the governor Florus, and also to Agrippa, for troops to quell the revolt. From that time the fighting began; but the Jews killed one another in numbers far greater than those slain by the soldiers. The Roman garrison was about that time besieged in the fortress of Antonia (in the temple area), and was taken and either slain or dispersed (II 17, 7). A little later another Roman garrison, besieged at Mesada, which had been Herod's stronghold, surrendered under promise that their lives would be spared, but they were treacherously slain after they had laid down their arms (II 17, 10). These actions, of course, aroused the Roman authorities, who began to make preparations to subdue the revolters. In the city of Caesarea (built by Herod the Great), above 20,000 Jews were killed in one hour, and all Caesarea was emptied of its Jewish inhabitants; for Florus caught such as ran away, and sent them to the galleys. This enraged the whole Jewish nation, so that they laid waste the villages of Syria and elsewhere, burning some cities to the ground.

"But," says Josephus, the Syrians were even with the Jews in the multitude of the men they slew. The disorders in all Syria were terrible. Every city was divided into two armies, and the preservation of the one party was in the destruction of the other. So the daytime was spent in shedding of blood, and the night in fear, which was, of the two, the more terrible * * *

It was then common to see cities filled with dead bodies, still lying unburied; those of old men mingled with infants, all scattered about together. Women also lay among them without any covering. You might then see the whole province full of inexpressible calamities. "

In some places the horrors were worse because Jews fought against Jews. In Scythopolis alone above 13,000 were slain at one time (II 18:1 & 2). Josephus relates the case of one prominent man who, because of the terrible things happening all around, and in order to save his family from a worse fate, killed first his father and mother with the sword--they willingly submitting--and afterwards his wife and children, finally taking his own life (II 18:3). This incident will give us at least a faint idea of the awful conditions of those 'days of vengeance, and of wrath upon this people.

Many pages are filled with accounts of the slaughter of the Jews in various places. Reading them we are impressed with the Saviour's saying that except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved (#Mt 24:22). The calamities were beyond description. Thus, at Alexandria, where the Jews had enjoyed the greatest privileges for centuries, they were incited to rise in revolt by the seditious element, and were destroyed unmercifully, and this, their destruction, was complete. Houses were first plundered of what was in them, and then set on fire by the Romans. No mercy was shown to the infants, and no regard had to the aged; but they went on with the slaughter of persons of every age, till all the place was overflowed with blood, and fifty thousand of them lay dead in heaps (II l8:8).

 

[kyredneck]

More from Mauro, emphasis mine:

ISRAEL'S LAST PROBATION

We have sought to impress upon our readers the fact that the destruction of Jerusalem, and the final breakup of the Jewish nation, was a matter of immense importance in the history of the world, as divinely viewed and written. We would now, in closing this chapter, call attention to the fact that God, in marvellous forbearance and goodness, did not execute His righteous judgment upon the nation at once, but gave them a final period of probation, which lasted just 40 years, from A.D. 30, when the Lord was crucified, to A.D. 70, when the city was destroyed and the nation exterminated.

The number 40 appears to be the measure of full probation. The Israelites were tested for 40 years in the wilderness at the beginning of their national career. That was under the Law. And at the end thereof, God gave them another probation of 40 years, under the Gospel. Other periods of full probation are found in the Scriptures, as when Moses left the people to themselves, while he was in the mountain 40 days. The first three kings of Israel (Saul, David and Solomon) reigned the full period of 40 years. And finally our Lord was tested for 40 days in the wilderness, with the wild beasts, and tempted of the devil.

[Peter was the apostle to the circumcision; IMO, the correct application of this passage refers to that generation of Jews that God gave this probation to:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet 3:9]

 

[Grasshopper]

Convenient excuse.

Do you have no integrity? In post after post I have answered your questions and objections. It is you who come up with excuse after excuse why you can't answer. your to tired , it's getting late, I spend to much time on these boards etc.....meanwhile you then run to the Calvinist discussions and post and post and post. So don't accuse me of making excuses.

Look, I made a mistake,

You've made several.

I thought Old Regular's post was yours. But you can see I did answer it. Look at the questions he posed to me and see how I answered him.

Why don't you answer the ones I posed??????

It's getting late again, I won't be on much longer. That is not an excuse, look at the times I posted tonight. I do have a life outside this forum.

Same song, 15th verse.

I probably have time for one or two questions before I go. Ask quickly (very quickly) and I will try to answer. If not, I'll get back tomorrow.

Here are just a few that I have asked over the last several days with you having plenty of time to answer. I'll try one last time:

What do you do with Matthew 16:27?
What do you do with Matthew 26:64?
What do you do with Matthew 10:23?
What do you do with James 5:7-8?
What about Daniel 2 and the timing of the Kingdom?
What about Matthew 23? Still believe it is future?
What do the "like the days of Noah" refer to?
Why go to the Mountains if the entire world is going to be destroyed?
What about Micah 1?
What does 1 Peter 4:7 mean?
Why do the writers of the NT say they were living in the last days?
Why is the Greek unnecessary?

 

[Winman]

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

How does this prove Jesus came in 70 A.D.? The scriptures say every eye will see him. Do you have any historical records of people seeing Jesus in his glory with his angels in 70 A.D.?

Matt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

This is exactly the same. Do you have any historical records of this? When Jesus came as a poor baby in a manger, the whole wide world knows about it. How come nobody knows that he came in 70 A.D.?

Matt 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Jesus was speaking to his disciples here. He was warning them against Jews, not the Romans.

Matt 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Bet you never noticed that before did you?

James 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

How does this prove Jesus came in 70 A.D.?

What do you mean Matthew 23? What verse(s) do you want me to consider?

The days of Noe are Jesus showing that when Jesus comes it will be a worldwide event, not a local event like the destruction of Jersusalem.

Why go to the mountains? Because Jesus is going to divide Mt. Olives and give them a valley to escape from the nations surrounding them (Zech 14:4-5). The burning of the earth is after his thousand year reign.

1 Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Peter is saying be ready, for Jesus is coming. Peter also told believers to be patient, and spoke of scoffers who would say where is his coming? Proves nothing for your position.

2 Pet 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

This actually argues it will be a long time before Jesus was to come, as men would get impatient and ask "where is the promise of his coming?" This argues against Jesus coming in just a few short years.

We are living in the last days.

I don't need Greek, I have an infallible Bible in English, why do I need to know Greek?

Nothing you have shown here proves Jesus came in 70 A.D.. You will take offense at this, but you are doing the same things the Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups have done, selecting verses to try to piece together a doctrine you have already predetermined. The JW's and other groups have done the same thing numerous times.

Trust me, when Jesus comes you and I and everyone else will know it.

 

[Grasshopper]

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

How does this prove Jesus came in 70 A.D.? The scriptures say every eye will see him. Do you have any historical records of people seeing Jesus in his glory with his angels in 70 A.D.?

Avoided the question once again. You said verse 28 refers to the Transfiguration, so what do you do with verse 27? Pretend its not there I guess.

Matt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

This is exactly the same. Do you have any historical records of this? When Jesus came as a poor baby in a manger, the whole wide world knows about it. How come nobody knows that he came in 70 A.D.?

Avoided the question once again. He told Caiaphas he would see the son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven. Did he see it or didn't he?

Matt 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Jesus was speaking to his disciples here. He was warning them against Jews, not the Romans.

Matt 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Bet you never noticed that before did you? (see Matthew 23, so yea, I've seen it before.)

Avoided the question again:

Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come

Did the Son of man come before they finished going through the cities of Israel or are they still doing it and still being scourged?

James 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

How does this prove Jesus came in 70 A.D.?

I guess if you ignore the "coming draweth nigh" part it proves nothing.

What do you mean Matthew 23? What verse(s) do you want me to consider?

Why does your guru believe it speaks of AD70? Why do you believe it is still to our future?

The days of Noe are Jesus showing that when Jesus comes it will be a worldwide event, not a local event like the destruction of Jersusalem.

Then the "days of Noah" refer the second coming at the beginning at the 1000 reign, not the New heavens and New Earth at the end of the 1000 years. Correct?

Why go to the mountains? Because Jesus is going to divide Mt. Olives and give them a valley to escape from the nations surrounding them (Zech 14:4-5). The burning of the earth is after his thousand year reign.

So this verse is not speaking of a time at the end of the 1000 years but before?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

1 Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Peter is saying be ready, for Jesus is coming. Peter also told believers to be patient, and spoke of scoffers who would say where is his coming? Proves nothing for your position.

If this is saying Jesus is coming, then it must be "at hand" because that is what Peter said. Did you ever wonder why the scoffers were asking where is the promise of His coming? Perhaps because they understood it would be in their generation or it was at hand. Why would they understand it that way? Because that is what Jesus and the NT writer taught them!

We are living in the last days.

So it is your understanding the last days began in the 1st century and carry on throughout Church History?

I don't need Greek, I have an infallible Bible in English, why do I need to know Greek?

I just wanted everyone reading this to again this this statement by you.

Nothing you have shown here proves Jesus came in 70 A.D.. You will take offense at this, but you are doing the same things the Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups have done, selecting verses to try to piece together a doctine you have already predetermined. The JW's and other groups have done the same thing numerous times.

Do JW's believe in a 1000 year Kingdom reign?

Questions you chose not to answer:

1.What about Daniel 2 and the timing of the Kingdom?

2.What about Micah 1?

 

[Winman]

I had answered most of your questions when everything got erased (using my daughter's laptop-what a pain.)

I have to go early tonight, I have a big road trip early in the morning. But I should get back to you tomorrow evening.

 

[Grasshopper]

I had answered most of your questions when everything got erased (using my daughter's laptop-what a pain.)

I have to go early tonight, I have a big road trip early in the morning. But I should get back to you tomorrow evening.

Nothing more defeating than having everything typed out then losing it. Happened to me numerous times. Travel safe and I'll catch you tommorrow........although Dallas-Washington play tommorrow night. Maybe monday.:laugh:

 

[Winman]

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Avoided the question once again. You said verse 28 refers to the Transfiguration, so what do you do with verse 27? Pretend its not there I guess.

I didn't avoid your question whatsoever, it is a question that cannot be answered. Nothing in this verse states when Jesus will come again. This verse could apply to 10,000 A.D. as easily as 70 A.D.. Your question was, "What do you do with Matt 16:27?

Matt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Avoided the question once again. He told Caiaphas he would see the son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven. Did he see it or didn't he?

First, I sincerely doubt Caiaphas was even alive in 70 A.D. He was appointed high priest in 18 A.D.. Now let's assume he was young, only 30 years old when this happened. That means in 70 A.D. he would have been 82 years old. It is far more likely that he was much older than 30 years old when appointed high priest, these positions normally go to much older and experienced men. If he was 50 years old in 18 A.D., he would have 102 years old in 70 A.D..

But the answer is that every eye will see Jesus when he comes, not just the living, but those who have long perished. Job himself said this.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job shall see Jesus at the resurrection of the living, Caiaphas will see Jesus at the resurrection of the dead. Notice it says Jesus is sitting. This is the great white throne in Revelations, the judgement.

Matt 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matt 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Avoided the question again: Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Did the Son of man come before they finished going through the cities of Israel or are they still doing it and still being scourged?

Many scholars believe Jesus was speaking to his disciples here. I personally do not believe this. I believe Jesus is speaking of Jews who will convert to Christ during the great tribulation. They will be persecuted by the Jews and the anti-christ who will be sitting in the temple of God. Many will be beheaded, but not all, some will escape and be alive when Jesus returns.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

James 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

I guess if you ignore the "coming draweth nigh" part it proves nothing.

You focus on the word "nigh" and completely overlook the phrase "Be patient therefore", the word "waiteth" and the phrase "and hath long patience for it" and "Be ye also patient". So, there is four times more indication in this passage that it will be a long time till Jesus returns than there is that he will come very quickly.

Now, that should get your attention. It shows you are looking only for those words or phrases that support your doctrine, while overlooking or ignoring words or phrases that contradict it. Is that the proper way to study the scriptures?

Then the "days of Noah" refer the second coming at the beginning at the 1000 reign, not the New heavens and New Earth at the end of the 1000 years. Correct?

I believe so yes. I believe this is the great tribulation. Read Revelations and look at all the plagues that will come upon the earth. When the 4 angels in Rev 9 are released, they alone will kill 1/3 of all the men on earth.

Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

I think even you would agree that did not happen in 70 A.D. I believe that immediately after the rapture of believers that the anti-christ, the son of perdition will be revealed. He will come on the scene suddenly. The first 3 1/2 years will be good, and the world will worship him as God, he will sit in the temple. At this time he will persecute Christians. But in the middle of the tribulation he will turn on the Jews. During the last 3 1/2 years God will release his plagues on the earth.

Now, that said, I don't think for one second I understand this all. This is very difficult scripture, very learned men have debated this book for centuries. But this is what I believe from reading these scriptures.


Why go to the mountains? Because Jesus is going to divide Mt. Olives and give them a valley to escape from the nations surrounding them (Zech 14:4-5). The burning of the earth is after his thousand year reign.

So this verse is not speaking of a time at the end of the 1000 years but before?

I think so. I personally believe this to be the armies of the world, also spoken of as a flood in Revelations 12.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The woman is Israel. She will flee into the wilderness through the great valley created when Mt. Olives divides in two. I have also come to believe that this army will follow after the Jews and perhaps be swallowed up in a great earthquake, or perhaps Mt. Olives will come back together upon them.

This is exactly as when the Jews fled from the Egyptians. God opened up the Red Sea. In the future it will be Mt. Olives. They will flee through the valley, the army will persue after them as Pharaoh did and be destroyed.

No one taught me this, I have come to this belief by reading the scriptures and noticing the similarities between Moses dividing the Red Sea, and Jesus dividing the Mount of Olives. I could be wrong, but the similarities are striking.

I am going to cut this post off here, it is too long, I will post a second post to answer your other questions.

 

[Winman]

2nd half

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

1 Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Peter is saying be ready, for Jesus is coming. Peter also told believers to be patient, and spoke of scoffers who would say where is his coming? Proves nothing for your position.

If this is saying Jesus is coming, then it must be "at hand" because that is what Peter said. Did you ever wonder why the scoffers were asking where is the promise of His coming? Perhaps because they understood it would be in their generation or it was at hand. Why would they understand it that way? Because that is what Jesus and the NT writer taught them!

You are being ironic. You are actually arguing that Jesus had to come soon just as these scoffers did. And Peter was telling them that God is coming very soon, but in his perspective, not man's. This is the passage where he said:

2 Pet 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

We are living in the last days.

Peter is showing that it will be a long time before Jesus returns, and says some men will become impatient and unbelieving saying, "where is the promise of his coming?"

Right after this Peter explains that God is not slack "as some men count" and explains that a thousand years is but a day to the Lord and vice versa.

2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


So it is your understanding the last days began in the 1st century and carry on throughout Church History?

I believe they also include the tribulation, and possibly also the millenium, and the new heavens and earth.

I don't need Greek, I have an infallible Bible in English, why do I need to know Greek?

I just wanted everyone reading this to again this this statement by you.

I wouldn't have said it if I didn't mean it.

Nothing you have shown here proves Jesus came in 70 A.D.. You will take offense at this, but you are doing the same things the Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups have done, selecting verses to try to piece together a doctine you have already predetermined. The JW's and other groups have done the same thing numerous times.

Do JW's believe in a 1000 year Kingdom reign?

Yes, they do. And they have fixed dates for Jesus's 2nd coming numerous times and been embarrassed. What I am talking about is selecting scripture to build a doctrine, instead of building doctrine from what scriptures says.

Questions you chose not to answer:

1.What about Daniel 2 and the timing of the Kingdom?

2.What about Micah 1?

I'll answer, but not tonight. I just spent at least an hour answering this. If you start demanding I answer you like I am at your beckon call, I won't answer you at all. If you want somebody to answer you, ask with respect.

 

[Grasshopper]

I

Avoided the question once again. You said verse 28 refers to the Transfiguration, so what do you do with verse 27? Pretend its not there I guess.

I didn't avoid your question whatsoever, it is a question that cannot be answered. Nothing in this verse states when Jesus will come again. This verse could apply to 10,000 A.D. as easily as 70 A.D.. Your question was, "What do you do with Matt 16:27?

Of course it can be answered, it is fulfilled before some standing there died:

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

The "verily" connects it to the previous verse. Context destroys your view. As I pointed out earlier you flip the order of events, you have verse 27 being fulfilled thousands of years after verse 28. Just how many gaps do you see in the Bible? You have one in Dan. 9, Matthew 16, Matthew 24, any more?
　

First, I sincerely doubt Caiaphas was even alive in 70 A.D. He was appointed high priest in 18 A.D.. Now let's assume he was young, only 30 years old when this happened. That means in 70 A.D. he would have been 82 years old. It is far more likely that he was much older than 30 years old when appointed high priest, these positions normally go to much older and experienced men. If he was 50 years old in 18 A.D., he would have 102 years old in 70 A.D

But the answer is that every eye will see Jesus when he comes, not just the living, but those who have long perished. Job himself said this.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job shall see Jesus at the resurrection of the living, Caiaphas will see Jesus at the resurrection of the dead. Notice it says Jesus is sitting. This is the great white throne in Revelations, the judgement.

So what you are saying is EVERYONE (Adam on down) who has ever lived will see Jesus coming on the clouds. Scripture please. Or just another poor attempt to avoid an obvious teaching of scripture. You have a strange way of taking the Bible "literally".

Matt 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matt 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Avoided the question again: Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Did the Son of man come before they finished going through the cities of Israel or are they still doing it and still being scourged?

Many scholars believe Jesus was speaking to his disciples here.

Interesting, you have insisted you never read their works:

"I have owned one commentary in my life, Matthew Henry, and that was given me as a gift. I almost never read it, and do not even know what happened to it, I haven't seen it in nearly 15 years."

Now you seem to be quite familiar with their works. Perhaps you haven't quite been truthful with me.

There is a reason the scholars think Jesus was speaking to His disciples, it's because that is who Jesus was speaking to!


Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
　
What do you do, just rewrite the Bible when you run into problems. He is talking to His disciples and EVERYONE knows it. Your objection fails miserably. No wonder you didn't want to answer questions.
　

I personally do not believe this. I believe Jesus is speaking of Jews who will convert to Christ during the great tribulation. They will be persecuted by the Jews and the anti-christ who will be sitting in the temple of God. Many will be beheaded, but not all, some will escape and be alive when Jesus returns.

You personally believe this not because scripture teaches it but because you have to in order to avoid what it clearly teaches. No better definition of "private interpretation" than this.

James 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

I guess if you ignore the "coming draweth nigh" part it proves nothing.

You focus on the word "nigh" and completely overlook the phrase "Be patient therefore", the word "waiteth" and the phrase "and hath long patience for it". So, there is three times more indication in this passage that it will be a long time till Jesus returns than there is that he will come very quickly.

See, you ignored "coming draweth nigh" again. "Be patient" goes with "draweth nigh". There was no reason for James' audience to be patient for an event that would not happen for 1000's of years. The Judge standing at the door give further evidence of a soon occurance:

Jas 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
If He is standing at the door, that means He's getting ready to come through it.

Now, that should get your attention. It shows you are looking only for those words or phrases that support your doctrine, while overlooking or ignoring words or phrases that contradict it. Is that the proper way to study the scriptures?

I think you just did that, ignored the very phrase I was asking about, "draweth nigh".

Then the "days of Noah" refer the second coming at the beginning at the 1000 reign, not the New heavens and New Earth at the end of the 1000 years. Correct?

I believe so yes.

Is this not the flood account:

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


The flood is used in reference to the New Heavens and New Earth.
　

 

[Grasshopper]

II

I believe this is the great tribulation. Read Revelations and look at all the plagues that will come upon the earth. When the 4 angels in Rev 9 are released, they alone will kill 1/3 of all the men on earth.

Well, you contradict yourself, earlier you said it kill all men, not 1/3rd:
"Noah's flood was not a local event, it killed all men on earth. And it will be the same when Jesus returns. So the destruction of Jersualem as bad as it was, was not what Jesus was speaking about. When he returns the whole world will know it."

So who enters the 1000 year MK if everyone is killed?

Secondly God promised never to destroy the world again:

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

I think even you would agree that did not happen in 70 A.D. I believe that immediately after the rapture of believers that the anti-christ, the son of perdition will be revealed. He will come on the scene suddenly. The first 3 1/2 years will be good, and the world will worship him as God, he will sit in the temple. At this time he will persecute Christians. But in the middle of the tribulation he will turn on the Jews. During the last 3 1/2 years God will release his plagues on the earth.

Right out of "The Late Great Planet Earth"

Now, that said, I don't think for one second I understand this all. This is very difficult scripture, very learned men have debated this book for centuries. But this is what I believe from reading these scriptures.

You didn't get that from reading the scriptures alone, and everyone knows it. Unless you consider the Margin Notes of the Scofield Bible "scripture".

I personally believe this to be the armies of the world, also spoken of as a flood in Revelations 12.


The woman is Israel. She will flee into the wilderness through the great valley created when Mt. Olives divides in two. I have also come to believe that this army will follow after the Jews and perhaps be swallowed up in a great earthquake, or perhaps Mt. Olives will come back together upon them.

Shoot, just make it up as you go. Anything to support your view.

No one taught me this, I have come to this belief by reading the scriptures and noticing the similarities between Moses dividing the Red Sea, and Jesus dividing the Mount of Olives. I could be wrong, but the similarities are striking.

The Exodus motif fits perfectly with a preterist view:

If this is saying Jesus is coming, then it must be "at hand" because that is what Peter said. Did you ever wonder why the scoffers were asking where is the promise of His coming? Perhaps because they understood it would be in their generation or it was at hand. Why would they understand it that way? Because that is what Jesus and the NT writer taught them!</B>

You are being ironic. You are actually arguing that Jesus had to come soon just as these scoffers did. And Peter was telling them that God is coming very soon, but in his perspective, not man's.

Why did the scoffers expect a soon return? Because they understood what the NT writers meant when they said "at hand" and "near".

So it is your understanding the last days began in the 1st century and carry on throughout Church History?</B>

I believe they also include the tribulation, and possibly also the millenium, and the new heavens and earth.

This might be the most absurd thing yet, and that's saying something. Basically you render the phrase "last days" meaningless.

Do JW's believe in a 1000 year Kingdom reign?

Yes, they do. And they have fixed dates for Jesus's 2nd coming numerous times and been embarrassed. What I am talking about is selecting scripture to build a doctrine, instead of building doctrine from what scriptures says.

Sounds just like you. You're coming up with stuff that would make a JW proud.

Questions you chose not to answer:

1.What about Daniel 2 and the timing of the Kingdom?

2.What about Micah 1?

I'll answer, but not tonight. I just spent at least an hour answering this. If you start demanding I answer you like I am at your beckon call, I won't answer you at all. If you want somebody to answer you, ask with respect.

I've been asking for days. You have yet to address either one.

I first asked about Micah 1 on 12/14 on page 1 post #5. I asked again on the fourth page. Care to guess how many times you've posted on various threads since then?

I first brought up the coming of the Kingdom in post #48, 12/23.
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　

 

[Winman]

Grasshopper

This is useless. You are not going to change my mind, and I am not going to change your's. I looked at your profile once, you have been debating this for many years, and nobody has changed your opinion. I hardly intend to spend 5 years debating with you. Believe what you want, but don't expect many people to agree with you. It is obvious to most people that Jesus did not come in 70 A.D.. If he did, the whole wide world would be completely aware of it.

I am not giving up because I cannot show you much evidence that you are in error, I can. But others have shown you this and you are impervious to any evidence shown. I simply don't enjoy debating forever.

That said, we can still discuss many issues here, but I'm not going to waste anymore time on this.

 

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper

This is useless. You are not going to change my mind, and I am not going to change your's. I looked at your profile once, you have been debating this for many years, and nobody has changed your opinion. I hardly intend to spend 5 years debating with you. Believe what you want, but don't expect many people to agree with you. It is obvious to most people that Jesus did not come in 70 A.D.. If he did, the whole wide world would be completely aware of it.

I guess you will also give up debating Calvinist for the same reason?

I am not giving up because I cannot show you much evidence that you are in error, I can.

Too bad you never gave any here.

I simply don't enjoy debating forever.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
http://www.baptistboard.com/search.php?searchid=806233

That said, we can still discuss many issues here, but I'm not going to waste anymore time on this.

I guess you have found it easier to ask questions than to answer them.

I think there is a reason you never answered my last 2 questions. In answering them, your entire system would crumble.:wavey: