Another Poll for everyone on the Baptist Board to see what side of the fence youre on

[Skandelon]

Please tell us which of these statement best represents what you believe about salvation:

1. God has chosen to provide the means and ability for all sinful men to willingly turn from their sin and be saved.

2. God has chosen to save a select number of people who he irresistibly draws to Himself while passing by all others who were born without the ability to willingly repent from their sin and be saved, and who will spend eternity burning in a lake of unquenchable fire; all to the praise of God's glorious grace and justice.

 

[kyredneck]

Aren't you going to vote in your own poll?

 

[Marcia]

Aren't you going to vote in your own poll?

Some people like to wait to vote because if they are the first to vote, everyone knows what they voted. Some wait for others to vote first out of politeness.

 

[jcjordan]

how about neither? I'm very close to #2, but it's not quite worded correctly.

 

[Marcia]

People who do polls should always, always, always offer the option of "neither" or "other" or "not sure." I always do this on my polls. This way, everyone can see the results.

 

[jcjordan]

to be clear, it implies that one group has able to respond while the other group is unable. I would agree if it was clear that both were unable.

 

[Skandelon]

to be clear, it implies that one group has able to respond while the other group is unable. I would agree if it was clear that both were unable.

I assume you mean the two groups represented in Number 2? Those being irresistibly drawn are enabled by the effectual/irresistible drawing, right? Only the rest, the non-elect, remain unable to willingly believe, right? How is that not accurate?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I assume you mean the two groups represented in Number 2? Those being irresistibly drawn are enabled by the effectual/irresistible drawing, right? Only the rest, the non-elect, remain unable to willingly believe, right? How is that not accurate?

As someone who claims to have been a Calvinist for 10 years, we would have expected you to know that salvation is to the glory of GOd's grace, while the eternal punishment of the wicked to the glory of his justice.

 

[Skandelon]

As someone who claims to have been a Calvinist for 10 years, we would have expected you to know that salvation is to the glory of GOd's grace, while the eternal punishment of the wicked to the glory of his justice.

grace for the first part and justice for the latter...I edited it just for you :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Tom Butler]

How about 3.
God, in his mercy and grace, has chosen out of the whole number of lost humanity, all of whom are deserving of eternal punishment, to save some, and to encompass both the means and the ends within his purpose to save, to his glory.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Or 4

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.

 

[Skandelon]

How about 3.
God, in his mercy and grace, has chosen out of the whole number of lost humanity, all of whom are deserving of eternal punishment, to save some, and to encompass both the means and the ends within his purpose to save, to his glory.

Fine, but how is number 2 not an accurate description of what you believe? (though I admit, its purposefully worded to be hard to swallow)

 

[Skandelon]

How about 3.
God, in his mercy and grace, has chosen out of the whole number of lost humanity, all of whom are deserving of eternal punishment, to save some, and to encompass both the means and the ends within his purpose to save, to his glory.

Just a sugar coated way of saying the same thing. You still haven't shown what it is about number 2 that is inaccurate.

 

[Johnv]

Couldn't vote. There's no "both" option in the poll.

 

[Skandelon]

Couldn't vote. There's no "both" option in the poll.

I know I'm going to regret asking but how does number 1 also represent you? Before you respond, keep in mind that it says, "willingly turn" so the whole, men are "able but not willing" argument doesn't work.

 

[Johnv]

You're presuming that choice 2 negates choice 1, and/or vice versa. The doctrine of election doesn't negate a person's need to willingly believe and accept.

 

[Skandelon]

The doctrine of election doesn't negate a person's need to willingly believe and accept.

No one has said that Calvinism's view of election negates a person's need to willingly believe, it only indicates that no one can willingly believe unless they are irresistibly drawn (in the Calvinistic system).

 

[ReformedBaptist]

No one has said that Calvinism's view of election negates a person's need to willingly believe, it only indicates that no one can willingly believe unless they are irresistibly drawn (in the Calvinistic system).

Yes, the Bible teaches against man's ability. This is why some more recent men of God have referred to the doctrine of total depravity as total inability.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That verse speaks to ability. No man CAN. I don't one flippy do-da whether someone says I am trying to prove calvinism from this Scripture or not. What this text says is that NO MAN CAN COME TO JESUS....except the Father draw that person.

End of story.

 

[Skandelon]

That verse speaks to ability. No man CAN. I don't one flippy do-da whether someone says I am trying to prove calvinism from this Scripture or not. What this text says is that NO MAN CAN COME TO JESUS....except the Father draw that person.

Well stated! :thumbs: I agree.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Well stated! :thumbs: I agree.

If you agree with that, then I am at a loss as to what your fighting against. Glad we can agree.