Is man born totally depraved or can they become depraved over time?

[Skandelon]

Calvinism teaches that mankind is born Totally Depraved, which doesn't mean that all men are as evil as they could be, but it does mean they are totally unable to understand and accept the truth revealed in the gospel message. But does this line up with scripture? You will notice the bolden underline phrases reveal man's capacity to clearly see and understand God's invisible qualities and his eternal power and divine nature. You will see they "knew God", they had "the knowledge of God" and "exchanged the glory of the immortal God...and the truth of God." That their thinking wasn't always futile, that their hearts were not always darkened, and defiled. But instead, they BECAME this way over time and God thus GAVE THEM OVER TO THEIR DEPRAVITY.

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them overto shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

But, Calvinists will no doubt argue, that this was and is inevitable for every man who are not the "elect of God." And that men do not have the ability to do otherwise. However, the scripture clearly teaches that man can do otherwise.

24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

Paul contrasts one group of people with another showing that before men have grown calloused to the revelation of God (as was Israel) they indeed can and will listen. They, "MIGHT SEE, HEAR, UNDERSTAND AND TURN."

Can a Calvinist explain these texts? Thank you.

 

[Skandelon]

No takers? Come on Calvinists, do your simple pat answers not work on this one? (I'm provoking you here)

 

[ReformedBaptist]

How about telling us what you now believe rather than endless posts about what your against.

 

[Skandelon]

How about telling us what you now believe rather than endless posts about what your against.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the election where we voted you to be the forum policeman. Where do I cast my vote?

You obviously have not been reading many of my posts. Most of my posts have been about what I believe on the subject of the nature of man, the judicial hardening of Israel and how that relates the mistakes I believe Calvinism makes in interpreting the scripture...mistakes mind you that I made for many years and would like others to avoid if possible. Now, with all due respect, either engage with the topic of the post or move on. Thank you.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the election where we voted you to be the forum policeman. Where do I cast my vote?

You obviously have not been reading many of my posts. Most of my posts have been about what I believe on the subject of the nature of man, the judicial hardening of Israel and how that relates the mistakes I believe Calvinism makes in interpreting the scripture...mistakes mind you that I made for many years and would like others to avoid if possible. Now, with all due respect, either engage with the topic of the post or move on. Thank you.

If you can't handle being called out, then maybe you shouldn't post.

I log in every now and again. And when I logged in tonight all your posts some challenge or another against Calvinism.

If that is how you want to be known on the BB that is your business. Take my reply to as a friendly obsevation...or not. Doesn't matter to me.

 

[Skandelon]

If you can't handle being called out, then maybe you shouldn't post.

I log in every now and again. And when I logged in tonight all your posts some challenge or another against Calvinism.

If that is how you want to be known on the BB that is your business. Take my reply to as a friendly obsevation...or not. Doesn't matter to me.

And if you can't handle being rebuked for calling me out and hijacking my post then maybe you shouldn't post... Doesn't matter to me.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

And if you can't handle being rebuked for calling me out and hijacking my post then maybe you shouldn't post... Doesn't matter to me.

Do I come accross as a man who can't handle the heat? :laugh:

All right sonny boy, let's help you get on the right track. When you start a thread with "Calvinists believe" try to put something in there that actually carries some weight...not the internet discussions your having, not your little debates with weirdo calvinists, but something of real substance.

You have made yourself the opponent of Calvinism. You have in this thread set yourself against the doctrine of Total Depravity.

Now...here is what you should be trying to refute:

Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, Of Sin, And of the Punishment Thereof
1._____ Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.
( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3 )
2._____ Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3._____ They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4._____ From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

5._____ The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )

That is from the 1689 Confession, but you will find it identical in substance to the Westminster. These are standards for Calvinist doctrine.

 

[Skandelon]

Do I come accross as a man who can't handle the heat? :laugh:

Which is the exact question I was attempting to imply in my response to you.

All right sonny boy, let's help you get on the right track. When you start a thread with "Calvinists believe" try to put something in there that actually carries some weight...not the internet discussions your having, not your little debates with weirdo calvinists, but something of real substance.

You have made yourself the opponent of Calvinism. You have in this thread set yourself against the doctrine of Total Depravity.

Now...here is what you should be trying to refute:



That is from the 1689 Confession, but you will find it identical in substance to the Westminster. These are standards for Calvinist doctrine.

What specifically have I stated in my OP that misrepresents Calvinism RB? We can go back and forth copy and pasting creeds and catechisms if you want, but I'd rather not. I'd rather deal with the substance of the debate, and if I have misrepresented your view then spell it out and I will deal with that...

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Which is the exact question I was attempting to imply in my response to you.


What specifically have I stated in my OP that misrepresents Calvinism RB? We can go back and forth copy and pasting creed and catechisms if you want, but I'd rather not.

I am creating a widely accepted standard. You say your against Calvinism. Let's make sure you are.

Are you against this teaching:

From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )


In other words, are you saying that people are not wholly inclined to all evil? Are you teaching that somewhere in man is something unaffected by the fall of Adam...some part of man that was unaffected?

If so, what part?

Let add, I am not ignoring your whole post. I have read it and re-read it. I am taking it one step at a time. Your OP question is "Is man totally depraved?" Which I am taking to be the subject of your thread, the doctrine of total depravity. I am stating, for my part, and as a standard, the Calvinist position on the subject...using a widely accepted creed of most Calvinists. There is not a Calvinist I know that would not affirm the above statement.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Alright, heading to bed. I will pick this up tomorrow God willing.

 

[Winman]

From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

I disagree with this. Unsaved man is not utterly disabled from doing good. I have posted the scriptures concerning Cain numerous times.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Read for yourself. Did God say Cain could give an acceptable sacrifice and that God would accept it?

Do you agree that is what God is saying to Cain here, or do you disagree? If you disagree, then please explain.

It this is true, then the doctrinal statement you provided is in error from the scriptures.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Man is totally depraved. He is dead in trespasses and sins. Romans 1-3 teaches how completely he is in sin and its' effect.

I believe man's actions can become more totally depraved over time. There are clearly well intentioned and good acting people who are not saved. They are stilll dead in sin. They still have a sin nature. But they can become more depraved in their actions.

I think this is what Romans 1 is talking about. God gives them over to the end result of their sin. Mankind does not get any better over time. He gets worse. How he lives out that sinful nature gets worse and worse.

(by the way, I am not a Calvinist)

 

[Skandelon]

Man is totally depraved. He is dead in trespasses and sins. Romans 1-3 teaches how completely he is in sin and its' effect.

I believe man's actions can become more totally depraved over time. There are clearly well intentioned and good acting people who are not saved. They are stilll dead in sin. They still have a sin nature. But they can become more depraved in their actions.

I think this is what Romans 1 is talking about. God gives them over to the end result of their sin. Mankind does not get any better over time. He gets worse. How he lives out that sinful nature gets worse and worse.

(by the way, I am not a Calvinist)

You are arguing for the doctrine of Original Sin while claiming to support the doctrine of Total Depravity. We all hold to the doctrine of Original Sin, but we are talking about man's natural ability to willingly respond in faith when confronted by the powerful revelation of God.

Sure men are sinners and wouldn't seek God on their own, but God seeks sinners and the question is do we have the ability to respond to Him and his revelations? I think scripture is clear that we do...as presented in the OP.

 

[Johnv]

Is man born totally depraved or can they become depraved over time?

The simple answer is "yes". Depravity has an adverse affect on one's salvific state, and one's righteousness. A man is born salvifically depraved. In a man's life, his actions contribute to his righteous depravity.

The whole answer is a lot more complex than that, but that's the "calvinism for dummies" answer.

 

[Tom Bryant]

You are arguing for the doctrine of Original Sin while claiming to support the doctrine of Total Depravity. We all hold to the doctrine of Original Sin, but we are talking about man's natural ability to willingly respond in faith when confronted by the powerful revelation of God.

Sure men are sinners and wouldn't seek God on their own, but God seeks sinners and the question is do we have the ability to respond to Him and his revelations? I think scripture is clear that we do...as presented in the OP.

The Bible teaches original sin and total depravity. It also teaches that man will not come to God unless the Spirit draws him. And that the Holy Spirit's work is mysterious in that He goes where He chooses to go. But it also teaches that man can choose to believe or not believe.

I try as best as I can to be faithful to what I believe the Bible teaches, so I don't really have a theological system that is easily catalogued and pigeon holed. Most of our systems of theology attempt to limit God's work in salvation to what we can understand and write down logically. I am entirely comfortable with my position being seemingly illogical when it comes to God's work in salvation.

 

[Skandelon]

"Calvinism for dummies" was the term I was thinking of too.

 

[Skandelon]

The Bible teaches original sin and total depravity. It also teaches that man will not come to God unless the Spirit draws him.

And what mean's has God chosen to draw all men to himself? Some secret irresistible calling? No, we both agree that is not the case.

The means God has chosen is the Holy Spirit wrought gospel truth spoken by Holy Spirit filled people (the church). The Gospel and the work of the church is a work of the Spirit's drawing. Yes, its resistible, but its his appointed means. I don't see where in scripture that more is needed, required or even discussed.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

And what mean's has God chosen to draw all men to himself? Some secret irresistible calling? No, we both agree that is not the case.

The means God has chosen is the Holy Spirit wrought gospel truth spoken by Holy Spirit filled people (the church). The Gospel and the work of the church is a work of the Spirit's drawing. Yes, its resistible, but its his appointed means. I don't see where in scripture that more is needed, required or even discussed.

Again, as someone claiming to have been a calvinist for 10 years, we would expect you to understand and be able to articulate (since you make yourself the opponent of calvinism) what effectual calling/irresistable grace is. Back to the basics for you:

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

 

[Skandelon]

Again, as someone claiming to have been a calvinist for 10 years, we would expect you to understand and be able to articulate (since you make yourself the opponent of calvinism) what effectual calling/irresistable grace is. Back to the basics for you:

Again, you will need to specifically quote what I have said that appears to misrepresented your dogma and than explain why...then I will address it!

I can copy and paste a creed everytime you post something, but that accomplishes nothing.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Again, you will need to specifically quote what I have said that appears to misrepresented your dogma and than explain why...then I will address it!

I can copy and paste a creed everytime you post something, but that accomplishes nothing.

I thought you were astute enough to connect the dots.

And what mean's has God chosen to draw all men to himself? Some secret irresistible calling?

You are confusing and confounding two biblical teachings, the means by which God effectually calls His elect, and effectual calling. Please actually read the doctrinal statement.